COMPATIBILITY

J

Jewels

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger)
Processor: Intel

I've read the recent comments on the compatibility and am I assuming correctly that all pc users that I contact must download this pack to read ? I send word docs to the media - there is no way they are going to download a pack, when they've never needed to before, just to be able to satisfy my requirements. This is absurd.
If I uninstall Word 2008 and then reinstall my old Mac X, will I then be able to send readable documents to others like I always used to?
I have to comment I am somewhat angry to have completely wasted $400, plus the fact I have already lost business, as others cannot read my docs, which has been unknown to me for the past 3 months !!!
 
J

John McGhie

I am afraid someone has been telling you some outrageous rubbish :)

Either that, or you are trolling :)

Yes, PC Word versions earlier than Office 2007 need an update to read the
new PC/Mac Word formats. That was pushed out to them automatically, more
than two years ago, well before Office 2008 was released. I would be very
surprised if ANYONE on a PC has not had it for more than a year.

While it is true that you "can" save back to the old format, you should be
aware that the old format cannot store some of the modern features you might
want to use (You will be warned, but if you proceed with the downgrade, it
will delete content). And it takes up more than twice as much disk space.

So rather that setting it as your default save format, my suggestion would
be to leave the current format as the default, and save back to the old
unreliable format only when you encounter a user on a version earlier than
Office X who can't use the converter.

Hope this helps

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger)
Processor: Intel

I've read the recent comments on the compatibility and am I assuming correctly
that all pc users that I contact must download this pack to read ? I send word
docs to the media - there is no way they are going to download a pack, when
they've never needed to before, just to be able to satisfy my requirements.
This is absurd.
If I uninstall Word 2008 and then reinstall my old Mac X, will I then be able
to send readable documents to others like I always used to?
I have to comment I am somewhat angry to have completely wasted $400, plus the
fact I have already lost business, as others cannot read my docs, which has
been unknown to me for the past 3 months !!!

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 
M

MC

John McGhie said:
Yes, PC Word versions earlier than Office 2007 need an update to read the
new PC/Mac Word formats. That was pushed out to them automatically, more
than two years ago, well before Office 2008 was released. I would be very
surprised if ANYONE on a PC has not had it for more than a year.

All I know is that the 20-30 individuals at my biggest client and
closest collaborator cannot open .docx files, and it is absolutely not
appropriate for me to insist that the client installs the patch. It's my
job to supply what they want.
 
J

Jim Gordon MVP

MC said:
All I know is that the 20-30 individuals at my biggest client and
closest collaborator cannot open .docx files, and it is absolutely not
appropriate for me to insist that the client installs the patch. It's my
job to supply what they want.

Hi MC,

John M is correct that PC users who have been installing security
updates even occasionally during the past couple years will not
experience the file compatibility problem.

And you are correct that there are many PC users who simply do not
install security updates. While it is incredibly stupid on their part,
they don't do it. Plus, they have a host of idiotic excuses for not
doing it. You are correct that you are not in a position to explain to
them how to maintain their stuff. They certainly don't listen to
security experts who urge them to update, so I doubt they would listen
to you, either, no matter how right you would be.

Office 2004 on the Mac is the most file and feature compatible version
with Office 2003 on Windows. In your situation, Office 2004 is the
version I recommend that you use if the Save As feature in 2008 isn't
giving you the results you desire. Office 2008 comes with a satisfaction
guarantee, so you can return it and get your money back, then install
Office 2004.
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/productrefund/refund.mspx

When your client lets you know that they are installing a newer version
of Office, that's the time to get the latest Mac version on your
computer. Windows Office 2003 support isn't scheduled to end until 2014,
so it might be a while. Maybe they will turn their brains on and switch
to Macs in the future. This isn't as outrageous a thought as it used to
be, but don't hold your breath.

As to the reason why Microsoft changed from .doc to .docx - it wasn't
because Microsoft thought that .docx is a better file format. They know
it in many ways it is not. The .docx file format is a response to
pressure from the Open Source community, which was whining that .doc is
a proprietary, non-human readable (binary) format.

In response to the whining (which had gotten the attention of government
agencies who started to switch to OpenOffice and hurting Microsoft's
sales and reputation), Microsoft came up with an open format based on
existing XML standards. Microsoft submitted their open XML format
proposals to international standards committees, which found the
Microsoft standard to be more open and superior to the OpenDoc format,
which the OpenOffice ant-Microsoft fans were betting on.

IMHO the switch to .docx is based purely on politics and preserving
market share. It has nothing at all to do with introducing a better
technology. It cost Microsoft millions of dollars so their products can
do something in a different way that they were already doing perfectly:
saving files.

..doc format has only one drawback - it's proprietary. The .doc format
has been reverse engineered and hundreds of programs can read and write
to the format. It is binary and straightforward, meaning it has compact
files that don't take up a lot of drive space.

..docx is really a zip file. If you unzip a .docx you'll see that it is a
folder full of text files that you can open, read and modify in any text
editor. So if you are paranoid that there is something evil going on
inside this format, you can just look at everything all by yourself abd
be asssured everything is OK. You can change the code right there if you
want to. Text files are very inefficient ways to distribute computer
information, which is why Microsoft decided to zip them.

As for the massive inconvenience caused by switching file formats, I
think the Open Source & anti-Microsoft communities would be relishing it
if their OpenDoc format had won out over the Microsoft open XML format.
But it didn't and now the Open Source community is quiet about the whole
issue, with occasional complaints about huge file sizes (not surprising
given that text is an awful way to save binary information).

A skeptic might say that the new XML file format is an inferior format
foisted onto the world by a rabid OpenSource community, whose own
strategy backfired.

An optimist might say the world is better off with human readable, open
file format documents and all this conversion trouble is worth it so you
can see what is actually going on inside the document files. There's no
hanky panky and anyone can go in and modify the code to their heart's
delight with just a text editor.

IMHO from a technical perspective the new file format is a huge,
wasteful expense for all concerned. But I think Microsoft had little
choice. The pressure to do it was external, and therefore the change
was necessary.

-Jim

--
Jim Gordon
Mac MVP

MVPs are independent experts who are not affiliated with Microsoft.


Visit my blog
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-i7JMeio7cqvhotIUwCzaJWq9
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Jim:

That's a great post! Thank you for spending the time :)

As you know, I have a different view of some of the points you raise...

You are correct that you are not in a position to explain to
them how to maintain their stuff. They certainly don't listen to
security experts who urge them to update, so I doubt they would listen
to you, either, no matter how right you would be.

Yeah, we have retired from the battlefield also, at work. We just say
"Well, .docx is the format we use. Sorry. If you have a problem with it,
call your Help Desk!" But then, the outfit I am contracting to is a very
large company :)
As to the reason why Microsoft changed from .doc to .docx - it wasn't
because Microsoft thought that .docx is a better file format. They know
it in many ways it is not.

Well! That's certainly an alternative view :) I would have thought
"Smaller, more robust, more powerful, more flexible, and non-proprietary"
might have registered on somebody's meter :)
The .docx file format is a response to
pressure from the Open Source community, which was whining that .doc is
a proprietary, non-human readable (binary) format.

Naaahhhh! You're just saying that to wind me up :) I was talking to
Microsoft about moving Word to SGML in 1989, before the "Open Source"
movement was even a gleam in it's daddy's eye :)

Microsoft actually did put out an SGML extension to Word, in around
1990-ish. That was in response to whining from the US/UK/Australian
Military/Government (and Boeing!).

What we have now, is simply the optimised version of that.

SGML was an intellectually eloquent idea. But I said for years "If SGML is
the answer, it was a silly question!" Of course, IBM loved it, because a)
they invented it, and b) it required a computer the size of a house, and c)
it required an army of consultants to make it work...

WordPerfect did some good work in the area at that time, and everyone
thought they had Microsoft beaten. Microsoft was worried for a minute! But
as they discovered "compliant", "well-formed" and "valid" together form a
lexicon that describes almost all the sins there are.

As the various interpretation of "Web Browser" have shown on a small scale,
it is easy to get an application that is "compliant" with any given
specification of SGML. Making one that displays the exact same result is a
bridge too far.

And that's just for a simple browser application to display HTML -- a
simplistic cut-down of SGML.

XML provides a perfect circuit-breaker to the whole problem. AND it is
small, fast, and rugged :)
In response to the whining (which had gotten the attention of government
agencies who started to switch to OpenOffice and hurting Microsoft's
sales and reputation), Microsoft came up with an open format based on
existing XML standards.

I am not sure that I would agree with the phrasing there -- OOXML is not
"based on" existing XML standards, it IS standard XML. So is ODF. Both are
exactly compliant with XML.

OOXML and ODF are effectively different DTDs and FOSIs (or if you like,
XSLTs) implemented in the same standard syntax. ODF is just the "no-frills
version". It was purposely cut back to enable the relatively feeble
machines it is designed for to parse it easily. It's a bit like Esperanto.
Esperanto (remember that?) was designed as a world-wide natural language
that would be easy to use, easy to learn, and standard throughout the world.

Problem is, Esperanto is an abridged version, and like any "lite" version of
anything, it does not have the full power of, say, English. ODF is like a
subcompact car: small, cheap, and it will get you many places with
reasonable fuel consumption. But you probably wouldn't buy one, because
your family needs something a bit more capable in one or more areas.
Microsoft submitted their open XML format
proposals to international standards committees, which found the
Microsoft standard to be more open and superior to the OpenDoc format,
which the OpenOffice ant-Microsoft fans were betting on.

Now, that bit I agree with. I do not think Microsoft had any intention of
making their XML format into an international "standard" originally. They
didn't need to: XML was already a standard, there was no need to do any more
than that. Anyone who knew XML could read a Microsoft Word document, and
extract the DTD and the FOSI. They don't NEED a "standard".

However, the "Anyone But Microsoft" crowd were busily trying to get ODF
ratified as "the" standard. Microsoft didn't want that -- seriously didn't
want that. Because ODF is not powerful enough to describe the content of an
Office document. And the ABM camp knew it. Had they succeeded in making
ODF the new COBOL, they would have been able to force the American courts to
put Microsoft out of business, something that their legitimate efforts were
conspicuously failing to do.

Thwarted in this ambition, these people next turned their attention to Wall
Street. And we can all see the result. The ABM camp didn't care what they
wrecked, provided they made money when they pumped it on the way up, then
made even more money short-selling on the way down.

I wonder how the ex-employees of Bear Stearns, Washington Mutual, AIC, etc
feel now? Well: that's what these people were trying to do to Microsoft.
Perhaps they were forgetting that there are millions and millions of people
around the world who also need to feed their families, who owe at least part
of their business income to the products of Microsoft and its partners.
IMHO the switch to .docx is based purely on politics and preserving
market share. It has nothing at all to do with introducing a better
technology. It cost Microsoft millions of dollars so their products can
do something in a different way that they were already doing perfectly:
saving files.

Well, I quite strongly disagree with that. The binary formats do not
support "data warehousing". And that's the holy grail. Making every piece
of knowledge in any of a corporation's documents instantly useable in any
other document. The nascent "Content Controls" that are beginning to appear
in PC Office, and can be found in Mac Office 2008 if you search real hard,
are part of the beginning of making this work. XML is designed for this
functionality; the .doc binary can't do it reliably.
.doc format has only one drawback - it's proprietary. The .doc format
has been reverse engineered and hundreds of programs can read and write
to the format. It is binary and straightforward, meaning it has compact
files that don't take up a lot of drive space.

It has three other major drawbacks that I can think of, just off the top of
my head...

1) It is an unholy rat's nest of linked lists and pointers. Which means a
single one-bit error in a disc read will potentially break the entire file
(i.e. "document corruption" -- that's what it is!)

2) It's not extensible. At all. You can not add new "kinds of things" to
the .doc format. You have to wait for Microsoft to do so. Any user can add
anything they like to XML.

3) It is not fault-tolerant. You can either read and understand all of the
binary format, or you cannot open the file. XML has built-in resiliency --
an application will read and process what it can understand, and ignore the
rest. That gives an infinite number of levels of graceful fall-back.

4) It's huge: up to four times the disk space of XML.
IMHO from a technical perspective the new file format is a huge,
wasteful expense for all concerned. But I think Microsoft had little
choice. The pressure to do it was external, and therefore the change
was necessary.

My opinion is not quite so harsh :) I agree there was huge pressure on
Microsoft to change. Some of it came from users like me who were thoroughly
sick of losing data to Word document corruption. Another lot came from the
military, government, and industry customers, who wanted a smaller more
rugged file that they could data-mine.

I happen to think that the "real cost" of switching to XML for nearly all
users is almost negligible. It's out there. It costs nothing. It works --
Download the converter and move on!

The most immediate benefit, and the one most users will notice first, is
that the amount of disk space occupied by Office files will begin to shrink
dramatically. A little later the more professional companies will begin to
notice that the number of calls logged to the help desk about broken
documents will fall off sharply.

There are huge competitive advantages available to businesses who truly
understand and utilise XML. But those benefits require thought and effort
to realise. Large corporations will have a team on this out in the back
room right now. Customers who believe the FUD being spread by the opposing
forces will miss out. There's a name for that: "Darwinian Evolution" :)

Cheers

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 

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