Bullet weirdness

[Posterizer]

Gang,
I had long experienced erratic behavior with Word 2004's bullet feature.
Sometimes I'd create a document on my work computer, and when I'd take
it home and open it on that computer (same version of the OS, same
version of Office), the symbols I had used for bullets would change
(usually to a capital sigma). I had the same thing happen when
exchanging docs with colleagues who were using Word on Windows (whatever
the version was prior to 2007).

So, fast forward to the present, and now I'm using Office/Word 2008,
hoping this glitch would be fixed, but no luck... I created a doc at
home, using the .docx format, which contains a few bullet points. I
used solid circles for the first level and open circles for the second
level. When I opened the same document on my work computer later, I see
that the closed circle bullets are now displayed as infinity symbols and
at least one symbol (I can't remember what it was) is now an empty
rectangle.

I clicked on the bullet Style menu on the formatting palette on my work
computer, and it doesn't even *have* a solid circle in the list. It
does, however, have *two* infinity symbols shown on separate lines.

What the heck?

Is this something to do with the fonts installed on the different
comptuers? They *should* be the same, at least between my two Macs
(probably not between the Macs and windows PCs). But I suppose there's
a possibility that the fonts may differ in some slight way between my
work and home computer.

What can I do to fix this? I can't even replace the infinity symbols
with closed circles here at work because it doesn't even offer the
closed circle as an option.

OS 10.4.11
Word 12.1.1

thanks!
Dennis

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Dennis:

There's your problem: the character you chose for the bullet is not
available on the work machine, so it has substituted something else.

The bullets and numbering are the same thing, internally. They are
"generated" characters that do not exist in the document.

However, the font for the bullets can be (usually is...) different from the
font in use for the paragraph and the font in use for the text in the
paragraph.

The behaviour is not "actually" erratic, but it is very complex. It pays to
study Shauna Kelly's web pages here: www.shaunakelly.com

Anyway: Go to Format>Style>Modify and see what is going on. In that
dialog, the FIRST drop-down list on the left (which has no label) will give
the name of the font that the bullet has been chosen from.

Choose a font that you know exists on both computers. Then choose a bullet
to suit, from that font.

That will fix it for you. (Or at least: If it doesn't, come back and I will
give you War and Peace on the subject... I am trying to save you a lot of
time here by giving you only the basics...)

Cheers

Gang,
I had long experienced erratic behavior with Word 2004's bullet feature.
Sometimes I'd create a document on my work computer, and when I'd take
it home and open it on that computer (same version of the OS, same
version of Office), the symbols I had used for bullets would change
(usually to a capital sigma). I had the same thing happen when
exchanging docs with colleagues who were using Word on Windows (whatever
the version was prior to 2007).

So, fast forward to the present, and now I'm using Office/Word 2008,
hoping this glitch would be fixed, but no luck... I created a doc at
home, using the .docx format, which contains a few bullet points. I
used solid circles for the first level and open circles for the second
level. When I opened the same document on my work computer later, I see
that the closed circle bullets are now displayed as infinity symbols and
at least one symbol (I can't remember what it was) is now an empty
rectangle.

I clicked on the bullet Style menu on the formatting palette on my work
computer, and it doesn't even *have* a solid circle in the list. It
does, however, have *two* infinity symbols shown on separate lines.

What the heck?

Is this something to do with the fonts installed on the different
comptuers? They *should* be the same, at least between my two Macs
(probably not between the Macs and windows PCs). But I suppose there's
a possibility that the fonts may differ in some slight way between my
work and home computer.

What can I do to fix this? I can't even replace the infinity symbols
with closed circles here at work because it doesn't even offer the
closed circle as an option.

OS 10.4.11
Word 12.1.1

thanks!
Dennis

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

 

[Posterizer]

Hi Dennis:

There's your problem: the character you chose for the bullet is not
available on the work machine, so it has substituted something else.

The bullets and numbering are the same thing, internally. They are
"generated" characters that do not exist in the document.

However, the font for the bullets can be (usually is...) different from the
font in use for the paragraph and the font in use for the text in the
paragraph.

The behaviour is not "actually" erratic, but it is very complex. It pays to
study Shauna Kelly's web pages here: www.shaunakelly.com

Anyway: Go to Format>Style>Modify and see what is going on. In that
dialog, the FIRST drop-down list on the left (which has no label) will give
the name of the font that the bullet has been chosen from.

Choose a font that you know exists on both computers. Then choose a bullet
to suit, from that font.

That will fix it for you. (Or at least: If it doesn't, come back and I will
give you War and Peace on the subject... I am trying to save you a lot of
time here by giving you only the basics...)

Cheers

Thanks, John. You're always very helpful

I'll take a look at the settings and fonts, and at the website you
provided the link to.

Without having read (or wanting to read) the War & Peace of this stuff,
I just find it strange that the fonts would differ. Both machines are
running the same OS and same version of Office (and I'm pretty sure that
Office installs fonts with the application, and has a default font for
these sorts of things). I have never installed any fonts alone onto
either computer, but I know that some of the applications I've installed
have installed fonts of their own, so that's the only source of variance
I can think of (with respect to fonts).

BTW, do you have a recommendation for a font to use for bullets that
will be the most compatible with Windows Office users?

thanks!
Dennis

 

[Posterizer]

Anyway: Go to Format>Style>Modify and see what is going on. In that
dialog, the FIRST drop-down list on the left (which has no label) will give
the name of the font that the bullet has been chosen from.

Just looking at the document on my work computer, I see that the font is
Cambria (Body) 12. (My text font in the document is Arial, BTW).

BTW, what is the difference between this Forma>Style>Modify menu and the
Format>Bullets and Numbering>Customize section? If I go into the
latter, there are various symbols shown, with buttons for Font, Bullet
and Picture below them. If I select one symbol, and click the Font
button, I see that the different symbols displayed there are using
different Fonts (eg, infinity is using the Symbol font, while the open
circle is using Courier New).

Is this a means of changing a different default related to bullets than
your suggested Format>Style>Modify section?

I also have no idea what the Bullet button does on that other dialog.
It displays various symbols and has yet another font menu. It just
seems there are too many ways of setting the font with respect to
bullets. I have a feeling that this is some of what you were hinting at
with the War & Peace version...

Dennis

 

[John McGhie]

Ummmmm.... Let me give you another Chapter

There are two paths into the Bullets and Numbering mechanism, List
Templates, and List Styles.

A List style behaves like any other style and can be attached to a paragraph
style and thus associated with it.

A list template is the basic mechanism: it behaves more like a "tag" and can
not (easily) be attached to a style. It is designed for use when direct
formatting.

Whenever you go into Format>Bullets and Numbering... You are dealing with
Direct Formatting. It's a quick-and-dirty mechanism for short documents you
intend to create, print, then not work on again.

The Format>Style... Entry point is for use when working on professional
documents that you want to keep and work on for years. It enables you to
set your bullets and numbering up to work with the Styles in your document,
and to associate your bullets and numbering with styles.

The second way is the "Professional" toolset for the 'tradesmen'. Slightly
more complex to understand, but far more flexible and stable. Actually,
that would be better expressed as "To use it successfully, you need to
understand it, as opposed to direct formatting, which is designed to be used
by people who don't understand it.

Ultimately, both mechanisms point back to the same objects internally: a
property table, in which bullets and numbering look exactly the same
mechanism as other kinds of style.

If you want your documents to last, avoid Format>Bullets and Numbering...

What did you think of Shauna's site?

Cheers

Just looking at the document on my work computer, I see that the font is
Cambria (Body) 12. (My text font in the document is Arial, BTW).

BTW, what is the difference between this Forma>Style>Modify menu and the
Format>Bullets and Numbering>Customize section? If I go into the
latter, there are various symbols shown, with buttons for Font, Bullet
and Picture below them. If I select one symbol, and click the Font
button, I see that the different symbols displayed there are using
different Fonts (eg, infinity is using the Symbol font, while the open
circle is using Courier New).

Is this a means of changing a different default related to bullets than
your suggested Format>Style>Modify section?

I also have no idea what the Bullet button does on that other dialog.
It displays various symbols and has yet another font menu. It just
seems there are too many ways of setting the font with respect to
bullets. I have a feeling that this is some of what you were hinting at
with the War & Peace version...

Dennis

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

 

[Posterizer]

What did you think of Shauna's site?

Thanks, John.
Shauna's site looked very useful (I found myself nosing around other
parts after looking into the bullets). The sections on bullets looked
clearly written, and not too complicated, but they were lengthy so I
didn't read them in detail yet. I'm reluctant to mess with styles as
I've never had much luck in my dabbling with them, but it seems I may
have to give in and learn a bit more.

I'm still stumped as to why my simple document is displaying different
only the two computers. I opened the doc on both computers, and
checked the font settings under Format>Style>Modify and both listed
Cambria. I think opened Font Book and both computers have Cambria
installed on them.

Yet only the computer that I originally created the document on will
display the bullets correctly.

_dennis

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Dennis -

Thanks, John.
Shauna's site looked very useful (I found myself nosing around other
parts after looking into the bullets). The sections on bullets looked
clearly written, and not too complicated, but they were lengthy so I
didn't read them in detail yet. I'm reluctant to mess with styles as
I've never had much luck in my dabbling with them, but it seems I may
have to give in and learn a bit more.

