breaking passwords on discs containing Word docs

[Water and Trees]

In 1994 I prepared documents saving them to 3 1/2" discs. Recently found the
discs (there's a whole box) and would like to access them. No slot on my
current computer for them, but have a friend whose computer does still allow
discs. My problem is wanting to by-pass the passwords I set for myself back
in 1994.

These are basic Word documents and there may be a few WordPerfect documents
on these discs as well. I just want to get by the passwords and get to the
documents.

Any suggestions are appreciated!
Thanks,

 

[Scott M.]

http://www.google.com/search?q=word...-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

 

[Graham Mayor]

There are two issues here - accessing the files and accessing the protected
documents. The first can be overcome by copying the discs to flash memory
and then you can copy them to the hard drive to access them (DON'T access
then from the flash memory).

If you don't know the passwords to open the documents, the chances of
opening them are slim to non-existent. The documents are encrypted and you
need the password to break the encryption. - see
http://www.gmayor.com/Remove_Password.htm

--
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Graham Mayor - Word MVP


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[Scott M.]

I hardly think that Word documents saved in 1994 had XML metadata stored
along with them. And so, the information on your page would not be useful.

Secondly, why do the disk files need to be copied to flash memory before
being put on to a hard drive? And for that matter, why can't the files be
opened from a flash drive?

Thirdly, there are MANY tools out there that use different techniques to
open a Word document that is password protected, here is just one example of
a very good tool:
http://www.freedownloadmanager.org/downloads/Word_Password_14353_p/

I'm sorry Graham, but your information is just either wrong or not
applicable in this circumstance.

-Scott

 

[Peter T. Daniels]

I hardly think that Word documents saved in 1994 had XML metadata stored
along with them.  And so, the information on your page would not be useful.

Secondly, why do the disk files need to be copied to flash memory before
being put on to a hard drive?  And for that matter, why can't the filesbe
opened from a flash drive?

2a. Because, as OP noted, the computer doesn't have a diskette drive.

2b. Because Word needs lots of space for creating the temporary files
it uses, and flash drives may not have adequate free space, and
corruption or loss of the file is a frequent result.

 

[Beth Melton]

I think there may be some confusion on the type of password that was set on
the documents. The information on Graham's page is for recovering a
passwords used to protect Word documents for forms/read only/tracked changes
which are all collaborative tools and aren't intended to be used for
security. When a document has been protected for collaboration then it can
be opened in Word and they can be easily bypassed. If a password is required
to open the document then Graham's page isn't applicable.

~Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP

 

[Scott M.]

I hardly think that Word documents saved in 1994 had XML metadata stored
along with them. And so, the information on your page would not be useful.

Secondly, why do the disk files need to be copied to flash memory before
being put on to a hard drive? And for that matter, why can't the files be
opened from a flash drive?

2a. Because, as OP noted, the computer doesn't have a diskette drive.

2C: The OP indicated that a friend has a machine that will take the disks
and transfer them to a hard drive--No flash needed.

2b. Because Word needs lots of space for creating the temporary files
it uses, and flash drives may not have adequate free space, and
corruption or loss of the file is a frequent result.

2C: You'll have a tough time finding a flash drive sold today that is less
than 2GB -- more than enough space for Word docs that were stored on a 1.44
MB floppy. Corruption is only frequent if you pull the flash card from the
USB slot while data is still being read/written. With most modern flash
drives, you don't even have to go through the Windows XP "Saftely remove
hardware" procedure.

2C-A - Why are we talking about flash drives again?

-Scott

 

[Scott M.]

I was proceeding under the assumption that the docs have a password required
to open the file. Otherwise, the OP could open the file and simply save it
under a new name.

I found Graham's page not to be relevant because the OP is talking about
Word docs made in 1994, long before Word stored any meta information in XML
along with the document.

-Scott

 

[Beth Melton]

I believe Graham was referring to the first paragraph of his page which
reads:

"There are lots of people out there who purport to be able to crack
passwords, but Word's protection is pretty good and does not come with any
back doors, so while you can break the password eventually by trial and
error using software that will try all possible examples, a suitably strong
password will take a seriously long time to break. There is an example of
such software listed on the favourites (http://www.gmayor.com/favorite.htm)
page of this site."

