Document Styles vs. Normal Template Styles

[Norm]

I'm using Word 2008. And yes I'm new to using styles. :-(

I am confused as to when one updates their Normal Template for changes
to a Style.

As I read through Clive's "Bend... " I created a body text of my own and
creatively called it "bt".

Now, once I do that and save to my Normal Template, it will be used for
all New Documents. At least I think that is correct.

However, does one ever modify their own "bt" for just one document and
leave the Normal Template "bt" alone? I'm missing some concept when
Clive talks about changing an entire document's formatting for a client
by simply changing his "bt".

There is also the issue of the "Automatically Update" setting but I
won't confuse me or this post with that.

Thank you for any help.

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Norm;

I believe the reason you're encountering any degree of confusion is because
there are no absolute answers to the questions ‹ the answers are not only
relative to any particular user, but also may vary within any given user's
workflow. Keep in mind as well that Clive's work is intended to relate how
all this works best for him based on his experience & use. He'll be the
first to advocate that "Bend Word..." is not to be taken as an instruction
manual on how things should be done. That said...

Updating the bt style in Normal.dotm depends on whether you want the style
to include those changes in any new documents you create from that point on
or whether you only want those changes to affect the current document you're
in when you make the change. Any pre-existing documents will not be impacted
either way. To put this in perspective, think of a new document as being a
self-contained entity that is predicated on the style & other specifications
of the template on which it was created. From that moment on, however, the
document has no dynamic connection to the template on which it was based.

"Automatically Update", likewise, is a subjective issue, but one that "can"
get you in trouble if you aren't particularly careful. If you use that
setting for a style the style will be updated accordingly any time you
reformat text to which it has been applied. Therefore, the style may be in a
constant state of flux, which can be quite disconcerting at the least. IMHO
‹ although there may be some who have justification to disagree ‹ that box
should never be used... Especially in a template.

On the rare occasion I've used it it has been in documents where I created a
style in & for that document only ‹ IOW, a style which I did *not* add to a
template but one which existed only in the document where it was created. My
sole motive in those cases was that others had 'suggestions' which were
ongoing, contradictory, whimsical & inconsistent, but I had no option but to
cooperate with the fools involved or forfeit a hefty fee A situation I
have endeavored to avoid ever since.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Norm]

Bob:

Thank you very much. See below...

To put this in perspective, think of a new document as being a
self-contained entity that is predicated on the style & other specifications
of the template on which it was created. From that moment on, however, the
document has no dynamic connection to the template on which it was based.

Hmmmm.... so if I edit a doc, save it, change bt, return to that same
doc, it will be using the prior version of bt not the new one?

"Automatically Update", likewise, is a subjective issue, but one that "can"
get you in trouble if you aren't particularly careful. If you use that
setting for a style the style will be updated accordingly any time you
reformat text to which it has been applied. Therefore, the style may be in a
constant state of flux, which can be quite disconcerting at the least. IMHO
‹ although there may be some who have justification to disagree ‹ that box
should never be used... Especially in a template.

It sounds like all of you agree John, Clive, Shauna and you. I'll
try to get MS to recode my copy of Word 2008 to delete that option.



Do I always want to have a doc attached to Normal when I create a new
style so that when I select Add to Template it is available in the
future? Or will it be anyway?

Appreciate the help,

Norm

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Norm:

Hmmmm.... so if I edit a doc, save it, change bt, return to that same
doc, it will be using the prior version of bt not the new one?

No, you do not get away with that one: you know better than that.

Back to first principles: "Styles are LOCAL to the specific document.

A document makes NO further reference to its template after it is created,
unless you force it.

You can force it, using "Automatically update styles on open" or using the
Organiser. But if you do not force it, there will be no further reference
to the template.

And you cannot leave "Automatically update styles on open" set for the
Normal template, it switches itself off each time you close (safety
feature).

So if you update bt, you have changed the style in the open document.

Unless you choose "Add to template", that's where it will stay.

If you save, close, and re-open, bt remains updated in the document you
saved it in.

In the Normal template, bt is the old version, unchanged.

Which means you COULD revert the document to "standard" by using
Tools>Templates and Add-ins>"Automatically update styles on open".

Note that "Automatically update styles on open" is NOT the same control as
"Automatically update" on the Styles dialog, and it is not the same as "Add
to template" on the styles dialog. Don't get them confused.

"Automatically update styles on open" is on Tools>Templates and Add-ins...

As soon as you check "Automatically update styles on open" box ON, Word
instantly replaces the style table in that document with the one in the
Normal template: so be careful with that box: it's all-or-nothing, it's
instant, and there's no "Do you really mean to destroy your document?"
warning

"Automatically update" on the Modify Styles dialog applies just to a single
style. If you make a change to the formatting of any paragraph formatted
with that style while that option is on, it updates the style in the
document immediately. No change is made to the template unless you also
check "Add to template".

Again, "Automatically update" is instant, there's no warning: but it updates
only one style, and only in the open document.

It sounds like all of you agree John, Clive, Shauna and you. I'll
try to get MS to recode my copy of Word 2008 to delete that option.

Look: They're Feature. They're a bit sudden death, is all. If you are
using Word's built-in Table Of Contents formats, you must leave
"Automatically update" set on for the TOC styles, or Word will be unable to
change the TOC format.

When you are creating a new template, you might turn it on while you are
hacking and tweaking, until such time as you get everything to your taste.

