Add MS Word-style Outlining

[Dan Clark]

OneNote is excellent for capturing bullet and numbered lists. However, it
has one major flaw - the outlining does not indent like MS Word.

In Word, if you type some header text, hit return and then click the bullet
or numbered list button, the BULLETS or NUMBERS are left-aligned with the
header.

In OneNote, when you click the bullet or numbered list button, the TEXT is
left-aligned with the header row, but the bullets or numbers are hanging out
to the left. Besides looking bad, it 's the header text is not clearly
defined.

This needs to be fixed so that outlining in OneNote works like Word's
outlining.

Regards,

Dan.

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http://www.microsoft.com/office/com...a8f3-da6b10a24264&dg=microsoft.public.onenote

 

[Irina Yatsenko (MS)]

In OneNote setting bullets/numbers doesn't demote the paragraph but you can
demote it manually - select the paragraphs you want to demote and hit TAB (or
Increase Indent button on the formatting toolbar). This means that the user
has separate control over bullets/numbers and promoting/demoting - a design
decision you might not agree with but a design decision nonetheless.

 

[Grant Robertson]

In OneNote setting bullets/numbers doesn't demote the paragraph but you can
demote it manually - select the paragraphs you want to demote and hit TAB (or
Increase Indent button on the formatting toolbar). This means that the user
has separate control over bullets/numbers and promoting/demoting - a design
decision you might not agree with but a design decision nonetheless.

I actually prefer OneNote's way of bulleting paragraphs. Far too often
Word does all kind of weird things with bulleted paragraphs when all I
want is to put a bullet in front of an existing paragraph.

 

[Chris_Pratley \(MS\)]

Dan, you might also use View/Toolbars and open the Outlining toolbar, which
has lots of useful commands.

Outlining is easy enough in Onenote - just hit Tab when you expect to write
child elements in the outline. The outlining toolbar even has the buttons to
do body text, hide levels, and so on.

Chris Pratley (MS)

 

[Terry]

Dan, you might also use View/Toolbars and open the Outlining toolbar, which
has lots of useful commands.

Outlining is easy enough in Onenote - just hit Tab when you expect to write
child elements in the outline. The outlining toolbar even has the buttons to
do body text, hide levels, and so on.

Chris Pratley (MS)

 

[Dan Clark]

Grant,

Obviously you didn't understand my point. I've been using outlining in
multiple forms for a LONG time. Hitting <tab> is how most outliners work.
That is NOT the point.

The point is:

1) that there is no ruler or other way to reset tab stops, and
2) the default tab stops are way too wide, and
3) When you click a bullet it automatically sticks out to the LEFT of the
header.

I.e., without the ruler and inability to reset tab stops, information
structuring capabilities are reduced.

Frankly, I do NOT understand Microsofts' fascination with tablet computers.
I have NO use for one and in the last three years, I've see exactly ONE
person using a tablet like it is supposed to be used - drawing on the screen.


OneNote is the ONLY Microsoft product that I know of that can effectly
MANAGE the bits and pieces of information that clutter our professional
lives. In my case, it is server names, account numbers, build processes,
login procedures, small projects, to do lists, weekly reports, etc. Every
other Microsoft product is a specialist product that it great for its
purpose, but way to cumbersome to manage the bits and pieces of textual
information.

Instead of focusing on OneNote's multi-dimensional management capabilities
for non-structured information, Microsoft insists on pushing the "tablet"
capabilities. That's a massive waste, IMO.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Ben M. Schorr - MVP]

Frankly, I do NOT understand Microsofts' fascination with tablet
computers.
I have NO use for one and in the last three years, I've see exactly ONE
person using a tablet like it is supposed to be used - drawing on the
screen.

Well, my grandfather once said "We can't all like the same things,
otherwise everybody'd be after your grandma."

That said, I use a Tablet PC as my primary work machine and I find it to
be a very powerful tool. It's not for everybody, to be certain, but I use
(and see them used) it quite extensively and find it to be tremendous.

And I get a lot of amazed looks when people see me standing in an
elevator, in tablet mode, reading and replying to e-mail or taking notes
on a meeting I just had or...