The rest applies to documents protected for collaboration with a password
and saving them with a new name doesn't strip the password. I wasn't
disagreeing, I think they're they're likely protected with a file access
password too and other than the first paragraph it's probably not relevant
to this specific situation.

~Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP

 

[Peter T. Daniels]

2a. Because, as OP noted, the computer doesn't have a diskette drive.

2C:  The OP indicated that a friend has a machine that will take the disks
and transfer them to a hard drive--No flash needed.

And how does that get them from friend's computer to OP's computer?

2b. Because Word needs lots of space for creating the temporary files
it uses, and flash drives may not have adequate free space, and
corruption or loss of the file is a frequent result.

2C: You'll have a tough time finding a flash drive sold today that is less
than 2GB -- more than enough space for Word docs that were stored on a 1.44
MB floppy.  Corruption is only frequent if you pull the flash card fromthe
USB slot while data is still being read/written. With most modern flash
drives, you don't even have to go through the Windows XP "Saftely remove
hardware" procedure.

2C-A - Why are we talking about flash drives again?

"Again"?

Because many people read this newsgroup and, from the number of
complaints about corrupted files that were saved directly to or opened
directly from flash drives, it's a major problem that needs to be
pointed out probably several times a day.

 

[Graham Mayor]

There are lots of password crackers available - including the example I
referred to from my web site which does all that the one you referred to can
manage. Password crackers have one thing in common. The demos can easily
crack a password that comprises four characters. They do not work so
remarkably when you try to crack a password of 8 or more random characters -
and you only discover that after you have paid your money. A decent password
can be cracked eventually, but it will take a seriously long time of
continuous processing to do so. We have no idea what sort of password
strength the OP may have used.

As Beth has pointed out, I referred to my web page primarily for its first
paragraph that merely emphasises the point that passwords against opening a
document are not easy to get around - and refer to software that I have
tried and know works ... eventually ... should the OP need such an approach.

As others have reminded you - the OP does not have a floppy drive. He needs
a means of getting the data from floppy to his PC. The PC will almost
certainly have a USB port, which makes flash a simple means of data
transfer, provided he can get access to a floppy drive or can get someone
copy the floppy discs for him.

Despite your protestations elsewhere in this thread, opening documents from
removable media is a frequent source of data corruption, and there is more
than enough evidence to show that this is the case - we see it in this forum
every week. We have no idea how large the flash media the OP may have
available (I have one piece with 8mb capacity), nor any idea how many files
are involved. Accessing data directly from flash media *may* not result in a
problem, but equally it might, so as I don't know what we are dealing with
any more than you do, suggesting the safest course is the best approach. The
safest course is to copy the files to the hard drive and open them from
there.

--
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Graham Mayor - Word MVP


<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>

 

[Scott M.]

And how does that get them from friend's computer to OP's computer?

Email? Remember we're talking about less than 1.44 MB of data.

2b. Because Word needs lots of space for creating the temporary files
it uses, and flash drives may not have adequate free space, and
corruption or loss of the file is a frequent result.

2C: You'll have a tough time finding a flash drive sold today that is less
than 2GB -- more than enough space for Word docs that were stored on a
1.44
MB floppy. Corruption is only frequent if you pull the flash card from the
USB slot while data is still being read/written. With most modern flash
drives, you don't even have to go through the Windows XP "Saftely remove
hardware" procedure.

2C-A - Why are we talking about flash drives again?

"Again"?

"Again" as in "remind me" since this was not brought up in the OP at all.

Because many people read this newsgroup and, from the number of
complaints about corrupted files that were saved directly to or opened
directly from flash drives, it's a major problem that needs to be
pointed out probably several times a day.

There is no evidence that flash memory is any more volitile than HDD memory.
The fact that many people encounter corruption with flash drives is not an
indicator that there is a problem with flash drives per se. It is more
likely that the people reporting problems are not using them properly
(pulling the drive while it's still being read from/written to). In a NG,
you'll most likely hear from the folks that don't know how to do something
correctly. Rather than make a statement like "DON'T access then from the
flash memory", which has no basis for being a technicological problem,
Graham should have said something like "If you use a flash drive to transfer
the files, be careful to only pull the drive out after you've successfully
completed the save operation to the drive.". But, to somehow imply that
documents on flash drives shouldn't be opened directly is absurd.

-Scott

 

[Scott M.]