I'm still stumped as to why my simple document is displaying different
only the two computers. I opened the doc on both computers, and
checked the font settings under Format>Style>Modify and both listed
Cambria. I think opened Font Book and both computers have Cambria
installed on them.

Yet only the computer that I originally created the document on will
display the bullets correctly.

_dennis

Don't confuse the Style applied to the *text* in the list paragraph with the
Bullet character used. It doesn't have to be - and usually isn't - the same
font as the text you type. Instead, it may be Symbol, Wingdings, any other
glyph from any available font on the creator's system, or even a graphic of
some sort. If that glyph isn't available on the other system displaying the
doc a substitution has to be made or a non-character (such as a hollow box)
will be displayed instead.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Dennis:

Yep. The problem is still that the bullet is using a font that is on one
machine but not the other.

You need to dig into the works to find out which one that is, and either
move the font to the other machine, or change the bullet characters to a
different font

Cheers

Thanks, John.
Shauna's site looked very useful (I found myself nosing around other
parts after looking into the bullets). The sections on bullets looked
clearly written, and not too complicated, but they were lengthy so I
didn't read them in detail yet. I'm reluctant to mess with styles as
I've never had much luck in my dabbling with them, but it seems I may
have to give in and learn a bit more.

I'm still stumped as to why my simple document is displaying different
only the two computers. I opened the doc on both computers, and
checked the font settings under Format>Style>Modify and both listed
Cambria. I think opened Font Book and both computers have Cambria
installed on them.

Yet only the computer that I originally created the document on will
display the bullets correctly.

_dennis

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

 

[Posterizer]

Hi Dennis:

Yep. The problem is still that the bullet is using a font that is on one
machine but not the other.

You need to dig into the works to find out which one that is, and either
move the font to the other machine, or change the bullet characters to a
different font

Ok, I'm a little confused...please bear with me. The earlier suggestion
to use only the Format>Style>Modify section seems to apply (as CyberTaz
posted) only to the paragraph style and not the bullet attached to it.

Everything I've read so far said to avoid the Format>Bullets and
Numbering>Customize section, yet that seems to be the only one that has
font info specific to the bullets themselves.

I don't really understand how to use that dialog. First thing, I assume
it would display info about the bullet in the line you have the cursor
in, but it doesn't do so consistently.

Second, after opening the Customize section, the first of six bullets is
highlighted (what are the 6?), then you can press either the Font button
or the Bullet button. Pressing the Font button allows one to select a
font. Pressing the Bullet button allows one to select a symbol, but,
confusingly enough, it *also* has a font selection menu. So I'm at a
loss as to which, if any, to focus on.

At this point, I'll just take note of what they display when I have the
doc opened on the two different machines.

Wow, whoda thunk something as seemingly simple as bullet points would be
so complex?

Dennis

 

[John McGhie]

It's not the best-designed dialog in the world

Format>Style>Modify>Format>Numbering>Bullets>Customise will get you there.
This is known as "drilling to China"

There are two ways of applying bullets: Direct, or Style.

If you apply bullets using Format>Bullets and Numbering>... You are applying
"Direct" formatting. This means that every list is potentially different
from every other list in the document. When you get trouble, you have to
fix every list individually. You will get old before your time.

If you always apply bullets using the "List Bullet" style, all of the
bullets in the document will be exactly the same. The formatting is stored
in your Normal template, so every document you create will be correct. And
you only have to make the change ONCE to put the current and every future
document right.

Make your change in the current document, and check the "Add to template"
checkbox on the Modify panel. That saves your change back to the template.

I know, I know, it's not well-designed. But hang in there: when you get it
right it will stay right.

Behind the scenes, ALL formatting in Word is performed with styles. What we
call a "Style" is simply a set of formatting characteristics that Word has
assigned a name to, so we can find it and use it again.

Hope this helps

Ok, I'm a little confused...please bear with me. The earlier suggestion
to use only the Format>Style>Modify section seems to apply (as CyberTaz
posted) only to the paragraph style and not the bullet attached to it.

Everything I've read so far said to avoid the Format>Bullets and
Numbering>Customize section, yet that seems to be the only one that has
font info specific to the bullets themselves.

I don't really understand how to use that dialog. First thing, I assume
it would display info about the bullet in the line you have the cursor
in, but it doesn't do so consistently.

Second, after opening the Customize section, the first of six bullets is
highlighted (what are the 6?), then you can press either the Font button
or the Bullet button. Pressing the Font button allows one to select a
font. Pressing the Bullet button allows one to select a symbol, but,
confusingly enough, it *also* has a font selection menu. So I'm at a
loss as to which, if any, to focus on.

At this point, I'll just take note of what they display when I have the
doc opened on the two different machines.

Wow, whoda thunk something as seemingly simple as bullet points would be
so complex?

Dennis

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]