cell corners and shadows

[Benn Goldschein]

I am trying to use table shadows and borders for the first time in FP 2003.
I have been able to use them in some cells and they look cool.
But in others I am getting the message:
"The margin or shadow size value you have specified is greater than the
available space surrounding the Layout. Specify a smaller margin or shadow
size value."
or
"Can't apply borders. The cell formatting table is too small."
and then:
"FP was unable to apply the decoration..
Make sure the cell formatting is well formed and and big enough to
accomodate the new decoration."

I have tried changing cell size, cell spacing, width, height, padding,
border width, margins.
Corner width (default 20) and height (default 20) Shadows width (default 10)
and softness (default 50) .
All to no avail.

any ideas, suggestions?

FP 2003 XP
bill

 

[Jim Buyens]

Well, first off, most people find Layout Tables a rather awkward feature. So,
don't be surprised if they seem a little, uh, awkward.

Basically, you're supposed to start by creating a "Layout Table", which you
should think of as a drawing space. Then, you add "Layout Cells" to the
layout table. Layout cells are the gadgets that can have rounded corners,
drop shadows, and so forth. All your content goes inside the layout cells.

FrontPage implements layout cells by subdividing the physical rows and cells
in the layout table. So, for example, if you create a layout table and then
draw a layout cell roughly in the middle of it, FrontPage converts the layout
table into three rows and three cells, like a tic-tac-toe board, and uses the
center cell for your layout cell. As you add effects (like rounded corners
and drow shadows) and as you add more cells, FrontPage keeps splitting,
merging, and resizing the phjysical rows, columns, and cells in the layout
table so everything ends up positioned where you want.

Notice that there's no room (sorry) in this discussion for overlap. If, for
example, you have two layout cells 5 pixels apart, you can't apply an effect
to either cell if the effect requires more than 5 pixels to display.

Does this help? If not, please post the URL of the problem page.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*-----------------------------­-----------------------
|\----------------------------­-----------------------
|| Microsoft Windows SharePoint Services Inside Out
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||----------------------------­-----------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/----------------------------­-----------------------
*-----------------------------­-----------------------

 

[Cheryl D Wise]

Rounded corners tutorial
http://mvp.wiserways.com/tutorials/corners/index.html

Which also includes alternative methods of creating rounded corners.

--
Cheryl D. Wise
MS FrontPage MVP
http://mvp.wiserways.com
http://starttoweb.com
Online instructor led web design training in FrontPage,
Dreamweaver and more!

 

[Bill gold]

But what do I change (cell spacing? cell padding? cell format?) to allow me
to use shadows

 

[Randy Morgan]

Would you consider layout tables and cells to be among those FP features
that ought to be avoided? It's nice to have that view where you can see
all the cell sizes at a glance, but other than that I haven't found any
particular benefit to using them. Am I missing some capability?

Thanks,
Randy Morgan

 

[Jim Buyens]

You select the layout cell and then use the Cell Formatting task pane.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Windows SharePoint Services Inside Out
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------

 

[Jim Buyens]

Responses interspersed...

Would you consider layout tables and cells to be among those FP features
that ought to be avoided?

In most cases, yes.

It's nice to have that view where you can see
all the cell sizes at a glance, but other than that I haven't found any
particular benefit to using them. Am I missing some capability?

Thanks,
Randy Morgan

The designers of HTML visualized all page designs as "liquid". In other
words, the design would automatically self-adjust to the width of the browser
window, the fonts that the visitor had available, the font size that the
visitor chose, and so forth. This, however, is hard for many people to
visualize, and complications arise when some content, such as pictures, is
fixed in size.

As a result, there are now various approaches to "fixed" page layouts:
fixed-size HTML tables and CCS2 positioning, for example. But none of these
is as easy to use as, say, PowerPoint, Visio, Publishers, or PageMaker.

Layout table are an attempt to implement fixed-width pages that use HTML
tables for positioning, but that *don't* require modifying the HTML table
directly. Instead, you drag, drop, and resize layout cells using the mouse,
much as you would in a true drawing program.

You draw the layout table, then draw the layout cells, then put your content
in the layout cells. You never put content in the layout table directly, and
you modify the layout table and layout cells except by using the special
commands provided.

In practice, the Layout tables don't provide all the drawing commands most
people want, and this makes them hard to use. For example, there are no
commands that align several layout cells to the same top position, or to
uniform horizontal spacing. As a result, most people who try Layout Tables
give them up.

Contrary opinions are welcome.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Windows SharePoint Services Inside Out
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------

 

[Bill gold]

Thanks Cheryl.
Nice Tutorial.
I have to agree with Jim Buyens. Layout cells are just too much bother.
i have tried to use shadows for 4 days and still cant get it right.
I don't see the real value in cell corners as they are as common as dead
armadilloes on Texas highways and just as attractive. I found some beauty in
the shadows but not worth all the bother and are simply unsupportable. Give
me FP tables for positioning.
thanx

 

[Cheryl D Wise]

Thank you for the compliment,

While rounded corners are very common the same techniques can be applied
with other corner graphics.

If you aren't terribly concerned with older browsers you can use one of the
pure CSS method see: http://phoenity.com/newtedge/drop_shadow/ or
http://www.1976design.com/blog/archive/2003/11/14/49/

FWIW, I use pure CSS for layouts and leave tables for data but others like
Thomas still prefer tables.<smile />

--
Cheryl D. Wise
MS FrontPage MVP
http://mvp.wiserways.com
http://starttoweb.com
Online instructor led web design training in FrontPage,
Dreamweaver and more!

 

[Bill gold]

--
bill

Thank you for the compliment,

While rounded corners are very common the same techniques can be applied
with other corner graphics.

If you aren't terribly concerned with older browsers you can use one of the
pure CSS method see: http://phoenity.com/newtedge/drop_shadow/ or
http://www.1976design.com/blog/archive/2003/11/14/49/

FWIW, I use pure CSS for layouts and leave tables for data but others like
Thomas still prefer tables.<smile />

--
Cheryl D. Wise
MS FrontPage MVP
http://mvp.wiserways.com
http://starttoweb.com
Online instructor led web design training in FrontPage,
Dreamweaver and more!






Thanks again Cheryl

Kind of funny though the phoenity page displays in my Ie6 as a white page
and beautifully in Firefox