There are lots of password crackers available - including the example I
referred to from my web site which does all that the one you referred to
can manage. Password crackers have one thing in common. The demos can
easily crack a password that comprises four characters. They do not work
so remarkably when you try to crack a password of 8 or more random
characters - and you only discover that after you have paid your money. A
decent password can be cracked eventually, but it will take a seriously
long time of continuous processing to do so. We have no idea what sort of
password strength the OP may have used.

I don't really get what your point here is. There IS software available to
crack passwords or use brute force and they do work. Your post sounded like
you were telling the OP that a password protected file cannot ever be opened
without the password. Despite your assertions to the contrary, software
does exist (like the one I pointed out) that can unlock a file regardless of
the password length in a relatively short time. The bottom line is that if
you need to access a password protected file, you CAN do it.

As others have reminded you - the OP does not have a floppy drive. He
needs a means of getting the data from floppy to his PC. The PC will
almost certainly have a USB port, which makes flash a simple means of data
transfer, provided he can get access to a floppy drive or can get someone
copy the floppy discs for him.

It's hard to "remind" someone of something that was never brought up. The
OP said nothing about flash drives. He did however, mention that the
original data was on a 1.44 MB floppy drive. I am not aware of ANY flash
drive ever made commercially that wasn't at least 5 times bigger than that
and those aren't even sold anymore. Such a small amount of data could
simply be emailed from the friend's machine to the OP's machine. No one
brought up flash drives but you and that's why I questioned it.

Despite your protestations elsewhere in this thread, opening documents
from removable media is a frequent source of data corruption, and there is
more than enough evidence to show that this is the case - we see it in
this forum every week. We have no idea how large the flash media the OP
may have available (I have one piece with 8mb capacity), nor any idea how
many files are involved. Accessing data directly from flash media *may*
not result in a problem, but equally it might, so as I don't know what we
are dealing with any more than you do, suggesting the safest course is the
best approach. The safest course is to copy the files to the hard drive
and open them from there.

As I've mentioned in another response in this thread, there is no
technilogical reason whatsoever for any more corruption with flash memory
than HDD memory. I agree that you may hear many more people talking about
corruption with flash memory than HDD memory, but in a NG, you will always
hear about the problems people have. People don't post to tell you that
everything worked as it should.

Flash memory can get corrupted in exactly the same manner than HDD memory
would get corrupted. But, with flash memory the most likely reason would be
that the drive was pulled while still being written to or read from. Your
brief "Don't do it!" message does not *inform* the newsgroup as to why you
are saying what you are saying. It leaves someone who doesn't know better
to believe that there is an inherent flaw with flash memory, which there is
not. It would have been more appropriate for you to say something like "Be
sure that the drive is no longer being accessed (by either checking the
access light on the drive or using the Hardware removal wizard in the system
tray) before you pull it out.

I have been a looooong time contributor to the MS NG's and I been seeing an
increasing amount of replies from MVP's that innacurately blame a technology
when the technology is fine, but the use of that technology is flawed or
incompletely recommend a solution, without indicating why that solution
should be used.

My goal in "nitpicking" your posts is to help newbies understand that, in
reality, flash memory is just as stable as HDD memory, but because it's
portable, the danger *potentially* lies in pulling the drive while it's
being accessed. If you don't do that, you'll hardly ever encounter any
corruption of files on flash media.

-Scott

 

[Graham Mayor]

I really don't know why I am wasting my time responding to your attempts at
trolling, in a thread that was done and dusted from the first reply, and I
don't mean by your supercilious reply with a link to a search engine.

To sum up for anyone who can be bothered wading through your last diatribe.
You assert that passwords can easily be cracked if only you have the right
software. This is simply nonsense. However they can be cracked if you have
sufficient time - which was covered in my web page.

You also try and assert that it is somehow better to subsitute a means of
transferring data that *might* be safe with one that *is* safe - for no good
reason. 'Hardly ever' is fine until you lose the data, and if you spent as
much time in these newsgroups as the MVPs who service them, you would know
that hardly a week goes by when someone loses data by writing to or reading
from flash media. So what is the point of your post other than to raise
argument where none is required?

--
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Graham Mayor - Word MVP


<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>

 

[Scott M.]

So what is the point of your post other than to raise argument where none
is required?

