Archives Search / Newsgroups

[George Seese]

This is not a question about Word VBA itself.

The newsgroup archives can be searched at this Google web site:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en

1. From Outlook Express, what's the easiset way to get there?
Shouldn't there be a one-click method?

2. I suggested to Google that the Newsgroup name should default
to the current newsgroup.

3. Is there an explanation for each newsgroup?

Thanks,
George

 

[Mark Tangard]

George,

1. From Outlook Express, what's the easiset way to get there?
Shouldn't there be a one-click method?

Outlook Express reads mail and news. Google is a website, i.e.,
not either of those things. I haven't used OE for some years,
but unless there's been a major enhancement in the customizations
available, you're probably out of luck getting a one-click route
to Google. What I do is keep an shortcut to Google on my Windows
QuickLaunch bar. (Just right-click on an empty part of the Google
page, choose Create Shortcut, then drag the shortcut -- it'll be
place on your desktop -- to the QuickLaunch bar.)

2. I suggested to Google that the Newsgroup name should default
to the current newsgroup.

That would be nice, but again, Google is a website -- it has no
way of knowing what newsgroup is your "current" newsgroup or even
what program you're using to read newsgroups with. What *would*
likely be possible is for the Google site to save a cookie that
remembers the last group you searched there. (Maybe it already
is possible but well-hidden....)

3. Is there an explanation for each newsgroup?

Long ago in a galaxy far away when there were only about 20,000
newsgroups, DOS newsreaders like TIN made available a special
column for the brief description of each group. I've never seen
it since then.

 

[Jay Freedman]

George,
[snip]

3. Is there an explanation for each newsgroup?

Long ago in a galaxy far away when there were only about 20,000
newsgroups, DOS newsreaders like TIN made available a special
column for the brief description of each group. I've never seen
it since then.

For the microsoft.public.word.* and related newsgroups, there are short
descriptions at http://www.mvps.org/word/FindHelp/WhichNewgrp.htm.

 

[George Seese]

Thanks Mark and Jay,
The QuickLaunch is very handy.

I want to avoid keying in the Newsgroup name. Don't see any way to copy it
from the newsgroup itself.
I know OE is a different object than a web page, but Google Archive web page
is an extension of the Newsgroups.
There should be an easy way to get there.
Why doesn't Microsoft run the Archive or provide a "connection" for Google?

This is another way to do it:
Send "Search" email to myself with this info in body:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en
microsoft.public.access.gettingstarted
microsoft.public.excel.programming
microsoft.public.powerpoint
microsoft.public.word.newusers
microsoft.public.word.tables
microsoft.public.word.vba.beginners
microsoft.public.web.authoring
---
Made a new folder "ZZ" so it appears in OE Local Folders right above
msnews.microsoft.com.
Put "Search" email in folder ZZ.
I click on it, select the Newsgroup, copy it.
Click on the Google link. Paste the Newsgroup name in.

George

George,
[snip]

3. Is there an explanation for each newsgroup?

Long ago in a galaxy far away when there were only about 20,000
newsgroups, DOS newsreaders like TIN made available a special
column for the brief description of each group. I've never seen
it since then.

For the microsoft.public.word.* and related newsgroups, there are short
descriptions at http://www.mvps.org/word/FindHelp/WhichNewgrp.htm.

 

[Mark Tangard]

I know OE is a different object than a web page, but Google
Archive web page is an extension of the Newsgroups.

No, it really isn't. It's an entirely different part of the
online world; it just happens to have collected everything
ever written in the newsgroup part (once called "Usenet"),
which predates, by several years, the rise of the web itself.
For a long time there was no such index, then God invented
DejaNews (essentially the predecessor of Google) and there
was light, of a sort.

There should be an easy way to get there.

There's all kinds of third-party software that facilitates,
or claims to facilitate, easy access to things. I also
hate typing in the newsgroup names, so I use a keystroke
expander program called ShortKeys (www.shortkeys.com) to
do that for me. (Still would be nicer if Google remembered
the last one filled in, granted.)

Why doesn't Microsoft run the Archive

Oooh, you may soon hear bones ratting in the distance. Run.

 

[George Seese]

Mark,

A March 2001 article reports: "Google purchased the Deja newsgroup archives
last month."
http://www.searchenginewatch.com/sereport/article.php/2163511

In December 2001 there are reports that "Google has assembled the complete
20-year-Usenet archive of more than 700 million messages and offers the
collection for free."

Did Google purchase just the archives?
As time goes on, does Google continue to obtain postings to add to the
archives?
Does anybody own or manage the Newsgroups?

When I said "the Google Archive web page is an extension of the Newsgroups",
I'm referring to my Usage of the Newsgroup.
If I can't find an article using Newsgroup Find, the next thing to do is
search the Newsgroup archives.

A Newsgroup reader such as Outlook Express should have an easy way to start
Google Archive and paste the current
Newsgroup name into the Google site.
I've heard that Microsoft is not interested in improving OE.
Does Google have a Newsgroup reader?
George

 

[Jay Freedman]

Answers in-line below...

Mark,

A March 2001 article reports: "Google purchased the Deja newsgroup
archives last month."
http://www.searchenginewatch.com/sereport/article.php/2163511

In December 2001 there are reports that "Google has assembled the
complete 20-year-Usenet archive of more than 700 million messages and
offers the collection for free."

Did Google purchase just the archives?

If you read the article you cited, you would have come to this paragraph:

"What Google took away from Deja's Austin data center through the Deja
acquisition wasn't the preconfigured equipment and network for the service.
Instead, Google literally offloaded just the raw archives themselves."

As time goes on, does Google continue to obtain postings to add to the
archives?

Yes, Google adds to the archives daily. I can usually see new posts there
within a few hours.

Does anybody own or manage the Newsgroups?

Emphatically no! The Usenet newsgroups are probably the largest functioning
example of cooperative anarchy the world has ever seen. There are some
newsgroups that are moderated or managed, but most are not. The system
consists of thousands of news servers that "peer" with each other -- pass
along posts -- and each server is owned and operated by a company, ISP, or
individual. Some servers carry newsgroups that others don't. For example,
there are orphan newsgroups that used to run on msnews.microsoft.com, but
long after MS stopped hosting them the groups continue to run independently
on other servers.

When I said "the Google Archive web page is an extension of the
Newsgroups", I'm referring to my Usage of the Newsgroup.
If I can't find an article using Newsgroup Find, the next thing to do
is search the Newsgroup archives.

A Newsgroup reader such as Outlook Express should have an easy way to
start Google Archive and paste the current
Newsgroup name into the Google site.

That's an interesting request. I don't expect to see it happen, though.

I've heard that Microsoft is not interested in improving OE.

That's an unfounded rumor, and I don't believe it. I'll wait and see.

Does Google have a Newsgroup reader?

There isn't any separate program like OE, but you can read and post with
your browser at http://www.google.com/grphp.

 

[George Seese]

There isn't any separate program like OE, but you can read and post with
your browser at http://www.google.com/grphp.

This may be what I'm looking for.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=microsoft.public.word.vba.beginners
is the specific site I made into a desktop shortcut.

Altho Google does not have the last two replies in this post that are
available in OE and another newsreader I've downloaded - Xnews.

But it does provide an automatic Newsgroup name for the archive search.
Thanks for the suggestion and info.
George

 

[Mark Tangard]

Emphatically no! The Usenet newsgroups are probably the largest functioning
example of cooperative anarchy the world has ever seen. There are some
newsgroups that are moderated or managed, but most are not. The system
consists of thousands of news servers that "peer" with each other -- pass
along posts -- and each server is owned and operated by a company, ISP, or
individual. Some servers carry newsgroups that others don't. For example,
there are orphan newsgroups that used to run on msnews.microsoft.com, but
long after MS stopped hosting them the groups continue to run independently
on other servers.

Thanks, Jay, for answering this before I saw it, theeby
saving me from the coma I would likely have sunk into....

George, what we see often in earnest folks like yourself is
the understandable but false assumption that the Internet,
and especially Usenet, is at all managed, owned, etc. --
that somebody is "in charge" of it, overseeing the books,
paying the staff, lubing the forklift, etc., and by
extension that some official entity entertains suggestions
about how to change it. (I've noticed this is especially
common among AOL users, probably because their online
universe seems -- and is -- more controlled than any other.
What those folks don't know is that the Internet was born
from chaos and still retains the benefits of that ancestry.)

The main reason Microsoft doesn't run Google is probably
because Google isn't software. In addition, since Google
archives ALL newsgroups, it isn't likely MS would enjoy
hosting a massive archive nearly all of which does not
relate to its products in any way.

Google is also free (as was DejaNews) and thus in theory
could easily be moved, renamed, sold, or even dissolved
tomorrow. Were that to happen, a special button built
into Outlook Express leading to www.google.com would look
pretty funny, kind of like the upside-down airplane stamp,
but without the cachet of a collector's item. It's
also theoretically possible that another archive could
evolve, tomorrow, with far superior features, making a
hardwired link to Google into a Grade A anachronism.
Bottom line: The Internet is at base far more volatile
than application software; it's a whole different category
of entity, So conjuring the notion that they ought somehow
to be tightly integrated is a bit of mindblower.

 

[George Seese]

The confusing part is that Google *purchased* the archives. Doesn't that
indicate ownership?
If Google goes out of business, can they sell whatever they purchased?
Or are the archives always stored in servers around the world, and any
company can download them into another archive system?
If the archives are in the Newsgroup servers, can the News reader access
them? In my OE newsreader,
it goes back to Feb 2003. Is there a configuration change that enables OE
access to the archives?

An update on my earlier post:

This may be what I'm looking for.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF->8&group=microsoft.public. word.vba.beginners
is the specific site I made into a desktop shortcut.

This is not a good link because the link details seem to change. That's why
I wasn't seeing updates.
So there's no way to go directly to "microsoft.public.word.vba.beginners",
as you can in a newsreader like OE or Xnews.
You need to click on http://www.google.com/grphp and enter the words
(word.vba.beginners is sufficient).
If this is true, it makes Google a less convenient newsreader.

