Can a Paragraph Style use a Character Style

[Michael_Tennes]

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Power PC

I have defined a character style for quoted text. Sometimes a quote entire paragraphs where I make the quote a separate paragraph that's indented. I would like to define a paragraph style for this and use my previously defined character style for the font, size, etc..

The reason is that if I change the character style then the paragraph style will use those changes, instead of always having to change each to match.

Another question. Is there a way to apply a style without loosing any bold, italic, or underlined text?

Any suggestions?

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

Interesting issue.

You could apply a QuoteBlock paragraph style to a paragraph, and then
select the text of the paragraph and apply a Quote character style to it
(or whatever names you use). That should work. Text can have 1 paragraph
style and 1 character style.

Word styles have a "based on" ability, so that you can change a base
style and have the changes automatically propagate to the other style,
BUT, you cannot base a paragraph style on a character style, or vice
versa, so that won't help you here.

Re #2--If you apply a paragraph style *without* bold, italic, etc, then
it should not override direct character formatting like bold, italic.
Applying a character style will override such formatting.

Play around with these things a bit, seeing how they adjust to your
workflow, before doing drastic changes.

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Michael -

See below... although I'm sure you'll get some other responses as well:

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Power PC

I have defined a character style for quoted text. Sometimes a quote entire
paragraphs where I make the quote a separate paragraph that's indented. I
would like to define a paragraph style for this and use my previously
defined character style for the font, size, etc..

The reason is that if I change the character style then the paragraph
style will use those changes, instead of always having to change each to
match.

Applying a character style within a paragraph style "can" be done but the
result is dicey at best - you actually wind up with a *hybrid* called a
Linked Style, which many consider the bane of word processing documents.
Instead - based on your description - when you define the Paragraph Style
don't include any character formatting but specify that it be Based On your
Character Style. If you change the Character style specs the Para style(s)
based on it will be reformatted accordingly. I believe that will give you
the desired result with less likelyhood of breaking your doc.

Another question. Is there a way to apply a style without loosing any
bold, italic, or underlined text?

AFAIK, as long as the style being applied doesn't include contradictions to
those attruibutes they will be retained... but I'm sure there may be some
variables that need be taken into consideration.

 

[CyberTaz]

ehhh - scratch that :-} As soon as I saw Daiya's reply I realized that I had
crossed wires with another program... she's absolutely right - Word does not
allow basing a para style on a char style. My bad.

However, you can define your base style as a para style (using None for its
"based on" property) which includes no para or other attribs aside from the
char formatting. Base the second para style on that base as previously
suggested & use the checkbox to automatically update.

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Michael:

I believe that you don't actually have to "do" anything My
understanding is that Word 2008 has implemented PC Word 2003's concept of
"Linked Styles". I can't test this at the moment because my copy of Office
2008 is "in the mail".

1) Create your BlockQuote style as a PARAGRAPH style, with the font, size
and INDENT you want.

2) Now: If you apply it to a selection that does NOT include a paragraph
mark, Word will create a Character style from it, as a dreaded Linked style.
The Character style will have the same name as the Paragraph style, but only
the character style attributes.

3) From then on, you apply the same style name to everything. If it's less
than a paragraph, you'll get only the Character style. If it's more, you
will get the Paragraph style containing the indent as well.

4) If you change the font, the two styles will behave as though there is
only one style: the font change will show up in both the Character and
Paragraph style.

To detect this condition, display the Formatting Palette. The name of the
style will be followed by ¶ if it's a Paragraph style; By a if it's a
Character style, and by ¶a if it's a Linked Style.

In Word 2004, they partially implemented this as a horrible kludge so if you
partially apply a paragraph style, Word applies only the Character
attributes, as direct formatting.

If you click into a paragraph so that you have just an insertion point, not
a highlight, then you apply a style, you will keep directly-applied bold,
italic, and underline formatting.

If you select an area and apply a style, you will keep bold, italic and
underline provided the style does not apply those attributes. If it does,
it will "toggle" the attributes: bold will become "normal".

Hope this helps

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Power PC

I have defined a character style for quoted text. Sometimes a quote entire
paragraphs where I make the quote a separate paragraph that's indented. I
would like to define a paragraph style for this and use my previously defined
character style for the font, size, etc..

The reason is that if I change the character style then the paragraph style
will use those changes, instead of always having to change each to match.

Another question. Is there a way to apply a style without loosing any bold,
italic, or underlined text?

Any suggestions?

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Michael_Tennes]

Applying a character style within a paragraph style "can" be done but the

result is dicey at best - you actually wind up with a *hybrid* called a
Linked Style, which many consider the bane of word processing documents.
Instead - based on your description - when you define the Paragraph Style
don't include any character formatting but specify that it be Based On your
Character Style. If you change the Character style specs the Para style(s)
based on it will be reformatted accordingly. I believe that will give you
the desired result with less likelyhood of breaking your doc.

I can't find any way to base a paragraph style on a character style. Also, I don't see any "*hybrid*" or "linked" style behaviour.

 

[Michael_Tennes]

2) Now: If you apply it to a selection that does NOT include a paragraph mark, Word will create a Character style from it, as a dreaded Linked style. The Character style will have the same name as the Paragraph style, but only the character style attributes.

I doesn't create a character style, it reformats the whole paragraph (not just the selected text) with the paragraph style.

To detect this condition, display the Formatting Palette. The name of the style will be followed by ¶ if it's a Paragraph style; By a if it's a Character style, and by ¶a if it's a Linked Style.

I have never seen a ¶a style, though I've tried to create one based on all the suggestions in this thread.

If you click into a paragraph so that you have just an insertion point, not a highlight, then you apply a style, you will keep directly-applied bold, italic, and underline formatting.

This is true if the paragraph style doesn't include any font attributes.

If you select an area and apply a style, you will keep bold, italic and underline provided the style does not apply those attributes. If it does, it will "toggle" the attributes: bold will become "normal".

Nope applying a character style clears the bold, italic and underline attributes, so I have to duplicate the paragraph, apply the character style (which just specifies font & size) and then manually reapply bold, italic and underline.

 

[Phillip Jones]

Hey John Hurry! go get the translator update for Office2004 even if it
is beta. and install right now, while you don't have Office2008
installed. because you won't be able to after it is seems the translator
install doesn't know the difference between Office 2004 and 2008 and
will mess up the translators in 2008 if you install it with 2008 on the
sme Drive or Partition.

Hi Michael:

I believe that you don't actually have to "do" anything My
understanding is that Word 2008 has implemented PC Word 2003's concept
of "Linked Styles". I can't test this at the moment because my copy of
Office 2008 is "in the mail".

1) Create your BlockQuote style as a PARAGRAPH style, with the font,
size and INDENT you want.

2) Now: If you apply it to a selection that does NOT include a
paragraph mark, Word will create a Character style from it, as a dreaded
Linked style. The Character style will have the same name as the
Paragraph style, but only the character style attributes.

3) From then on, you apply the same style name to everything. If it's
less than a paragraph, you'll get only the Character style. If it's
more, you will get the Paragraph style containing the indent as well.

4) If you change the font, the two styles will behave as though there
is only one style: the font change will show up in both the Character
and Paragraph style.

To detect this condition, display the Formatting Palette. The name of
the style will be followed by ¶ if it's a Paragraph style; By _a _if
it's a Character style, and by ¶_a_ if it's a Linked Style.

In Word 2004, they partially implemented this as a horrible kludge so if
you partially apply a paragraph style, Word applies only the Character
attributes, as direct formatting.

If you click into a paragraph so that you have just an insertion point,
not a highlight, then you apply a style, you will keep directly-applied
bold, italic, and underline formatting.