Hmmm. So you consider pointing out inaccuracies in a post trolling? Ok.

Well, despite your "I'm right no matter what you say." attitude, you aren't
right.

1. You say that software won't help open a password protected file. You are
WRONG, period.
2. You say that somehow emailing a document is not a safe way to transport a
document to its destination? I won't even begin on that one.
3. You say that because "just last week" there was a post about someone
who's data got corrupted on a flash drive proves that flash memory is
somehow less reliable than HDD memory.

All of these assertions are WRONG and there is ample evidence to show it.
Your argument that I am somehow trolling and providing diatribe just
bolsters my point that you aren't really interested in providing any
technical information, you just want to provide 1/2 answers to questions
that were not asked.

You were right about one thing. The question was answered after the first
reply, which was mine. Your posts have added nothing to the conversation:

1. You brought flash memory into the fray, when no one had asked about it.
2. You posted a link to a web page that, not only wasn't applicable, but
provided no course of action to help solve the problem.
3. You have resorted to slinging insults to someone who is making a
perfectly valid point about the mis-insformation you've provided.


Lastly, as someone who HAS been contributing to the MS NG's for well over a
decade, I do know that most of what you can garner from user posts here is
anecdotal evidence of a problem. Of course you will find post after post
describing some problem using Word documents in a Word Newsgroup. That's
because that's where people go to get problems solved. Just because you
find a lot of people low or out of gas at a gas station doesn't mean that
fuel tanks leak! And that is exactly the way you have come to your
diagnosis of flash memory, based on anecdotal information.

There is NO technical documentation of flash memory being any more volitile
than HDD memory when used correctly. ANY file can/will become corrupted
when the storage medium is disengaged while it is in use. To advise to
simply stop trying to access data on the storage medium doesn't address the
REAL issue and newbies reading such a post will walk away with the incorrect
idea that you shouldn't try to access files from a flash drive, when they
should come away with an understand of how to correctly use flash memory.

But hey, if you goal isn't to educate and simply to spread
misinformaiton - - good job!

-Scott

 

[Peter T. Daniels]

Email? Remember we're talking about less than 1.44 MB of data.

No, we're talking about "a whole box" of diskettes. Now it might be a
10-diskette retail box, but I'm envisioning more something like a
shoebox.

"Again"?

"Again" as in "remind me" since this was not brought up in the OP at all.

Because when Graham answered OP's question, he recommended
transferring the files from the friend's computer to the OP's computer
by flash drive, and then you questioned why a flash drive would be
needed given that one of the computers involved in the process had a
diskette drive.

There is no evidence that flash memory is any more volitile than HDD memory.

No one has mentioned volatility of memory. What _seems_ to be the
problem is that Word needs to create lots and lots of temporary files
in the same folder as the original document, and if the flash drive
runs out of space, you're screwed.

The fact that many people encounter corruption with flash drives is not an
indicator that there is a problem with flash drives per se.  It is more
likely that the people reporting problems are not using them properly
(pulling the drive while it's still being read from/written to).  In a NG,
you'll most likely hear from the folks that don't know how to do something
correctly.  Rather than make a statement like "DON'T access then from the
flash memory", which has no basis for being a technicological problem,
Graham should have said something like "If you use a flash drive to transfer
the files, be careful to only pull the drive out after you've successfully
completed the save operation to the drive.". But, to somehow imply that
documents on flash drives shouldn't be opened directly is absurd.

You clearly haven't been reading this newsgroup very long, and if
you're in the habit of saving or reading documents directly from Word
to/from flash drives, instead of always accessing them from a hard
drive, and you've had no ill experiences, then you've been very lucky.

 

[Peter T. Daniels]

It's hard to "remind" someone of something that was never brought up.  The

It was "brought up" in OP's message. "No slot on my current computer
for them, but have a friend whose computer does still allow discs."

 

[Scott M.]

Email? Remember we're talking about less than 1.44 MB of data.

No, we're talking about "a whole box" of diskettes. Now it might be a
10-diskette retail box, but I'm envisioning more something like a
shoebox.

And why wouldn't email be a way to transfer that?

"Again"?

"Again" as in "remind me" since this was not brought up in the OP at all.

Because when Graham answered OP's question, he recommended
transferring the files from the friend's computer to the OP's computer
by flash drive, and then you questioned why a flash drive would be
needed given that one of the computers involved in the process had a
diskette drive.

