A criticism of MS Word 2008

[bryanschmiedeler]

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Intel

OK it is early in the morning and I am frustrated, but I am frustrated because I cannot get something done that should very straightforward. I want to post the issue and see if I am missing something. I hope that I am:

I have many many old documents from my days in academia that are in the Word 1.x -5.x format. Really need to get them up to date, so I took advantage of the special offer on getting Office Student and Teacher edition in the winter and am getting around to doing this. I am pretty good with AppleScript and a very very knowledgeable Macintosh user. This should be easy.

First, my version doesn't come with some Automator actions that purport to easily convert docs. I really dislike multiple versions of the same software. Does MS know how frustrating this is for users. I know there are arguments for it, I will just put my frustrations at this and the arguments for multiple versions aside for now.

Second, I cannot double click the documents and open them in MS word directly as there is a security threat. Now stop and think of this for a moment. I am trying to double-click a document for which I have a newer version of the program (albeit a much newer version) and it is a SECURITY THREAT. This is not the Mac way. Opening a document is a security threat? I have to go to the program and open the document directly. OK, frustrating but move one.

Third, I will simply applescript this and be done with it. But the aforementioned security concern prevents this. So much for Applescript.

Now I am pig-headed, or diligent depending on how you look at it. I am not going to open hundreds of documents individually and then convert them. This is 2008 for God's sake. So I find someone with Automator and we come to problem Four. Automator has the same issue as AppleScript - the old versions prevent you from using Automator from opening as it is a security threat.

Please, I have to have missed something. Office is a very sophisticated program put out by the largest software company in the world. So please tell me, how can I convert these documents without opening them individually. I am sure that I have missed something.

Sincerely,

Bryan

1) It's stupid that you have several different versions of Office; just have one damn version.
2) The files I have to open are "dangerous". I can't even double-click them and open them directly in Office. Office says "Oh these are dangerous, you must open them up directly from Office."
3) So you have to open up Word and then open up the doc.
4) SOOOOO, automator actions won't work as they give you this error.
5) AppleScript even won't work as you get this error.

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Bryan -

What level is your installation of Office 2008 updated to? I haven't had
access to any files that predate Word version 6.0, but it was my impression
that updating to 12.1.1 or 12.1.2 obviated the security warning issue.

I'm afraid my knowledge of Apple Script is lacking as well, but I don't see
how it could convert the files without opening them, so if I'm wrong in my
belief the message would still have to be dealt with. If it can be done
there most likely is an existing script, so perhaps someone will be kind
enough to share it. Google may also offer some hits. If not you may want to
consider a modest investment in a program called MacLinkPlus Deluxe. It's
the boss of the board for file conversions & does do batches. It may be the
most efficient solution:

http://www.dataviz.com/products/maclinkplus/index.html

My main reason for replying, however, is to clarify one point. Office 12 for
Mac is Office 12 for Mac - there are no "different versions" of that
release. The suite is packaged in 3 different *editions* however, but that
has nothing to do with the features of the 4 primary applications. The
distinction is in (a) the licensing and (b) what "extras" are included in
the package... Much like the various trim lines for any specific model of
vehicle.Those "extras", of course, are reflected in the pricing of those
editions. The one exception is that Exchange Support for Entourage isn't
included in the Home & Student Edition & can't simply be added in later.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Michel Bintener]

Hi Bryan,

what exactly does the security error say? Also, have you made sure that you
are running the latest, up-to-date version of Office 2008? Office 2008 SP1
introduced a security feature that prevents you from opening a certain type
of Word document whose creator code has been changed by a third-party
application; the 12.1.2 update, however, disables that warning as many users
have stated, quite vociferously, that they do not like this security feature
at all.

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Intel

OK it is early in the morning and I am frustrated, but I am frustrated because
I cannot get something done that should very straightforward. I want to post
the issue and see if I am missing something. I hope that I am:

I have many many old documents from my days in academia that are in the Word
1.x -5.x format. Really need to get them up to date, so I took advantage of
the special offer on getting Office Student and Teacher edition in the winter
and am getting around to doing this. I am pretty good with AppleScript and a
very very knowledgeable Macintosh user. This should be easy.

First, my version doesn't come with some Automator actions that purport to
easily convert docs. I really dislike multiple versions of the same software.
Does MS know how frustrating this is for users. I know there are arguments for
it, I will just put my frustrations at this and the arguments for multiple
versions aside for now.

Second, I cannot double click the documents and open them in MS word directly
as there is a security threat. Now stop and think of this for a moment. I am
trying to double-click a document for which I have a newer version of the
program (albeit a much newer version) and it is a SECURITY THREAT. This is not
the Mac way. Opening a document is a security threat? I have to go to the
program and open the document directly. OK, frustrating but move one.

Third, I will simply applescript this and be done with it. But the
aforementioned security concern prevents this. So much for Applescript.

Now I am pig-headed, or diligent depending on how you look at it. I am not
going to open hundreds of documents individually and then convert them. This
is 2008 for God's sake. So I find someone with Automator and we come to
problem Four. Automator has the same issue as AppleScript - the old versions
prevent you from using Automator from opening as it is a security threat.

Please, I have to have missed something. Office is a very sophisticated
program put out by the largest software company in the world. So please tell
me, how can I convert these documents without opening them individually. I am
sure that I have missed something.

Sincerely,

Bryan

1) It's stupid that you have several different versions of Office; just have
one damn version.
2) The files I have to open are "dangerous". I can't even double-click them
and open them directly in Office. Office says "Oh these are dangerous, you
must open them up directly from Office."
3) So you have to open up Word and then open up the doc.
4) SOOOOO, automator actions won't work as they give you this error.
5) AppleScript even won't work as you get this error.

--
Michel Bintener
Microsoft MVP
Office:mac (Entourage & Word)

*** Please always reply to the newsgroup. ***

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Bryan:

I am pleased to see that you have not lost your sense of humour, even early
in the morning

Does MS know how frustrating this is for users. I know there are arguments for
it, I will just put my frustrations at this and the arguments for multiple
versions aside for now.

I am sure that Microsoft does not even see an issue with it All large
corporations seem to do the same thing these days: it's called "Marketing".
You make "The full version" and charge more than you realistically think the
market will pay for it. Then you lop off or disable a few bits and sell it
at a lower price. Then you lop off a few more bits and sell it at an even
lower price.

Think General Motors -- American Airlines -- Your Least Favourite HMO -- you
get the idea. In the case of Microsoft Office, the discount is huge, and
they even give you instructions for putting the missing bits back in!

Second, I cannot double click the documents and open them in MS word directly
as there is a security threat. Now stop and think of this for a moment. I am
trying to double-click a document for which I have a newer version of the
program (albeit a much newer version) and it is a SECURITY THREAT. This is not
the Mac way.

Well, it's not the Microsoft Way either The normal response is "remove
the converter completely", end of story, move along.

Let's consider what the issue is. When you open an "old" document, you call
on a very, very old program. It's a separate application that starts and
runs in the background to convert the file. Yes, they could have written it
better: but in 1985 when they DID write it, I guess they made a business
decision that the cost of doing so was not justified. Assuming that they
knew how: which it's likely they didn't -- the industry has learned a lot
about defensive programming in the intervening years. If only I could go
back and change some of MY "suboptimal" decisions from that many years ago
If only I had known then what I know now

So the issue is that we have an old lump of code that was produced in the
days before the Internet existed, before half the world was at war with the
other half, before the the world-leading scientists working for the security
organisations of nation-states lost their jobs in Perestroika and turned to
crime to feed their families. The cost of fixing -- and more importantly,
testing -- the code to secure it against the attacks that are commonplace in
today's computing environment, is horrendous.

This module may not be safe against all attacks, including ones that have
not yet been thought of. Nobody knows whether it is or not. But the cost
of finding out is too high -- a moon shot is starting to seem cheap in
comparison.

Over on the PC side, they did an assessment of the risk, and of the cost of
a replacement, and of the benefits if they spent that money. A file
import-output filter is a large and complex piece of code. Re-writing it
would not "double" the retail price of Office, but close.

Simple decision: on the PC side they just removed the module. The risk is
too high and the fix is too expensive. Nobody on a PC can open those file
types at all: end of story.