In Xnews, you can go to the Google Search page by simply doing Ctrl D.
So why can't OE do it?
And if Google goes out of business, just change it.
And why isn't Google software?
Thanks,
George

 

[Jonathan West]

The confusing part is that Google *purchased* the archives. Doesn't that
indicate ownership?

Depends what you mean by ownership. Physical posession of the data? Yes,
they have that. Ownership and copyright of the search algorithms used to
access the data? They have that as well. Copyright over the posts?
Definitely not, that rests with the individual authors. (Its an interesting
legal question as to whether Google has the right to make copies of and
archive newsgroup posts...)

If Google goes out of business, can they sell whatever they purchased?
Yes.

Or are the archives always stored in servers around the world, and any
company can download them into another archive system?

Generally not. Most news servers only store a few days to a few weeks of
posts. An archive of the whole of the newsgroups back to when Usenet started
is an awful lot of gigabytes.

If the archives are in the Newsgroup servers, can the News reader access
them?

They aren't. Usually only the last few days to few weeks of posts are
retained on news servers.

In my OE newsreader,
it goes back to Feb 2003. Is there a configuration change that enables OE
access to the archives?

It is not OE that would need to be changed, but the server that OE is
connecting to. OE can't access data that physically isn't there at the other
end of the line.

An update on my earlier post:

This is not a good link because the link details seem to change. That's why
I wasn't seeing updates.
So there's no way to go directly to "microsoft.public.word.vba.beginners",
as you can in a newsreader like OE or Xnews.
You need to click on http://www.google.com/grphp and enter the words
(word.vba.beginners is sufficient).
If this is true, it makes Google a less convenient newsreader.

In Xnews, you can go to the Google Search page by simply doing Ctrl D.
So why can't OE do it?

Because Microsoft haven't decided they need to include a feature like that.
If you want to know *why* Microsoft haven't decided to do that, you would
have to ask Microsoft. Email the feature suggestion to them at
(e-mail address removed), but don't hold your breath waiting for a reply!

And if Google goes out of business, just change it.
And why isn't Google software?

Well, in a way it is, but the software resides along with the data on
Google's own servers.

--
Regards
Jonathan West - Word MVP
MultiLinker - Automated generation of hyperlinks in Word
Conversion to PDF & HTML
http://www.multilinker.com

 

[Klaus Linke]

I guess MS has backups of all posts on news.microsoft.com ...

So I suggested they might include a search of these archives by default if
you do a search of all of Microsoft at
http://search.microsoft.com/search/search.aspx?View=en-us&st=a

If you, too, think that'd be a good idea, you could write mswish about it,
http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp
or participate in the latest survey at
http://web.survey-poll.com/uniqs/018.0020C58.asp

Regards,
Klaus

 

[Klaus Linke]

Oops, the link to the survey on the MS search engine was probably
specifically for my feedback.

But if you click on
http://search.microsoft.com/search/search.aspx?View=en-us&st=a
and do a search or two, chances are that you'll be asked to participate in
the survey.

Klaus

 

[Mark Tangard]

And if Google goes out of business, just change it.

Easier said than done if the shortcut is not customizable.
And if it *is* customizable, there's no point in insisting
it should be pre-set to Google, because you could point it
there yourself and adjust it as needed. There are even
keyboards now with customizable keys that you can set to
open your browser and go to a specific webpage. Maybe you
should go get one.

Is the focus of your complaint the design of OE? If so,
this is wrong place. Microsoft product developers do not
listen to these groups. (Some say they don't listen to
anyone at all.) MVPs are not here to make excuses for
Microsoft products, nor to justify the way things are.

And why isn't Google software?

Ya may as well ask, why isn't the sky green.

Google is a website. The website is connected to an
archive. None of those things are software. Google's
search facility is software of a sort, but not in the
same category as the things Microsoft sells.

I get the sense you are annoyed that the Internet and
Microsoft don't function as a unified whole. Get used
to it: they never, ever will. And that's a good thing,
because no private entity should wield heavy control
over the huge, free "public conversation" that is the
Internet. Microsoft and the Internet are fundamentally
different things; you almost can't use the word "thing"
in the same way to address each. This isn't just apples
and oranges; it's more like... apples and hairballs. Or
apples and paleontology. Get it?

--
Mark Tangard <[email protected]>, Microsoft Word MVP
Please reply only to the newsgroup, not by private email.
Note well: MVPs do not work for Microsoft.
"Life is nothing if you're not obsessed." --John Waters

 

[George Seese]

Thanks to all,
I'm not annoyed, just wanting to learn what's available.
And what may help me and others to be more productive.
I imagine others in these forums use the archive search a lot, as I do.
Ya never know who may get an idea to improve a product or know better ways
of usage. What seems impossible for one may be very easy for another.
I appreciate all the info provided, and hope it has helped others as well.

George

 

[Jay Freedman]

Maybe if more people knew about the archives and searched them when they had
a problem, we wouldn't be answering so many FAQs over and over. ;-) And it
would be easier to find the interesting threads, like this one. Thanks for
asking!