As they continue to get more powerful and lighter their utility will
continue to grow.

--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP-OneNote/Outlook
Operations Coordinator
Stockholm/KSG - Honolulu
Microsoft OneNote FAQ:
http://home.hawaii.rr.com/schorr/computers/onenotefaq.htm

 

[Dan Clark]

Ben,

The key issue here is not whether some people will use tablet computers.
You and others find them useful. I have two laptops, neither are tablets. I
have no use for them. But, that's NOT the issue...

The issue is that OneNote in a new category of software for Microsoft that
is VERY useful on virtually ALL non-server platforms - workstations, laptops
(and tablets), standard PDAs, and cell-phone PDAs!!! It is (or can be) a
great tool for managing multi-dimensional, non-structured data.

My frustration with Microsoft is that they treat my feedback as "dumb user
needs help". I can't stand marketing pablum. It indicates that they 1) are
not listening or 2) don't have the capacity to see the opportunity that is
presented - for every tablet user, there are probably 10-20 non-tablet users
who would use OneNote if it is marketed correctly!!!

I've been working in the analytical space for 26 years. This includes all
aspects - development, support, marketing and sales, AND as a user. For
example...

In the early 90's, I was hired by a consulting company to do a complete
evaluation of Lotus Notes. I found Lotus Notes to be a very nice
multi-dimensional text database with an easy-to-use development/user front
end, and strong communcation and synchronization capabilities.

Lotus Notes was developed by a small company in Massachusetts. It was
subsequently purchased by Lotus. The devlopment company knew what they had.
The Lotus Notes customers knew what they had. BUT, the marketing
department at Lotus wasn't filled with the brightest bulbs around. They did
NOT understand Lotus Notes. They marketed it as a glorified e-mail system.
Completely BRAINDEAD marketing!!!

I and several others where I work use OneNote to capture and manage the
massive amount of detail associated with our job. For example, I'm working
on a small database ETL project that involves creating about 50-60 SQL Server
objects...

I have an outline of the project. I create a checkbox icon for each SQL
Server object and other steps that I'm developing. If I decide a new object
or step is required, I just add a new one. When I complete development and
unit test on an object, I check off the checkbox icon. When my manager wants
a status, I e-mail the project page to him. He deletes the old page in his
OneNote pages and snaps in my new page. Simple and easy!!!

And, do NOT tell me the we should use project management software. I've
used project management software since 1987, and that includes EVERY version
of Microsoft Project. It's a great tool for a project manager on big
projects. My ETL project is actually a sub-project of a larger project.
Our project manager uses to manage the overall project. My sub-project is
two bullets and a milestone on his project. But MS Project is way too
complex and difficult to use for smaller projects or sub-projects like my
piece. Managing my little ETL project with Microsoft Project is like using
the proverbial 10 Lb sledgehammer to swat a fly.

My feedback about OneNote is related to enhancements needed to better
capture and manage textual, non-structured data. I don't want a "Pen" to
draw pictures and write; I want the ability to add simple arrows and lines!
I don't want rulers and paragraph formatting to make it pretty; I want those
improvements to make the data more readable! I don't want more voice input;
I want to sync it with a PDA. (Right now, there is NO reason for me to
switch from my Palm PDA to a Pocket PC. If Microsoft developed a two-way
sync PocketPC version of OneNote, I'd switch in an instant!)

So, am I frustrated? Yes! Microsoft needs to get their heads out of the
trees and see the forest! OneNote is a new category of app and not simply a
tablet data entry tool!!!

OK, flame off!

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Ben M. Schorr - MVP]

My frustration with Microsoft is that they treat my feedback as "dumb
user needs help". I can't stand marketing pablum. It indicates that
they 1) are not listening or 2) don't have the capacity to see the
opportunity that is presented - for every tablet user, there are
probably 10-20 non-tablet users who would use OneNote if it is marketed
correctly!!!

I'm not sure where you're getting that from, Dan. All I said was that
Tablet PCs are very useful for some people. Lots of users run OneNote on
non-Tablet machines, of course. The OneNote team is very happy to get
feedback and user feedback is the #1 driver of the direction of the
development of the new version.

I and several others where I work use OneNote to capture and manage the
massive amount of detail associated with our job.

Yes, so do I.

I have an outline of the project. I create a checkbox icon for each SQL
Server object and other steps that I'm developing. If I decide a new
object or step is required, I just add a new one. When I complete
development and unit test on an object, I check off the checkbox icon.
When my manager wants a status, I e-mail the project page to him. He
deletes the old page in his OneNote pages and snaps in my new page.
Simple and easy!!!

O.K., so what's the problem?

My feedback about OneNote is related to enhancements needed to better
capture and manage textual, non-structured data. I don't want a "Pen"
to draw pictures and write; I want the ability to add simple arrows and
lines!

It's on the wish list and may well make it into the next version.

I don't want rulers and paragraph formatting to make it pretty; I want
those improvements to make the data more readable! I don't want more
voice input; I want to sync it with a PDA.

Also on the wish list.

(Right now, there is NO reason for me to switch from my Palm PDA to a
Pocket PC.

There are sync utilities for OneNote with Palm -- though I haven't tried
any of them.

If Microsoft developed a two-way sync PocketPC version of OneNote, I'd
switch in aninstant!)

Well, sometime late next year you may have to go shopping for a new PDA
then.

--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP-OneNote/Outlook
Operations Coordinator
Stockholm/KSG - Honolulu
Microsoft OneNote FAQ: http://www.factplace.com/onenotefaq.htm

 

[Chris H.]

Dan, you're barking at the wrong trees here. Ben and the other MVPs who try
to assist users in this public newsgroup are not, repeat NOT,
spokesmen/women for Microsoft. We are only volunteers to assist peers in
this and other newsgroups.

We are not employed by Microsoft, and Microsoft does not tell us what to
post. I post a lot about Tablet PCs because I have three, enjoy the usage
and my computer life has taken on a new sense of freedom in using them. I
also have two Media Center Edition computers in our home, and only spend
enough time with them usually to program in what my wife or three daughters
want recorded off the satellite TV service.

With my Tablets, I spent even less time on my other desktops than I did
three years ago. Why should I sit at a desk when I can be in a recliner in
the living room, watch ESPN, recorded TV shows (Xbox as an Extender to the
MCE machines) or on the back deck enjoying fresh air. I can do everything
on my Tablets that I used to be strapped to my computer desk to accomplish.

OneNote isn't "just" for Tablet PCs. We who post in this newsgroup know
that. The majority of users of OneNote are non-Tablet PC owners, but that
doesn't make us bad. Perhaps we're ahead of the curve a bit. Perhaps
we're jaded because we do have Tablets. But at least we're here trying to
sort out issues, for free. Volunteering to dig into problems and find
solutions.
--
Chris H.
Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
Associate Expert
Expert Zone -

 

[Richard]

My frustration with Microsoft is that they treat my feedback as "dumb user
I actually see his point. He wasn't really talking about Tablet PCs
(although he ranted and opened that topic himself), or which version of
outlining (ON or Word) you like. Rather, he was asking can OneNote be
improved to do what he needs it to do and do it better, and suggested a
flexibility be built in to reset tabs (something I would find helpful too).

For my $2... I used OneNote similarly to track stray information as well,
but also use it to supervise 11 dissertation students, with weekly flagged
checklists for what they are doing, information on their progress through
specified steps, links to multiple drafts of their dissertation, as well as
links to other stray files they send me for reference or approval. I can't
imagine how I would do this as well as I do without OneNote.

This is sort of your fault Microsoft folks, but in a good way OneNote is
probably the most flexible piece of software I've ever used, and given that,
people will adapt it in a wide range of ways to use for things that might not
have occurred to you. That's partly why I read these kinds of posts - to see
what others use it for and how. But given that, you'll feel the pressure
from us to make it all things for all of us. Hard for you, easy for us....
but a tab ruler wouldn't seem *too* much to add in

Thanks for running these forums!
Rich