Just don't forget to turn it off for each style after you're done.

"Automatically update styles on open" was designed for workgroups and it
used to be a very, very powerful feature, but they broke it. Now, you
should turn it off and leave it off.

In the old days, you could leave all documents created from a workgroup
template set to "Automatically update styles on open". Then the project
editor could update the styles in the master template, and each document
created from them would instantly get the new formats when it was opened.

However, if you are using List Numbering in a document, your lists will be
broken as soon as the style updates, so you cannot use it at all with modern
documents.

And BACKUPS are next to Godliness, and well ahead of Cleanliness if you are
going to use power features like that.

Yeah: we all agree: don't tempt fate unless you are SURE...

Do I always want to have a doc attached to Normal when I create a new
style so that when I select Add to Template it is available in the
future? Or will it be anyway?

Depends. And Depends.

Right at the moment, we have discussed using ONLY Normal as your template.
If you are doing that, then the answers are "Yes" and "Yes".

Yes, because the document is "attached" to the Normal template whether you
like it or not. And Yes, because with only one template in play, the only
place the addition can go is the Normal template.

As soon as you get the hang of using templates, you will create others: one
for each kind of document you create.

At that stage, the answers become "No" and "No".

No: You have to ensure that the document is attached to the template you
want to use for it.

And No, the addition will go to the template you choose, so you need to
ensure you choose the correct one.

Cheers

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Norm]

Hi John:

Hmmmm.... so if I edit a doc, save it, change bt, return to that same
doc, it will be using the prior version of bt not the new one?

No, you do not get away with that one: you know better than that.[/QUOTE]

I should know better. But I have a real block on styles used in an open
doc.

And I now see my question could lead to misinterpretation.
I'll try again...
1. I open a new doc, Doc 1, based on Normal Template. I use mainly bt
in that Doc 1 and save it.

2. I open a new doc, Doc 2, I update bt and Save to Template.

(At this point I think the Normal Template has been updated for the new
bt)

3. I now open Doc 1 again and edit and add some text. At this point is
Doc 1 using the bt in effect when it was originally created or the new
bt?

Not sure if that is how you read my original question or not. Sorry for
any confusion!

Back to first principles: "Styles are LOCAL to the specific document.

A document makes NO further reference to its template after it is created,
unless you force it.

So, if you continue to use that document after it is created, it will
continue to use the styles that were in effect when it was created since
it will NOT make any further reference to its template.

When you are creating a new template, you might turn it on while you are
hacking and tweaking, until such time as you get everything to your taste.

Not sure I follow that one. What does one lose if they are tweaking
their styles without turning on "Automatically update" while doing so?

Depends. And Depends.

Right at the moment, we have discussed using ONLY Normal as your template.
If you are doing that, then the answers are "Yes" and "Yes".

Yes, because the document is "attached" to the Normal template whether you
like it or not. And Yes, because with only one template in play, the only
place the addition can go is the Normal template.

As soon as you get the hang of using templates, you will create others: one
for each kind of document you create.

At that stage, the answers become "No" and "No".

No: You have to ensure that the document is attached to the template you
want to use for it.

OK, so I have Template 2 and it is attached and I update a style that is
from and also in Normal Template.

So, if I Save to Template it will save it to Template 2 but not to
Normal. Correct?

And No, the addition will go to the template you choose, so you need to
ensure you choose the correct one.

And if I want that change in that style to also go to the Normal
Template, I would have to make the same change to it while in a doc
attached to Normal Template and Save to Template. Correct?

Or maybe there is a shortcut for changing it in both places?

Thanks much.

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Norm:

1. I open a new doc, Doc 1, based on Normal Template. I use mainly bt
in that Doc 1 and save it.

2. I open a new doc, Doc 2, I update bt and Save to Template.

(At this point I think the Normal Template has been updated for the new
bt)

3. I now open Doc 1 again and edit and add some text. At this point is
Doc 1 using the bt in effect when it was originally created or the new
bt?

Not sure if that is how you read my original question or not. Sorry for
any confusion!

Yes I did, and yes it will.

So, if you continue to use that document after it is created, it will
continue to use the styles that were in effect when it was created since
it will NOT make any further reference to its template.

That's correct. Style changes will happen after creation of the document
only if you force them.

Not sure I follow that one. What does one lose if they are tweaking
their styles without turning on "Automatically update" while doing so?

Time If you think you can save time by turning it on, do so. It's a
feature that's there to be used, like any other. But if you think you will
forget to turn it off, leave it off.

OK, so I have Template 2 and it is attached and I update a style that is
from and also in Normal Template.

So, if I Save to Template it will save it to Template 2 but not to
Normal. Correct?

In Word 2008, that's correct. In other versions, you need to MANAGE the
"Save changes to..." setting to ensure it's pointed at the correct template.
In Word 2008, that is done automatically for you.

And if I want that change in that style to also go to the Normal
Template, I would have to make the same change to it while in a doc
attached to Normal Template and Save to Template. Correct?

Or use Organiser to copy the change across.

Or maybe there is a shortcut for changing it in both places?

There isn't. In practice, this isn't an issue: if you have multiple
templates, that's usually because you want the styles to be different in
each.

Cheers

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Norm]

Or maybe there is a shortcut for changing it in both places?

There isn't. In practice, this isn't an issue: if you have multiple
templates, that's usually because you want the styles to be different in
each.[/QUOTE]

Thanks John.

Got it. All very helpful.

Norm