Borders Around Groups

[gawarner]

Version: 2008 Operating System: Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard) Processor: Intel I've been grouping images and captions in a book, but now I can't seem to figure out how to do a border that will surround the group -- the same border surrounding both the image and the caption. When I select the group, then select a line in the formatting palette, borders appear separately around the image and the caption, but I want it to surround the group I've created. Thanks for any help.

 

[Rob Schneider]

Word can only put borders around "paragraphs". It has no concept of
what you call a "group".

Make the caption part of the same paragraph that holds the caption. Do
this by replacing the new paragraph mark at the end of the image with a
new line (shift-enter) and format that paragraph with Menu:
Format/Borders and Shading ...

A better way: I would assign a style, say "Figure" to that paragraphYhen
set the style for that paragraph to have border around it. Assign that
style wherever you have an image/caption that you want formatted that way.


--rms

www.rmschneider.com

 

[gawarner]

Thanks. Is it possible, then, to put a frame of some kind around a group of an image and a caption? I'm looking at a manual on Office 2008, and it appears that's what it uses, in some way, although ironically, I can't find anything in the manual about it, nor anywhere else. It doesn't appear these frames (for lack of a better term) are around paragraphs, but instead encompass image/caption combinations.

 

[CyberTaz]

There are 3 commonly used options, one of which is to put the image & the
caption in a Text Box. This works OK as long ass by 'caption' you don't mean
one that you intend to include in a Word-generated Table of Figures... Text
Boxes & their content are not a part of the text flow so the generator will
not pick up their content.

My preference is to put them in a one-cell table or in a Text Box converted
to a Frame.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Rob Schneider]

Bob mentions using a text box or one cell table. The latter I guess
works where you need more sophisticated control of the borders since you
can apply formatting to the paragraph, cell, and table.

However, given how you described what you want to do I don't think there
is the need for that extra-but-possible complexity. Just put the image
and caption in the same paragraph and put a border around that
paragraph. As mentioned, best to use a style-based approach.


--rms

www.rmschneider.com

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Rob;

In order to do what you suggest there are at least a few considerations:

1- The image *must* be In Line, text wrap cannot be used,
2- Assuming that a true caption is being used it is inserted into a separate
paragraph above/below the image,
3- Even though the caption para & the image para can be forced to become one
that would cause the caption to be beside the image, which usually imposes
an awkward, unbalanced appearance. It would also require that the image be
contained in a paragraph formatted with the Caption style,
4- If the image Is large and/or the caption is lengthy combining them in a
single paragraph would be virtually impossible to manage the flow of the
caption relative to the image,
5- Borders using the 2 paragraphs necessitates a border that spans left to
right margin, regardless of how small the image or how short the caption.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Patty Winter]

However, given how you described what you want to do I don't think there
is the need for that extra-but-possible complexity. Just put the image
and caption in the same paragraph and put a border around that
paragraph.

And in case "gawarner" doesn't know this, he/she can put the image
and caption in the same paragraph by doing a soft return (Shift-
Return) after the image, then typing the caption.

Centering the paragraph will then nicely center the caption under
the image. Then apply a border and it will surround the image and
the caption.


Patty

 

[Barry_Wainwright_[MVP]]

3- Even though the caption para & the image para can be forced to become one
that would cause the caption to be beside the image, which usually imposes
an awkward, unbalanced appearance.

not necessarily - you can use a line-break to put the caption under the image.


--
Barry Wainwright
Microsoft MVP
(see http://mvp.support.microsoft.com for more information)
Like most MVPs, I am responding to your query through the public
newsgroup channel (NNTP). Microsoft is planning to close the public
newsgroups which would effectively disable this channel and may affect
the number of answers that are given. Please post any concerns you have
about these plans in this newsgroup so we can forward them on to
Microsoft.

 

[Rob Schneider]

Humm.

1. Yes, agree. Forgot this since i *never* not use "in-line". Out of
line images are too complicated for my taste. If this the case, then my
idea does not work.
2. I don't know what a "true" caption is since I suggested the OP use a
what I could call a "regular" caption. I use use by Menu:Insert/Caption
(via a toolbar button). Paste in Image, hit cmd-enter for new line, and
insert a regular caption, apply "figure" style which has a border on the
paragraph. Works. I did not try a "true" caption as I don't know what
you mean.
3. Disagree and it's a matter of opinion. Not discussed with OP, but
since my image and caption are both left justified it looks pretty good.
Ok at right and center justified also.
4. Suppose that could happen but my captions are never long and images
also are never larger than would fit on the paper.
5. Border is around the single paragraph, and easy to change the space
above/below, indent/outdent of the contents of that paragraph. border
is independent of the paper's margin.

I think you are just being disagreeable. . My method does work,
especially for someone who needs help with doing this and apparently
does not know Word. It's simple.

But your method is great. There are now lots of things for the OP and
others to think when deciding to but borders around both images and
captions.

Final thought: I would recommend solving the problem by keeping the
document free of unnecessary borders like this. It's just eye candy and
distracting to the reader's attention to the images and text. Just
because we can use borders on figures, margins, and wherever doesn't
mean we should. Just my two bits.

(On thinking of this, one thing that does not work with my approach is
to include a table of captions in the front of the document. Without
testing this Word won't pick up on the lack of text style as "captions"
and if including the image in the styled paragraph that also would not
work. So that is far as I can tell the only downside to the simpler
approach. Since I would never have put borders around images and
captions like this, I would not have had to waste time messing with this
Word problem which allows me to instead focus on the writing problem.)

 

[CyberTaz]

And in case "gawarner" doesn't know this, he/she can put the image
and caption in the same paragraph by doing a soft return (Shift-
Return) after the image, then typing the caption.

Centering the paragraph will then nicely center the caption under
the image. Then apply a border and it will surround the image and
the caption.


Patty

Hi Patty & Barry;

I never wrote that you can't do either of these methods - But you still wind
up with a border that spans the page from left margin to right. Simply
clicking in the paragraph negates the 'Apply to: Text' option & if you
select the text in order to use that option you still wind up with a border
separately applied to the image and to the label that you typed or Caption
that you inserted.

Please understand that I never said that any suggestions offered were
'right' or 'wrong'... Just pointing out considerations, consequences &
effects.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Rob;

Humm.

1. Yes, agree. Forgot this since i *never* not use "in-line". Out of
line images are too complicated for my taste. If this the case, then my
idea does not work.
2. I don't know what a "true" caption is since I suggested the OP use a
what I could call a "regular" caption. I use use by Menu:Insert/Caption
(via a toolbar button). Paste in Image, hit cmd-enter for new line, and
insert a regular caption, apply "figure" style which has a border on the
paragraph. Works. I did not try a "true" caption as I don't know what
you mean.

True/regular, same-same as opposed to typing a label & calling it a
'caption' . But what does Command+enter do? In Word that combination is
unassigned... What have you assigned it to?

3. Disagree and it's a matter of opinion. Not discussed with OP, but
since my image and caption are both left justified it looks pretty good.
Ok at right and center justified also.
4. Suppose that could happen but my captions are never long and images
also are never larger than would fit on the paper.
5. Border is around the single paragraph, and easy to change the space
above/below, indent/outdent of the contents of that paragraph. border
is independent of the paper's margin.

I think you are just being disagreeable. . My method does work,
especially for someone who needs help with doing this and apparently
does not know Word. It's simple.

Not being disagreeable nor am I saying other options don't "work". My
original reply to the OP was predicated on the indication that s/he was
already dealing with wrapped images & wanted to keep them that way...
Otherwise the issue of "grouping" image & caption wouldn't have arisen.

But your method is great. There are now lots of things for the OP and
others to think when deciding to but borders around both images and
captions.

I don't know about "great", just other options & considerations.

Final thought: I would recommend solving the problem by keeping the
document free of unnecessary borders like this. It's just eye candy and
distracting to the reader's attention to the images and text. Just
because we can use borders on figures, margins, and wherever doesn't
mean we should. Just my two bits.

Actually, I agree... If anything I'd most commonly apply a Line to the image
but leave the caption un-bordered.

(On thinking of this, one thing that does not work with my approach is
to include a table of captions in the front of the document. Without
testing this Word won't pick up on the lack of text style as "captions"
and if including the image in the styled paragraph that also would not
work. So that is far as I can tell the only downside to the simpler
approach. Since I would never have put borders around images and
captions like this, I would not have had to waste time messing with this
Word problem which allows me to instead focus on the writing problem.)

Yeah, you can make it work, especially if you don't involve borders. When
you replace the ¶ with a line break it does remove the Caption style from
the caption text. All you need do, though, is reapply the style (or whatever
alternative style you've created).

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Rob Schneider]

Old age moment: new line is "shift" "enter".


--rms

www.rmschneider.com

 

[Patty Winter]

[extraneous quotage deleted]

I never wrote that you can't do either of these methods - But you still wind
up with a border that spans the page from left margin to right.

Sure, but all you have to do then is drag the margins where you want
them for that one paragraph only.

Rob brought up a good point, though, which is that one should make sure
that a border is actually necessary before doing this. Borders can just
clutter up the document.


Patty

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Patty;

[extraneous quotage deleted]

I never wrote that you can't do either of these methods - But you still wind
up with a border that spans the page from left margin to right.

Sure, but all you have to do then is drag the margins where you want
them for that one paragraph only.

Just for the record I'm sure you mean 'Indentation', not "margins"... Margin
settings can't be changed for a single para unless that para comprises a
Section Even so, the method deviates from what the OP asked for based on
wanting to use text wrap & still keep the the caption & image together.

Rob brought up a good point, though, which is that one should make sure
that a border is actually necessary before doing this. Borders can just
clutter up the document.

On this there's no doubt we all agree

Patty

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Patty Winter]

[extraneous quotage deleted]

Just for the record I'm sure you mean 'Indentation', not "margins"... Margin
settings can't be changed for a single para unless that para comprises a
Section Even so, the method deviates from what the OP asked for based on
wanting to use text wrap & still keep the the caption & image together.

I don't follow you...if you use a soft return before the caption, then
you type a caption that takes up more than one line (however long you've
set that line to be for the image and the caption), the caption text will
wrap just fine.

Or are you referring to wrapping *other* text around the image, not
wrapping the text of the caption? If there's text wrapping around the
image, that's one more reason not to put a border around the image.
Having text there already makes that part of the page "busy."


Patty

 

[CyberTaz]

<snip>

Or are you referring to wrapping *other* text around the image, not
wrapping the text of the caption?

<snip>

Bingo! Text Wrap as a formatting attribute of a floating object, not 'line
wrap' The OP is dealing with floating images which result in captions
generated in text boxes & is trying to 'tie' them together with a singular
border around the two.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac