Cannot save properly: Word saves document on previous (enclosing) folder with a different name!

[MacWordXY]

Hi

This is driving me nuts. This is a really weird bug of Word. I Cannot save properly a Word file. when I try to do it, Word seems to do it, but then I find that the original file has not been modified (changes have not been saved at all). Instead, Word saves such changes to a new document and places it in the enclosed (previous folder) with a different name

I have such Word file deep inside my hard disk

/Users/macwordxy/Documents/mwx---•••••/Research/Papersublications/John Paul Speketer Alan Stan/Paper & proceeding maths (2003)/Péret-Perol+03••TKL, apoptosis, XM & TM/03•Sent to Science - ACCEPTED!/02•Accepted with reduction to 50%/Final paper/04•Edited by M/Péret-Perol reviewed MS-M.do

When I open "Péret-Perol reviewed MS-M.doc", edit it and save it, Word creates a new file named "0" in the previous folder. All further editing is saved to such a file and not to the original one

If I now trash such "0" file and move my original file to the previous enclosing folder (where "0" was created), open it, edit it and save it, all changes are only saved to a new file named "L" in such same folder

Moving the original file further backwards to the previous enclosing folder and repeating the process saves changes to a new file on the same folder but now named "Péret-Perol reviewed "

ONLY WHEN I MOVE THE ORIGINAL FILE TO MY DESKTOP, THEN WORD SAVES CHANGES TO IT AND BEHAVES AS EXPECTED

System: Word 10.1.4 (Office 10.1.5) with Mac OS X 10.2.8 on PowerMac G4/500 (AGP) with 1 GB RAM. Booting from external FireWire hard disk

I remember experiencing this very same problem with previous versions of Word and previous Mac OS X 10.x versions as well..

What is going on? Any hint most appreciated.

 

[Beth Rosengard]

Hi XY,

I have no idea what's going on here so I asked one of the experts. Here's
what he came up with:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* Do you have a document management system running?

* Do you have Allow Fast Saves enabled?

* Is the drive you are trying to save to Local?

* Does the user ID you are using have Read/Write/Modify/Remove permissions
to the folder you are trying to save into?

* Does the user ID have RWXY permissions to the Temp folders on both the
server and local machine also?

You can get these weird problems if the userID in use to do the file
operations does not have the same permissions as the user ID in use on the
local machine (which can happen on a network).

Word requires Remove permission to save a file, because for safety and
backup reasons it never writes to the original file. It first writes the
new, then renames the original, then renames the new in its place, then
deletes the old.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--
Beth Rosengard
Mac MVP

Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/WordMac/index.htm>
Entourage Help Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/toc.html>

 

[MacWordXY]

Thanks Beth,

1. I do not have any document management system running.

2. Fast Saves is not allowed.

3. The drive is a local drive on the side of the Mac. Just linked to the Mac via FireWire.

4. I have Read/Write/Modify/Remove (RWXY) permissions to the folder I am trying to save into.

5. No server. I just work on my Mac, which is connected to internet. But the problem also arises if I disconnect from internet. Just my Mac and a hard disk next to it linked by FireWire to boot from. The user ID is the only admin (apart from root) and the only user for such machine and has RWXY permissions to the Temp folders on the local machine.

IMPORTANT: I CAN WRITE FILES TO SUCH FOLDER USING OTHER WORD PROCESSORS. THE PROBLEM ONLY ARISES WHEN I USE WORD.

Update: today when I open such word file, edit it and hit Command S to save it, the file is saved on the same folder (NOT THE PREVIOUS ONE LIKE BEFORE) but with a shorter name. Starting with the same name as the original file but with only 21 characters and ending in "#". For instance, the original file has the name "Tenoc-Cericon reviewed MS-R.doc" and the new one is named "Tenoc-Cericon review#". Therefore it seems a problem of Word with long names.

But even if I rename the original file as "Tenoc-Cericon revie.doc" the problem persists and the new file is named "Tenoc-Cericon revie.d". But in this case the editing is ALSO saved to the original file. Weird.

If I shorten the name of the original name to just 21 characters including the suffix like "Tenoc-Cericon revie.d", the problem goes away, editing changes are saved to such file OK and no new file is created.

Any feedback on how to avoid these problems most welcome.

Thanks.

 

[MacWordXY]

More feedback:

I have found that my previous report was performed with a file that was placed two folders before where it was supposed to be (see my original post for full details). At such position, the issue goes as reported in my previous message.

If I move the file to the place originally indicated, then even using short names for the file the problem arises: a new file named "0" is created on the previous folder. If i move the file to the previous folder, then a new file "L" is created on such folder. If i move the file further to the previous folder, a new file with a shorter (21 character) file is created on such folder. Weird.

But If I move the file further to the previous folder, further backwards to any previous folder or to the Desktop, the problem goes away. THEREFORE IT SEEMS MORE A PROBLEM WHEN I HAVE THE FILE DEEP INSIDE MY FOLDERS AND NOT DUE ONLY TO THE USE OF LONG NAMES. See my original post for full details of where the file was placed.

Is this a Word bug then? It seems to me that it is. Any ideas? Thanks.

 

[Dayo Mitchell]

I vaguely recall hearing something about a 255-character limit for the
entire file path? Would this apply in your case?

Dayo

 

[MacWordXY]

Dayo

Thanks

Since my path is something like

--
/Users/macwordxy/Documents/mwx---•••••/Research/Papersublications/John Paul Speketer Alan Stan/Paper & proceeding maths (2003)/Péret-Perol+03••TKL, apoptosis, XM & TM/03•Sent to Science - ACCEPTED!/02•Accepted with reduction to 50%/Final paper/04•Edited by M/Péret-Perol reviewed MS-M.do
--

It has more than 267 characters without spaces and more than 292 characters with spaces. Thus i think that you are right

BTW, is this a limitation of Word or of Mac OS X? If of Mac OS X do you know if fixed on Panther

Thanks again
Regards,

 

[Dayo Mitchell]

I don't know anything more than my vague memory, and it's possible that
isn't even the answer--but I suspect that if you Google for discussion about
file name limits (in Groups or on Mac sites), you may come across more
information.

However, there are probably *much* more efficient ways to track your papers
than in the folder/file names--a special Endnote Library, maybe? With notes
about the revision/submission process? Or, since this is for your own use,
there's lots of room to use abbreviations in your file names (ed, acc, rev).

By the way, easier to follow a thread if you include the old messages at the
bottom.

Dayo

 

[Beth Rosengard]

Aha! That's it then. Good catch, Dayo. There are two limits: Filename >
31 characters, and Pathname + Filename > 130 characters (more or less).
These are Word and Apple shared bugs from what I understand. I thought the
130 character limit pathname bug had been fixed, but apparently not. (You
are fully updated, right?) And I don't know if using Panther makes a
difference. I'll try to find out.

In the meantime, XY, you'll have to shorten your folder hierarchy and your
file names as a workaround.

--
Beth Rosengard
Mac MVP

Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/WordMac/index.htm>
Entourage Help Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/toc.html>

 

[Dayo Mitchell]

Thanks much for reporting your results.

Dayo

 

[Paul Berkowitz]

Dayo,

Thanks.

Since my path is something like:

---
/Users/macwordxy/Documents/mwx---€€€€€/Research/Papersublications/John Paul
Speketer Alan Stan/Paper & proceeding maths (2003)/Péret-Perol+03€€TKL,
apoptosis, XM & TM/03€Sent to Science - ACCEPTED!/02€Accepted with reduction
to 50%/Final paper/04€Edited by M/Péret-Perol reviewed MS-M.doc
---

It has more than 267 characters without spaces and more than 292 characters
with spaces. Thus i think that you are right.

BTW, is this a limitation of Word or of Mac OS X? If of Mac OS X do you know
if fixed on Panther?

1. Which version of Word are you using? The long-pathname bug was fixed in
Office 10.1.0 I think (maybe 10.1.1). Update using 10.1.2 and 10.1.4
updaters if you haven't.

2. It's possible that the limit was merely raised from 130 to 255 - I don't
recall. But I don't think so. So updating may well fix this for you.

3. There may be a problem if your startup disk (what comes before "/Users/"
- like Macintosh Hard Disk - has characters with accents. If it does, change
it.

4. None of those "/" slashes is an actual character, as opposed to a folder
name separator, is it? You shouldn't include "/" or ":" in folder or file
names.

5. Remove the bullets form folder names and see what happens. Word may not
understand a Mac Finder bullet correctly.


One of those should work. Or just name folders with shorter names.

--
Paul Berkowitz
MVP Entourage
Entourage FAQ Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/toc.html>
AppleScripts for Entourage: <http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/>

Please "Reply To Newsgroup" to reply to this message. Emails will be
ignored.

PLEASE always state which version of Entourage you are using - 2001 or X.
It's often impossible to answer your questions otherwise.

 

[MacWordXY (real name: Tony Curtis)]

Paul,

Thanks.

1. Latest versions of all except Mac OS X 10.2.8 instead of Panther. Word 10.1.4 (Office 10.1.5).

3. My startup disk has no accents. It is called MaXor160

4. Slashes are not in the folder or file names. I just drop the file over Super Get Info (Bare Bones at www.barebones.com> to get the path and then copy/paste it. Cool!

5. Bullets are OK. The problem is the total path length. My previous posts describe the actual character limit.

Thanks again.
Regards,

---
1. Which version of Word are you using? The long-pathname bug was fixed in
Office 10.1.0 I think (maybe 10.1.1). Update using 10.1.2 and 10.1.4
updaters if you haven't.

2. It's possible that the limit was merely raised from 130 to 255 - I don't
recall. But I don't think so. So updating may well fix this for you.

3. There may be a problem if your startup disk (what comes before "/Users/"
- like Macintosh Hard Disk - has characters with accents. If it does, change
it.

4. None of those "/" slashes is an actual character, as opposed to a folder
name separator, is it? You shouldn't include "/" or ":" in folder or file
names.

5. Remove the bullets form folder names and see what happens. Word may not
understand a Mac Finder bullet correctly.

One of those should work. Or just name folders with shorter names
---

 

[John McGhie [MVP Office Systems -- Word]]

Hi Dayo:

I *think* he's running into Word X's 31-character file name limit.

This limit is imposed by the very early version of CarbonLib that Word was
built with (it was one of the very first carbon apps). What we expected was
that Apple would update CarbonLib to provide 255-character file names. They
didn't: they added a new function. To provide long file names in Word X
would have meant going through and re-coding everything in word that touches
files: too big a job.

So if you do a "Save As", your file name will be truncated to 31 characters,
the old Mac standard. It's very annoying.

However, if you simply do a Save, Word should write back to the file without
changing its name.

So his problem remains "Why" is Word doing a "Save As" when it should be
doing a "Save".

I would like to ask whether the files on the removable drive are somehow
being marked as "read Only". Files on a CD ROM are marked as Read-only. I
guess its possible that a bug in the driver for the removable disk might be
treating the removable firewire drive as though it were a CD ROM, and thus
every file on the drive is treated as read-only, whether it actually is or
not.

When Word finds it has a file open which is read-only, when you save it
internally performs a Save As and prompts for a new file name.

Hope this helps

This responds to article

I vaguely recall hearing something about a 255-character limit for the
entire file path? Would this apply in your case?

Dayo

--

Please respond only to the newsgroup to preserve the thread.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Dayo Mitchell]

Well, the character limit problem was very much a guess, and Paul Berkowitz
if more familiar with how computers work than I am (I get the impression),
so have you run a test to see if you have the problem with and without
bullets in the path name?

Dayo

 

[TonyCurtis (was MacWordXY)]

Dayo

Yes, I have done such test. It is actually indicated in my previous eMails. The bullets are not the problem. The problem is the length of the path to the file

Thanks

---You wrote
Well, the character limit problem was very much a guess, and Paul Berkowitz
if more familiar with how computers work than I am (I get the impression),
so have you run a test to see if you have the problem with and without
bullets in the path name
---

 

[Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.]

Only applications that use carbon code is supposed to use the carbon Lib.
Genrally applications created as carbon applications allow OS9 applications to
be recoded so that they can work using OSX.

True OSX only code is called "coca". Coca applications don't use the carboblib
for anything.

Hi Dayo:

I *think* he's running into Word X's 31-character file name limit.

This limit is imposed by the very early version of CarbonLib that Word was
built with (it was one of the very first carbon apps). What we expected was
that Apple would update CarbonLib to provide 255-character file names. They
didn't: they added a new function. To provide long file names in Word X
would have meant going through and re-coding everything in word that touches
files: too big a job.

So if you do a "Save As", your file name will be truncated to 31 characters,
the old Mac standard. It's very annoying.

However, if you simply do a Save, Word should write back to the file without
changing its name.

So his problem remains "Why" is Word doing a "Save As" when it should be
doing a "Save".

I would like to ask whether the files on the removable drive are somehow
being marked as "read Only". Files on a CD ROM are marked as Read-only. I
guess its possible that a bug in the driver for the removable disk might be
treating the removable firewire drive as though it were a CD ROM, and thus
every file on the drive is treated as read-only, whether it actually is or
not.

When Word finds it has a file open which is read-only, when you save it
internally performs a Save As and prompts for a new file name.

Hope this helps

This responds to article


--

Please respond only to the newsgroup to preserve the thread.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

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[John McGhie [MVP Office Systems -- Word]]

Sorry Phil:

Not quite so.

Word X is an entirely Carbon application.

Word 11 (Word 2004) is a mixture, but most of it is Carbon also.

Almost all applications that were originally created before OS X went on
sale are done in Carbon: the cost of entirely rewriting them to do them as
Cocoa applications far exceeds their worth.

The only true Cocoa apps out there are small ones that could be easily
re-written from a clean sheet of paper.

Cheers

Only applications that use carbon code is supposed to use the carbon Lib.
Genrally applications created as carbon applications allow OS9 applications to
be recoded so that they can work using OSX.

True OSX only code is called "coca". Coca applications don't use the carboblib
for anything.

--

Please respond only to the newsgroup to preserve the thread.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]