If you select an area and apply a style, you will keep bold, italic and
underline provided the style does not apply those attributes. If it
does, it will "toggle" the attributes: bold will become "normal".

Hope this helps




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John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

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[John McGhie]

Hi Michael:

OK, I can finally test this.

Linked styles ARE implemented. But the fact that they are linked is
HIDDEN!!

I am sorry to mislead you. When I last looked at this briefly, I saw it
could partially-apply Heading styles and thought "Ah hah!" they've
implemented Word 2003/7's Linked Styles.

Well, they have, but they've kept it a big secret!

1) If you create a style, say "Style 1", and apply a font and an indent.

2) Then pick a different style (say: Body Text) and define a different
font and indent

3) Then apply Style 1 to a paragraph

4) Then select three words within the Style 1 paragraph and apply Body Text

Only the three words will change, AND

If you click in the three words, the style will show as "Body Text". If you
click outside the three words, the style will show as "Style 1".

If you change the font colour of Body Text, the text in the paragraph that
has Style 1 will change.

5) If you select the paragraph mark and apply Body Text, the whole
paragraph will change and so will the indent.

6) If you just click into the paragraph so your selection is an insertion
point, and apply a different paragraph style, only the parts of the
paragraph that do not have Body Text applied will change.

So Body Text has been created as a Linked Style which is behaving as a
Character Style in that paragraph.

So: Linked Styles are there in Word 2008. They just didn't make it as far
as the user interface, so we can't see them. So we can't see what we're
doing (sigh...).

However, Linked Styles will do what you want without having to do anything
else, once you understand how they work. To an extent you will be flying
blind, because in Word 2008 you cannot see the Character component of a
linked style.

The key is to create your base style as a Paragraph style, with its indents
and spacing as well as all its font properties.

* If you then apply it to a selection that does not include a paragraph
mark, it will apply as a linked character style and you will get only the
character properties.

* If you apply it to the whole paragraph, or with only an insertion point
instead of a selection, it will apply as a Paragraph style and you will get
the indents as well.

If I think about it, this is probably a better implementation of the
mechanism than Word 2007's. In point of fact, the user never needs to know
whether a style has a linked style or not. The character properties of the
linked style can never be different from the character properties stored in
the paragraph style, so there is no point in differentiating.

The automation coder needs to know, because you need to know whether you
have a paragraph in context or just a string for some operations. But
presumably you can test the "LinkedStyle" property in AppleScript the same
as you could in VBA if VBA were there

So I think this is actually an improvement. No longer does the user see two
indicators against the one style name, and no longer to they see the horrid
"char char" appended to their style names...

Hope this helps

I doesn't create a character style, it reformats the whole paragraph (not just
the selected text) with the paragraph style.

I have never seen a ¶a style, though I've tried to create one based on all the
suggestions in this thread.

This is true if the paragraph style doesn't include any font attributes.
Nope applying a character style clears the bold, italic and underline
attributes, so I have to duplicate the paragraph, apply the character style
(which just specifies font & size) and then manually reapply bold, italic and
underline.

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Phillip:

A VERY interesting point

I have Word 2004 and Word 2008 installed here. If I want to get a .docx
open in Word 2004 currently, I can't; because the Office 2008 installation
has removed the Beta version of the converter that I had installed.

Which means that if I want to run a macro on an Office 2008 document, I
can't.

However: I am not going to force the converter back in (certainly not the
beta version...) because to do so would almost certainly break the Office
2008 installation. Since the "converter" is actually the Office 2008
'engine' in disguise.

So I shall concentrate their attention on ensuring that the XML converter is
available to install on dual-installation Macs when it comes out of Beta.

Cheers

Hey John Hurry! go get the translator update for Office2004 even if it
is beta. and install right now, while you don't have Office2008
installed. because you won't be able to after it is seems the translator
install doesn't know the difference between Office 2004 and 2008 and
will mess up the translators in 2008 if you install it with 2008 on the
sme Drive or Partition.