There is no evidence that flash memory is any more volitile than HDD
memory.

No one has mentioned volatility of memory. What _seems_ to be the
problem is that Word needs to create lots and lots of temporary files
in the same folder as the original document, and if the flash drive
runs out of space, you're screwed.

Word creates one (1) temporary file per document that is open. If one
document is open (and why would you need more than one open at a time to
transfer them?), then the file created is no larger than the original
document in the first place. If you have a flash drive that can't support
one additional file placed on it, then you probably shouldn't be using that
flash drive in the first place. Also, given then my local Best Buy doesn't
even sell a flash drive less than 4 GB anymore, you'd easily be able to
store 2000 floppy disks worth of information on it.

The fact that many people encounter corruption with flash drives is not an
indicator that there is a problem with flash drives per se. It is more
likely that the people reporting problems are not using them properly
(pulling the drive while it's still being read from/written to). In a NG,
you'll most likely hear from the folks that don't know how to do something
correctly. Rather than make a statement like "DON'T access then from the
flash memory", which has no basis for being a technicological problem,
Graham should have said something like "If you use a flash drive to
transfer
the files, be careful to only pull the drive out after you've successfully
completed the save operation to the drive.". But, to somehow imply that
documents on flash drives shouldn't be opened directly is absurd.

You clearly haven't been reading this newsgroup very long,

Why? Because I disagree with an MVP's suggestion? Again, I have no doubt
that many people here have encountered file corruption with flash drives.
But that, in and of itself, does not mean that the flash drive itself is the
problem. Newsgroups are where people (usually inexperienced or uninformed)
go to get help.

and if you're in the habit of saving or reading documents directly from Word
to/from flash drives, instead of always accessing them from a hard
drive, and you've had no ill experiences, then you've been very lucky.

No, I've been educated and informed enough about the technology to know how
to use it correctly. You cannot provide ANY technical evidence that using a
flash drive correctly is any more prone to file corruption than HDD media.

-Scott

 

[Scott M.]

And where is "flash drive" mentioned? It's not. Data can be transferred
from one machine to the other in several ways (direct file transfer using a
cable, burn to CD/DVD, email) that do not require flash drives at all.
Graham brought it into the discussion along with a bogus warning that was
not fully explained.

-Scott

It's hard to "remind" someone of something that was never brought up. The

It was "brought up" in OP's message. "No slot on my current computer
for them, but have a friend whose computer does still allow discs."

 

[Beth Melton]

There is no evidence that flash memory is any more volitile than HDD
memory. The fact that many people encounter corruption with flash drives
is not an indicator that there is a problem with flash drives per se. It
is more likely that the people reporting problems are not using them
properly (pulling the drive while it's still being read from/written to).
In a NG, you'll most likely hear from the folks that don't know how to do
something correctly. Rather than make a statement like "DON'T access then
from the flash memory", which has no basis for being a technicological
problem, Graham should have said something like "If you use a flash drive
to transfer the files, be careful to only pull the drive out after you've
successfully completed the save operation to the drive.". But, to somehow
imply that documents on flash drives shouldn't be opened directly is
absurd.

I used to feel this way as well but that was before I lost an important
document after editing it directly on a flash drive. I know how to safely
remove a flash drive and I also exited Word prior to ejecting it. I even had
the Word option for "Copy remotely stored files onto your computer, and
update the remote file when saving" enabled. My personal experience is
enough evidence for me to now advise others to copy files to their local
drive and after exiting Word to copy them back to their flash drive. Even
though it may sound absurd I don't want to be the one to advocate working
directly off a flash drive and have someone lose an important document
because of my advice. FWIW, the only reason I was working on documents
directly off a flash drive was to prove this advice wrong. LOL

Also note if someone removes their flash drive after saving you risk
corruption due to how Word manages temp files. When you save a file that
doesn't mean all of the content in the Word document is finalized. Some
finalization occurs when you close the file and Word may also perform some
clean-up activities when you exit the application. This includes clean-up on
the flash drive since Word saves some temp files in the same location as the
saved document and depending on what was done while the document was open,
such copying images and multiple sections in the document, temp files and
links to the document are maintained. For more on how Word uses temp files
take a look at this article:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/211632

~Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP