ADP or C#/VB.NET

[bill]

Hi!

How do Access ADP projects stack up against a dotNet solution?

There are about 150 users, with 10-20 concurrent users. The user base is
increasing gradually.

The advantages I see to the ADP solution are
- better reporting
- quicker development
- easier events to use

The advantages I see to the dotNet solution are
- code reuse is easier
- multiple developers can work on the project more easily
- ado.net is disconnected and more efficient, but ADPs require continuous
connections for each user
- dotNet requires less bandwidth
- OOP benefits (inheritance, etc.)
- easier distribution with web forms

I don't know how the performance differs between an ADP project and a
c#/vb.net project.

I would appreciate any input.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Philipp Stiefel]

How do Access ADP projects stack up against a dotNet solution?

There are about 150 users, with 10-20 concurrent users. The user base is
increasing gradually.

The advantages I see to the ADP solution are
- better reporting
ACK

- quicker development

Depends.
It's definitely right in small projects but in really
huge projects .net may be more efficient and quicker
due to code resue/OO-benefits.

- easier events to use

What does that mean?

The advantages I see to the dotNet solution are
- code reuse is easier
ACK

- multiple developers can work on the project more easily

When using a source code control tool, it won't make
that much difference.

- ado.net is disconnected and more efficient, but ADPs require continuous
connections for each user

Well, right, but sometimes you do *want* a permanent
connection for locking purposes. Disconnected data-access
is a big hype nowadays but I don't think it is the silver
bullet to any kind of concurrency issue.

- dotNet requires less bandwidth

With good frontend design there shouldn't that much difference.

- OOP benefits (inheritance, etc.)
ACK!

- easier distribution with web forms

That doesn't fit in with the rest of the pro/cons. If you want
a web-application you simply can't use Access as frontend. Period.
If you don't want one, it doesn't matter at all.

I don't know how the performance differs between an ADP project and a
c#/vb.net project.

Usually the real performace issues are connected to
queries to the server. So the frontend-programming-
language has not much of an impact.

best wishes
Phil

 

[XMan]

How about reports. There's no reports builder in C# and VB.Net.

 

[aaron.kempf]

exactly... ADP ROCKS!!!

it is the best reporting platform in the world

 

[Philipp Stiefel]

How about reports. There's no reports builder in C# and VB.Net.

Yep, I ACKd Reports as a big pro for Access.

But nevertheless there a some good reporting engines, like
Crystal Reports, List&Label or ActiveReports available
for the .net-environment. Some of them are almost as good
as Access Reports. ;-)


Cheers
Phil

 

[Peter Row]

Hi,

Other things to consider are your familiarity with ADP and .NET.

Are you a real programmer or an Access programmer?
If you have used other languages then the only thing Access has going for it
is the reporting; which as someone else said there are other solutions for
..NET i.e. ActiveReports, hell if it's that much of an issue, you could give
your users the ability to create their own reports by storing an Access MDB
in the SQL Server you connect to with .NET. Then the users can add their own
reports and everyone else will get them.

Access is all very well as long as you play by it's (stupid) rules!
If you try and do anything the right way, using OO etc... then forget it as
it will stop you at every turn.

The other thing you haven't mentioned is the fact that .NET comes with a
shed-load more UI controls than Access.
So unless you want to use lots of 3rd party controls so that your ADP app
doesn't look crap and Access like then .NET is the way.

Bye,
Pete

 

[Andrew Backer]

IMHO you are going to have your work cut out for you replicating in any
useful way what access does for you with forms, editing, etc. I just
tried to do it, and it may be possible with a team, but one guy trying
to bang out a whole app from scratch with the crap controls MS supplies
is pretty difficult.

If you can spring for some expensive 3rd party controls, you will
probably be better off, though it will still take an order of magnitude
longer to come up with a product.

None of this applies if you are a guru/hero/etc and can write two
programs at the same time, each with one hand, and in different
languages

- Andrew

 

[chakatheapeman]

Access dose Rock when it comes to getting it done fast. But, it rock
old school and all the cool kids are listening to .Net. They thin
rock sucks. But, cool doesn’t pay the bills; and as long as MS i
around Rock will never die.

I would suggest prototyping in Access and leveraging the sequel serve
for managing as much business logic as possible. The powerhouse of th
multi-user environment is really the database. Every application ha
different requirements in respect to data; however a properly deigne
SQL db should have no troubles supporting 20–30 users, if a commo
sense practices are used in creating the user interface. For Instance
designing and interface to be exclusive in retuning records instead o
inclusive.

Example: A drop down box could be empty until the user enters it.

Also, consider your design methodology. J2EE suggests that rapi
prototyping is often the most efficient way to approach applicatio
development. Access is an excellent tool for this. It also ha
definite short comings.

Example: the ADO errors collection is not exposed this makes i
somewhat difficult to catch and handle all the errors a user coul
encounter and inform them of appropriate action.

However, any database development including stored procedures and use
defined functions will be available for future work, allowing for th
migration to a different enterprise architecture or user interface

 

[Peter Row]

Hmmm.... the cool kids???
I've lost count of the times when using Access to do the frontend when it
has screwed me over so bad I've wanted to fly to America and bunch Bill
Gates.
Just because you can do something fast doesn't mean anything if the result
is a poorly constructed piece of crap.

There is a ton of stuff that to do in Access requires Win API calls etc...
etc... to get something done whereas the wealth of classes in the .NET
framework makes things much easier. The creation of a form is just as simple
in .NET as in Access and the available controls that you get for free in
..NET a massively better. Admittedly the data binding side of things takes
more effort in .NET, but at least you have control not like in Access where
again it screws you all the time.

Just because only 1 guy is working on the app doesn't mean that is a reason
to use Access.

If the app is going to be used for any sort of business important related
function for you client don't use Access.

Bye,
Pete

 

[chakatheapeman]

Admittedly Access is a limited framework. If I were to put m
programmer hat on I might say,Do it in Java with J2EE or .Net. Doing i
the access way is novice. However, sometimes a limited framewor
lessens the feature freak and spiraling requirements that you get wit
on open architecture, especially, in a prototyping phase.

Most of my business apps are pretty boring; features can easily b
covered by utilizing access and VBA. As a project manager I am worrie
about the overall success of our endeavourers, as judged by the sponsor
and the user base. My users like access to a large degree. What the
don’t like is not my fault. Most importantly they can get their wor
done.

To me, a programmer who can’t get an office application to work, wh
responds with physical threats against Bill Gates, is a person wh
needs supervision? I do agree in many cases it is better to just star
by utilizing the full .net framework. This may not be true in al
cases. Me personally Access’s inability to expose ADO errors has m
disenfranchised with it. However, my migration away from it will b
slow and deliberate. Any migration to it should be done fast
furiously because results are needed despite the shortcoming

 

[aaron.kempf]

almost as good.. shit you can't do nested subreports.. except ONE level
i mean,.. crystal sucks

 

[aaron.kempf]

PETE

WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH THE REAL PROGRAMMER VS ACCESS PROGRAMMER
QUESTION

YOU WANT TO FUCKING SAY THAT TO MY FACE YOU CONCEITED ASSHOLE

GO AND PLAY WITH YOUR .NET LITTLE KID

more controls? what the hell do you need??
all you need is a textbox, listbox, combo, etc..

all you need is COMBO BOXES THAT WORK (like in Access)

..NET SUCKS you can develop it in Access a LOT faster

i would reccomend lookiing at Data Access Pages if you know much HTML..
I love the Office Web Components; they are a very exciting option if
you want to make a FAST web based solution without any coding

BTW, can .net do ANYTHING without coding?
Dreamweaver runs circles around VS for 'real hardcore webdev'

 

[aaron.kempf]

doing it the access way.. what do you mean?? delivering it ON TIME?

Access is a much better SQL Server option; for reporting and data entry
than any Visual Crack that Microsoft sells.

Visual Studio just isn't ready for prime time.

Access is already installed on these end-users machines; I wouldn't
hesitate to look at a complex ADP. Make sure you do the DB design
correctly; normalize as much as you can.. and then when VS 2005 and
it's actually a COMPLETE PRODUCT-- as in edit and continue.. then you
can rewrite it as a .NET website.

I just think that Microsoft was drunk when they came out with
VS2002/2003.. i mean.. how do you FORGET to add a feature like edit and
continue?

 

[Andrew Backer]

I'll put it this way... I have a large app, it does a lot, works great,
everyone loves it, etc. There are a few areas where I wish I could do
stuff in .Net, mostly when I have to deal with the outside world
(import/export). I also miss good ol' statics. That said, it's kinda
sad that it's still a royal pain in the ass to do in Winforms what It
takes 30 seconds to do in access.

I am not opposed to doing my data binding by hand, if I have to, but
generally I don't need to or have the time to deal with it. For
smaller forms I sometimes use unbound, but 1/2 the time it's not worth
it. Access does the data perfectly.

I do notice that everyone talks down to those of us who use Access. I
have done my share of work in java, .net, vb, and access, and every
time I need a simple app I go to access. I can't count the # of
totally crappy .net apps I have seen, but it's no harder to do a proper
access app (it's just VB you morons) than a regular VB. Despite all
the morons out there, wasn't VB the most popular programming language
ever?

There are occasional instances when I wish there were a few more
controls like the date picker, but so far that has been pretty rare.
Access does what almost everyone needs, and it does it fast and cheap.


If you are a shitty programmer like chaka, then you will write a shitty
app, regardless of the environment. Chaka, what would it take to write
a simple DB application (no back-end only bullshit) for a small company
in J2EE. You have to be kidding. Some of us live in the real world,
here, not some corporate coccoon where time, money, and failure hardly
matter. Every time I talk to people like you they can barely come up
with a reason. Bet you hate VB too, because it's not 'real' enough for
you. Give it 2 years, I'm sure you'll find another language to be
arrogant about.

T