Character Spacing After Import (5.1 -> 98/01/X)

[Matthew Bowles]

Hello everyone, I've run into another problem with the migration to
Word v.x from Word 5.1 and 98, and wonder if anyone has any
suggestions. I am running v.x (with all of the latest service updates,
on system version 10.2.3) trying to open documents created in 5.1; the
documents contain text which is size 10 palatino, justified (except
for headings and titles, which are centered and size 18.) When I open
one of these documents in the new version, certain characters (o and
o, for example, there are many others) appear very close together, and
in some cases touch each other. This actually gets worse when
printing, and the spacing between words is very uneven (yes, the
paragraphs are justified, but looking at the same page printed on the
same printer in 5.1 the spacing both between words and between
characters is much, much neater. This is a real problem - the
documents are almost unreadable. Interestingly, the same problem
doesn't happen if I cut and paste a paragraph into a new document in
v.x, however, this isn't feasible for some of these extremely long
documents.

These problems happen both on screen and on paper.

Here is what I have tried so far:

-Saving the document as a v.x version; no effect.
-Unchecking "use printer metrics" in Word->Preferences->Compatability;
this does solve the problem with the letters running together, but all
of the sudden both inter-line and inter-word spacing changes,
rendering the document unusable again, because my manual-hyphenations
are now in the middle of lines, and so on. I have to use these manual
hyphenations because the document is for publication, and I need to
lay it out pretty precisely.
-Enabling fractional character widths; same effect and problems as
above.
-Converting the documents to a different font; I've tried both making
the change back in 5.1, and also making it in v.x, either way, the
same problem happens (with the five or six fonts I've tried.)

In the past, when I was running OS 9, I would open 5.1 documents in
5.1 and 98 documents in 98; now that I am in OS X I need to import all
of my documents to v.x. Now that I try it, I see that the same problem
happens in 98 as well (when trying to open 5.1 documents.)

Any help would be *very* much appreciated - I'm pulling my hair out
over this one.

Thank you-

 

[Beth Rosengard]

Hi Matt,

Here's the only thing I can come up with. You say that cutting and pasting
a paragraph into a new Word X doc clears up the problem. So what about
copying the entire document *except the last paragraph mark* and pasting
into a new doc. It doesn't matter that the document is a long one. Try it
and see.

--
Beth Rosengard
Mac MVP

Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/WordMac/index.htm>
Entourage Help Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/toc.html>

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Mathew:

Sorry: The definitive answer to your question is "The OS X fonts have
different metrics: you need to re-hyphenate."

Basically, you shouldn't be expecting Word to do Production Publishing: it's
not designed for it. Having said that, I do it all the time too

Check your compatibility options: this is a per-document setting, you need
to fix it for each document. I always set to the latest version (everything
off) then re-hyphenate. It's just quicker and more reliable...

Make sure the printer you have selected as the default is the one you are
going to use, make sure you are formatting the document for that specific
printer, make sure the driver you are using for that printer is actually the
one made by the printer manufacturer. It's all a chain: Word obtains the
printer and font metrics from the operating system which gets them from the
printer which gets them from its driver.

Cheers

 

[Matthew Bowles]

I see; that was the answer I've been afraid of (some of these
documents are several hundred pages long).

What program(s) would you suggest for production publishing? I don't
understand what they would do differently the Word, but I certainly
see the necessity for a change now!

Thanks John,

Matthew

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word]]

Hi Matthew:

Actually, the change that needs to occur is in the way you work with Word.
I do all of my production publishing from Word, but I work the same way in
Word as I would in FrameMaker, using the same pagination control techniques
and the same reliance on styles.

This produces a document that will easily cross platforms and operating
systems and still work well.

Whether you use a Production Publishing system or a Desktop Publishing
System or not is not the issue. When you change platforms, you change font
metrics. Word-processor documents will repaginate when that happens. They
must: that's what a word-processor is designed to do.

A word-processor is designed to "flow" its text. This is the opposite of a
page layout program, which is designed to place text on specific pages.

If you want the ability of your software to determine which text fits on
each page, then you use a word-processor and design the document so the text
will flow, then work in such a manner that when it flows, it preserves the
sense and appearance of the document.

With a page layout program, you do things the opposite way.

So: Perhaps the most suitable production publishing program for the Mc is
FrameMaker. It will indeed flow text for you. It will indeed fix the text
on specific pages for you.

But so will Word, if you use the correct techniques. However, Word's
automation is a lot more powerful than FrameMaker's, and for that reason
YOU will get a lot more work up to standard and out the door in Word than
you will in FrameMaker. Which is why I pad my quote up by between 50 and
100 per cent if I am forced to use FrameMaker (I do books and manuals and
stuff for a living -- time is *my* money, and FrameMaker slows me down a
lot).

I suggest that you hang around here while we teach you how to drive Word in
such a manner that it will produce a good result in a production publishing
role.

Start by removing every single one of the page breaks in your document.
Out! All of them! Learn to paginate with Keep With Next and Keep Lines
Together. In your styles. If you make this one simple change to your
working method, documents will move smoothly from OS to OS, from PC to Mac,
and nobody will know the difference.

There's a lot more I could tell you -- come back when you're hungry!

Cheers

This responds to microsoft.public.mac.office.word on 16 Jan 2004 08:37:11
-0800, (e-mail address removed) (Matthew Bowles):

 

[Matthew Bowles]

John,

The problem occurs, however, not when changing platforms but when changing
versions of Word. For instance, on my OS 9 machine, when I open a Word 5.1
document in Word 98, and try to print it (all of my body text must be
justified) certain characters sometimes - but not in every instance - run
together so badly that they are touching. In other places, spaces are wildly
different widths. I don't see this problem at all in 5.1, and if I start
from scratch with a new 98 (or 2001, or v.x) document I have no problems. If
I disable word's option to hold the layout to the printer metrics, the text
spacing is fine, but all of the sudden a line with the same words will need
to wrap in 98 but fits on a single line in 5.1, and line spacing is adjusted
upward by what looks to be about 25% or 50% of a line. Very strange stuff -
I guess 98 and newer do render fonts a bit differently - if I take a screen
shot and zoom way, way in I can see slight differences. I think it is
something in the architecture of the programs - Word 98, 01, and v.x, which
seem much closer to each other than to 5.1, all have this problem when
working with other documents, but I can move among those three with no
problems.

I guess in the end cross platform consistency isn't terribly important for
my work, because my documents are composed of either my own text, or text
added by cut and paste from other's documents which I then format, and then
printed on my laser and sent to a printer on paper. I am only now running
into this issue as I try to move over to OS X (on a new, OS X-only machine)
and import these 5.1 documents into v.x so that I don't need to work in the
classic environment. Eventually, I'll reach a point (within a year or two)
where all of my current documents will have been original to v.x, so
hopefully I won't have problems with consistency. Even before I run into the
flowing / page breaks issue, the most basic problem is hyphenation. I do
need to hyphenate, and the automatic hyphenation function is not good
enough, so I need to do things manually - and soon as the length of a line
of text changes, obviously things go off.

I've been preparing text for publication successfully in 5.1 for almost ten
years now, but I guess now that I am modernizing the limits of my knowledge
about these techniques which were not needed in 5.1 becomes clear. Thanks
again for the guidance - I very much appreciate everyone's help.

Matthew

 

[Tim Murray]

But so will Word, if you use the correct techniques. However, Word's

automation is a lot more powerful than FrameMaker's, and for that reason
YOU will get a lot more work up to standard and out the door in Word than
you will in FrameMaker. Which is why I pad my quote up by between 50 and
100 per cent if I am forced to use FrameMaker (I do books and manuals and
stuff for a living -- time is *my* money, and FrameMaker slows me down a
lot).

I'm so tempted.... - Tim

 

[Tim Murray]

You might want to check to see if you're using the 'correct' Palatino, and
that you're comparing apples to apples.

One problem in Windows is that it lets you use fonts you don't really have.
If you are connected to a PostScript printer, you find that your font menus
contain the Type 1 fonts found on that printer according to the PPD, a file
that tells the driver what a printer can do and what fonts it has. If you
don't have the Palatino Type 1 font files you can still use it, but the
metrics will be a bit off.

The Mac has a slightly different issue ... the fonts shipped with the
operating system have been crap for years. Up until OSX, a font suitcase may
have included a mix of Type 1 and TrueType, and further, Apple never shipped
the necessary printer, or outline, files needed to go with the suitcase
fonts.

I'm not sure whether OSX shipped with a Palatino.dfont or not. My personal
machine does not have it, but as soon as I installed the operating system I
replaced most dfont files that had (for example) an Adobe Type 1 or OpenType
counterpart.

And don't listen to what John says about FrameMaker. I've been trying to talk
him in to going into the Betty Ford Clinic for Word Junkies, but he won't
listen. It may take an family intervention session.

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word]]

Hi Tim!

I put that troll out there just to see if you were still awake

Next time I have to bid FrameMaker on a job, I will give 'em your number

This responds to microsoft.public.mac.office.word on Sat, 17 Jan 2004

I'm so tempted.... - Tim

--

Please post all comments to the newsgroup to maintain the thread.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word]]

This responds to microsoft.public.mac.office.word on Sat, 17 Jan 2004

And don't listen to what John says about FrameMaker. I've been trying to talk
him in to going into the Betty Ford Clinic for Word Junkies, but he won't
listen. It may take an family intervention session.

My name is John, and I am a WordAholic...

Sorry Tim: I used FrameMaker a few months ago on a job. I SWEAR it has
gotten WORSE!! More likely, I have just forgotten all the tips and tricks


Cheers

--

Please post all comments to the newsgroup to maintain the thread.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]