On the Mac side, the same sum produces a different result. Because the risk
of Bad Guys with PhDs in Computing Science from Moscow University going
after your Mac is much lower. And some of the things they can get away with
on Windows pre-Vista are not possible on Mac OS under Unix.

So we keep the module. For now. Until someone proves they have exploited
it.

Let's be clear: the problem is not the document. The problem is that it is
theoretically possible to manipulate stuff in a document that is expressed
in the old file format so that it could in turn trick the code in the old
filter module into driving a nail through your operating system and stealing
all your credit card details.

This is the stuff they pay security consultants and researchers a fortune to
work out. The bottom line is that while nobody knows whether there is a
real vulnerability or not, the cost of proving that there is NOT is too
high, and the cost of being wrong is far too high.

Now I am pig-headed, or diligent depending on how you look at it.

Can we go with "diligent" please? It makes my behaviour so much more
socially-acceptable...

Automator has the same issue as AppleScript - the old versions
prevent you from using Automator from opening as it is a security threat.

Thank god for that: there would have been a problem there if they didn't
Both scripting techniques call in to Word through the same pipeline.

Please, I have to have missed something. Office is a very sophisticated
program put out by the largest software company in the world. So please tell
me, how can I convert these documents without opening them individually. I am
sure that I have missed something.

Have you had a look at MacLink Plus? The Deluxe version will get you back
to Word 4.

As far as I am aware, the old formats are "Tagged Text", which means you can
open them in TextEdit. The result will be pretty messy, but you will get
the text out.

Hope this helps

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

 

[William Smith [MVP]]

Have you had a look at MacLink Plus? The Deluxe version will get you back
to Word 4.

From what I've read of this thread you're discussing the WDBN file type
threat. Correct, John?

Some workaround are available including a script written by Corentin
<http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Word2008Issues.html#doubleclick>.

--

bill

Entourage Help Page <http://entourage.mvps.org/>
Entourage Help Blog <http://blog.entourage.mvps.org/>
YouTalk <http://nine.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/youtalk>
Twitter: follow <http://twitter.com/meck>

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Bill:

I am not sure WHAT we're discussing here. The OP wanted to go back to "Mac
Word 1.x to 5.x". I don't think they're even WDBN -- I think this is the
old command-stream format that predates Word 5/6

I also think this poster is hitting the "real" Deprecation, not the "Bad
File Type" Deprecation. In which case, not even Corentin's script will
work.

However, there is only one way to find out, and the user should run
Corentin's script and "hope and pray"

My understanding is that the FIRST attempt at this simply checked the File
Type Code. If it didn't like it, it threw it out of the pram without
looking further.

The SECOND attempt, posted in the latest Service Pack, I think reads the
actual file header as encoded by Word when it saved the file. So it doesn't
care about the File Type and Creator Codes that may be appended by other
applications along the way, it looks in the file itself to see what is
really in there.

But I believe that if what "is really in the file" is one of the deprecated
file types, it still won't open on an "external call", it will require a
"File Open".

I could be wrong: I look forward to hearing whether treatment with
Corentin's script resolves the issue. If it does, then I will have learned
that it is STILL believing the File Type Code.

We shall see!

Cheers

From what I've read of this thread you're discussing the WDBN file type
threat. Correct, John?

Some workaround are available including a script written by Corentin
<http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Word2008Issues.html#doubleclick>.

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

 

[bryanschmiedeler]

[Sorry tried to email responses]

Michel,

The error is this:

"Title uses a file type that is blocked from opening this version."

and then there is more text.

You are correct that the 12.1.2 update resolved this error, but only for some file types. From the web site:

This issue occurs because an issue in Microsoft Office 2008 for Mac Service Pack 1 prevents Word from opening documents correctly when you double-click the document or when you download the document from a Web site.

The Microsoft Office 2008 for Mac 12.1.1 Update resolves this issue for document file types that are used most frequently.

However, the Office 2008 for Mac 12.1.1 Update continues to prevent Word from opening a few older Word for Mac document file types when you use the methods that are mentioned in the "Symptoms" section. The update does this because these documents may pose a security threat.

My docs some of those in the "few older Word for Mac document file types" that 12.1.1 still will not open.

Another MS person suggested I purchase MacLinkPlus, which I am investigating. The list price is $70 or so. I have to say it seems kind of strange that I have to purchase a program to automate the opening up of Word docs in an older version in the newest version of Word. Seems like MS could provide a utility to fix the problem?

I am curious to know what security issue this is trying to prevent???

Bryan

 

[bryanschmiedeler]

Hi Bryan:

I am pleased to see that you have not lost your sense of humour, even early
in the morning

On 12/09/08 7:59 PM, in article (e-mail address removed)9absDaxw,
"(e-mail address removed)" <[email protected]>
wrote:

Does MS know how frustrating this is for users. I know there are arguments for
it, I will just put my frustrations at this and the arguments for multiple
versions aside for now.

I am sure that Microsoft does not even see an issue with it All large
corporations seem to do the same thing these days: it's called "Marketing".
You make "The full version" and charge more than you realistically think the
market will pay for it. Then you lop off or disable a few bits and sell it
at a lower price. Then you lop off a few more bits and sell it at an even
lower price.

Think General Motors -- American Airlines -- Your Least Favourite HMO -- you
get the idea. In the case of Microsoft Office, the discount is huge, and
they even give you instructions for putting the missing bits back in!

Not all large corporations. I think Apple has done a good job in this regard. One version of the OS (remember when Jobs joked at a keynote that there were going to be three versions of 10.5 - and then showed them all having the same features and price). When Jobs came in he saw that it was almost impossible to figure out what product to buy - so many damn Mac versions, and the reasons were purely bureaucratic. One division of Apple could release a Mac that was only slightly different from what was released by a different division because they served different "marketing" segments, i.e. one sold to Best Buy, Sears, CompUSA and one sold to education or something stupid like that. Apple does have consumer and prosumer versions of some of its products, but usually they have different names. So for example I recently moved up to Aperture from iPhoto as I needed more features. I am sure there are other examples of companies with successful market simplification schemes, it is just I know more about computes.

And I just hate marketing. I have had to support marketing departments in the past (I am a computer programmer) and really just have developed a disdain for them.

Second, I cannot double click the documents and open them in MS word directly
as there is a security threat. Now stop and think of this for a moment. I am
trying to double-click a document for which I have a newer version of the
program (albeit a much newer version) and it is a SECURITY THREAT. This is not
the Mac way.

Well, it's not the Microsoft Way either The normal response is "remove
the converter completely", end of story, move along.

Let's consider what the issue is. When you open an "old" document, you call
on a very, very old program. It's a separate application that starts and
runs in the background to convert the file. Yes, they could have written it
better: but in 1985 when they DID write it, I guess they made a business
decision that the cost of doing so was not justified. Assuming that they
knew how: which it's likely they didn't -- the industry has learned a lot
about defensive programming in the intervening years. If only I could go
back and change some of MY "suboptimal" decisions from that many years ago
If only I had known then what I know now

So the issue is that we have an old lump of code that was produced in the
days before the Internet existed, before half the world was at war with the
other half, before the the world-leading scientists working for the security
organisations of nation-states lost their jobs in Perestroika and turned to
crime to feed their families. The cost of fixing -- and more importantly,
testing -- the code to secure it against the attacks that are commonplace in
today's computing environment, is horrendous.

This module may not be safe against all attacks, including ones that have
not yet been

 

[bryanschmiedeler]

Mr. Jones,

My Office version is up to date.

I have discovered that neither automator nor AppleScript can solve this problem. There is some security reason that prevents Office from opening docs in this very old version by double-clicking them. You must open the program and go to file open. I tried Applescripting that and it didn't work. Other posts have pointed me in the direction on what the security reasons are, and I am going to look into them out of curiosity.

I will look into MacLinkPlus.

I understand your distinction between versions and editions, but don't necessarily agree with it. It is a little bit of semantics; for the end user still has to decide what version/edition they should or can buy. At least Office for the Mac has less versions/editions than the Win counterpart. And let's not talk about the original plan for the, what 14, versions/editions of Vista...

Having said all that, I do think that Office 12 for the Mac is a very good product that has not gotten enough positive reviews. I have owned various versions of the product since before there was an Office for the Mac; the first MS product for the Mac that I bought was Word 5.1, which was just a great great word processor. I used that for years and years (obviously, as I have lots of docs in that old format). This is a fine version. And I "upgraded" from a really old version by buying Office 11 at that really low price of what, $110 dollars (before 12 came out) and got 3 licensees for 12 when it was released for $10 or so. Good move. I might not have upgraded without that great deal (which I imagine was partly used to clear out old stock of 11).

The comparison between Word 12 and Pages 3 is an interesting one. I tried to use Word 12 to put together a small document on a trip to Costa Rica where I wanted have lots of pictures and text flowing around the pics, etc. I know it was doable in Word, but I got frustrated very quickly and used Pages and it was very very easy to do. Having said that, I would never use Pages for any serious writing. To my mind it is more a consumer page layout program, and it does that very well. But the comparisons between Office and iWork are just silly, they are two products addressing very different markets and very different needs.

Finally, kudos for reversing the decision to drop Macros (or more accurately include them in the next version). I read on the MS blog how difficult it would be to include them, but really it is very very important for the corporate environment.

Thank you for your response and for listening.

Bryan

 

[bryanschmiedeler]

John,

I have tried all of these workarounds and none of them work.

Bryan

 

[bryanschmiedeler]

I "hoped and prayed" and ran the script but it did not work. Let me provide you with as much info as I can.

2. In the "Get Info" box on the file the Kind is listed as Word 1.x-5.x document.

3. Using FileExaminer we can see that the Type is indeed WDBN
and that the Creator is MSWD.

4. Since Corentin's script didn't work, then from your post, I understand that Word is ignoring the Creator/File Type code of the file (the meta data) and is instead looking inside the header of the doc and seeing what is there, and what is in there after running the script is still WDBN and MSWD, so Word won't open the doc.

Is this correct?

And if so, I wonder if MacLinkPlus will work as a solution? It would depend on how they detect what format the file is and what they do after detecting it.

Bryan

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Bryan:

Sorry, I lost the thread a bit here... You have tried "File>Open" and the
file won't open?

Open the file in a text editor and have a look at the last few lines. Along
with a lot of other garbage you should see in plain text " Word Document

MSWordDoc  Word.Document.8" if it is a W8BN or Word.document.6" if it's
a WDBN.

If you see "neither" of those, chances are the file is a Word 2 file format,
and we DON'T have a converter for that.

If you want to send me a copy, I can tell you for sure, because I am pretty
sure I do still have a Word 2 converter kicking around here -- There was
one in Word 97.

Cheers

John,

I have tried all of these workarounds and none of them work.

Bryan

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

 

[Clive Huggan]

On 19/9/08 8:20 PM, in article (e-mail address removed)9absDaxw,
"(e-mail address removed)" <[email protected]>
wrote:

... I wonder if MacLinkPlus will work as a solution? It would depend on
how they detect what format the file is and what they do after detecting it.

Bryan,

Take a look at the heading "Macintosh word processing formats" at
http://www.dataviz.com/products/maclinkplus/mlp_xlators.html

I haven't personally used MacLinkPlus for some years, but enough people have
raved about it (or, in some cases, come close to worshipping it) in this
newsgroup that I doubt you'll be dissatisfied (no-one has posted here
dissatisfied).

I expect to be using it again on some of my old Word 5.1a files if I don't
get them saved in later format before I leave Tiger...

Let us know how you go if you do get MacLinkPlus.

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================

 

[bryanschmiedeler]

John,

I keep trying to send the file to you, but it always bounces. What email address should I use?

Bryan

 

[Phillip Jones]

What person?

John,

I keep trying to send the file to you, but it always bounces. What email address should I use?

Bryan

--
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616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
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<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Bryan:

The one in my signature (e-mail address removed)

However: Any fancy graphics, HTML formatting, URLs etc will make it look
like Spam, so plain-text

The mail server will bounce anything bigger than a megabyte, so small is
also good.

Cheers

John,

I keep trying to send the file to you, but it always bounces. What email
address should I use?

Bryan

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]