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

Hi Michael:

OK, I can finally test this.

Linked styles ARE implemented. But the fact that they are linked is
HIDDEN!!

But recall that people using them for headings had problems creating a
Table of Contents. Maybe.

 

[Phillip Jones]

Great! didn't want you to get in trouble! I'm looking out for ya buddy. ;-)

Hi Phillip:

A VERY interesting point

I have Word 2004 and Word 2008 installed here. If I want to get a .docx
open in Word 2004 currently, I can't; because the Office 2008 installation
has removed the Beta version of the converter that I had installed.

Which means that if I want to run a macro on an Office 2008 document, I
can't.

However: I am not going to force the converter back in (certainly not the
beta version...) because to do so would almost certainly break the Office
2008 installation. Since the "converter" is actually the Office 2008
'engine' in disguise.

So I shall concentrate their attention on ensuring that the XML converter is
available to install on dual-installation Macs when it comes out of Beta.

Cheers

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
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[John McGhie]

Yes, I AM recalling that, and I can't explain it.

The Style NAME is there, and that should keep the TOC Generator happy.

Of course, if the style is applied as a Linked Style (the Character portion
of a Paragraph style...) then the Outline Level will not be present.

I have a customer document on the workbench right now with a similarly ugly
issue: they have "Automatically update" springing up like measles (user
error, but they can't track down WHICH user...) and they want a macro to
turn it off.

Everything works swimmingly until you get to a Linked Style when "BOOM" the
Macro crashes because Linked Styles have an Automatically Update property
but it is read-only unless you are addressing the Paragraph component of the
Linked Style...

Any lurking Microsoft employees better wear a disguise for a day or two,
because if *I* find you....

Cheers

But recall that people using them for headings had problems creating a
Table of Contents. Maybe.

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[John McGhie]

Hi Phillip:

Well, Curt replied that this is a supported scenario, they have tested it,
and it should work

if you have Office 2008 installed as well, the released version of the
Office 2008 converter will install and be available in Office 2004.

He swore it's true...

Cheers

Great! didn't want you to get in trouble! I'm looking out for ya buddy. ;-)

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Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Phillip Jones]

just tried. He fibbed.

in word it will neither save to nor open Docx files.
If you have open Office Files its shows you being able to read XLSX
files but not save to them.

So he fibbed.

In the save as List for Word and excel it only shows format that would
open with 2004


In 2008 it has all the 2004 type, plus PDF which is not directly
converted It does not call up the apple print Menu its saved directly.

I have both on my Laptop.

At best its hit or miss. mostly miss.

Hi Phillip:

Well, Curt replied that this is a supported scenario, they have tested it,
and it should work

if you have Office 2008 installed as well, the released version of the
Office 2008 converter will install and be available in Office 2004.

He swore it's true...

Cheers

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
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<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Phillip:

How can you try this? Where did you get the Released version of the OOXML
Converter? Because I don't have it, and it's not on the website?

I think the converter you have is the beta version, same as me. In which
case, I am surprised it works at all with Office 2008 installed??

So Curt didn't fib. But I think you may not be reading very carefully

Cheers

just tried. He fibbed.

in word it will neither save to nor open Docx files.
If you have open Office Files its shows you being able to read XLSX
files but not save to them.

So he fibbed.

In the save as List for Word and excel it only shows format that would
open with 2004


In 2008 it has all the 2004 type, plus PDF which is not directly
converted It does not call up the apple print Menu its saved directly.

I have both on my Laptop.

At best its hit or miss. mostly miss.

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Phillip Jones]

I have both version of Office 2004 and 2008 on my Laptop.

I chose to leave office2004 on when I installed 2008.

You just said That your buddy said That when you install 2008 it makes
the system available to 2004 according to you buddy. he said it should
work. Really really work.

Well I am telling you I attempted to open an xlsx file from office 2004
was able to but not to resave as 2008. I also can not open 2008 docx
file in any format I tried all the converter shown available in 2004
they won't open it except htm and then its only gibberish.

So I didn't come out and say he was a Liar, but he fibbed which is
different meaning what he thought worked and swore to doesn't.

I have the Beta version of the converter but according to the
information on server say if you have Office2008 already installed you
can not installer the converters as it will destroy the converters in
2008 causing to have to completely reinstall 2008.

If there is a different meaning from what you said than what you said.
then my apologies.

Hi Phillip:

How can you try this? Where did you get the Released version of the OOXML
Converter? Because I don't have it, and it's not on the website?

I think the converter you have is the beta version, same as me. In which
case, I am surprised it works at all with Office 2008 installed??

So Curt didn't fib. But I think you may not be reading very carefully

Cheers

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Phillip:

I did not say "my buddy said...". I said "Microsoft Software Engineer Curt
Laird" said...

I did not say that 2008 makes the system available to 2004. I said that the
mechanism Curt is testing does. I do not know what Curt is testing, other
than that he is in charge of testing Word 2008. I do know that whatever he
is testing, I haven't got it, and neither have you.

I *can* guarantee you that the scenario doesn't work with the components
currently released: that's why I asked the question

Sorry Phillip, you have to read every word of the post before you go racing
off leaping to conclusions.

There will be a RELEASED version of the OOXML converter on the server just
as soon as they can get it through testing. I guess that's what Curt is
referring to: I assume that he is testing it prior to release, and hopefully
we will get it soon -- but after they get the bugs out of it

Cheers

I have both version of Office 2004 and 2008 on my Laptop.

I chose to leave office2004 on when I installed 2008.

You just said That your buddy said That when you install 2008 it makes
the system available to 2004 according to you buddy. he said it should
work. Really really work.

Well I am telling you I attempted to open an xlsx file from office 2004
was able to but not to resave as 2008. I also can not open 2008 docx
file in any format I tried all the converter shown available in 2004
they won't open it except htm and then its only gibberish.

So I didn't come out and say he was a Liar, but he fibbed which is
different meaning what he thought worked and swore to doesn't.

I have the Beta version of the converter but according to the
information on server say if you have Office2008 already installed you
can not installer the converters as it will destroy the converters in
2008 causing to have to completely reinstall 2008.

If there is a different meaning from what you said than what you said.
then my apologies.

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Phillip Jones]

Fine. But I read the whole thing through and the way you had worded
implied that if you already had 2004 installed 2008 it would over write
and take over all converters in 2004. My apologies for wrong implying. ;-)

Hi Phillip:

I did not say "my buddy said...". I said "Microsoft Software Engineer Curt
Laird" said...

I did not say that 2008 makes the system available to 2004. I said that the
mechanism Curt is testing does. I do not know what Curt is testing, other
than that he is in charge of testing Word 2008. I do know that whatever he
is testing, I haven't got it, and neither have you.

I *can* guarantee you that the scenario doesn't work with the components
currently released: that's why I asked the question

Sorry Phillip, you have to read every word of the post before you go racing
off leaping to conclusions.

There will be a RELEASED version of the OOXML converter on the server just
as soon as they can get it through testing. I guess that's what Curt is
referring to: I assume that he is testing it prior to release, and hopefully
we will get it soon -- but after they get the bugs out of it

Cheers

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
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Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
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[John McGhie]

Hi Phillip:

Yeah, well you need to recognise that I haven't seen the released version of
the Converter either.

I suspect that it is just a script that calls the File I/O engine from
Office 2008.

If a computer doesn't HAVE Office 2008, the converter would install the file
handling components of 2008. If the computer does have 2008, the script
would simply point to those components.

Either way, we'll find out when it comes out.

Cheers

Fine. But I read the whole thing through and the way you had worded
implied that if you already had 2004 installed 2008 it would over write
and take over all converters in 2004. My apologies for wrong implying. ;-)

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John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
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