Does anyone need consulting help?

[Larry]

I notice a lot of non-programmers who have undertaken the
task of designing database-driven applications with Access
for seemingly important functions within their businesses
or companies.

My experience tells me that while you might be able to
design a functional application on your own without
programming experience, you'll likely run into problems
later on as it's functionality grows, number of users
increases, or network issues come into play.

If this concerns you and you would like to consider
professional consulting help with your database design,
please contact me to discuss our options. I would be very
interested in listening to your issues, giving some
advice, and possibly working with you on your Access
applications.

My email address is 'callmelaz @ patmedia.net' (no spaces).

Thank you,
Larry

 

[Cheryl Fischer]

Larry,

Given today's economy, all of us would like to generate more business in our
chosen fields. However, please read the info at the following link:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities/conduct/default.mspx#XSLTsection1241211
20120

 

[Mike]

If you're refering to this passage:

Advertising/Solicitation: These communities were created
as a forum for providing peer-to-peer assistance related
to using Microsoft products and services. We ask that you
refrain from posting unsolicited advertisements that do
not pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of
the newsgroup or chat.


I would say that his solicitation does pertain directly
to the intended use and purpose of the newsgroup. He is
soliciting Access consulting to an Access newgroup. I
certainly don't consider this spam - it's not like he's
trying to sell viagra.

 

[GVaught]

I'd consider changing your email name.... "Call Me Lazy"... may send the
wrong message to prospective clients.

 

[Van T. Dinh]

Mike

The original post sounds more like advertisement for
commercial consultancy service to me, not *peer-to-peer*
assitance. The implication of peer-to-peer assistance is
that the help is free of charge which is certainly not the
intention of the O.P.

IMHO, it is an unsolicited advertisement!

Van T. Dinh
MVP (Access)

 

[Mike]

If you don't want ANY unsolicited advertisements then I
think you should say

We ask that you refrain from posting ANY unsolicited
advertisements.

 

[Cheryl Fischer]

I am told that sometimes developers do get work as a result of their
participation in this and other newsgroups. Typically, however, this is the
result of regular and frequent responses to posted questions which are
technically correct, polite, demonstrate some recognition of the poster's
skill level and are offered without hint of solicitation of paid work. If
you have not already done so, spend a day or two browsing through postings
and you will see that most responses are offered only in the interest of
helping the original poster resolve the specific problem or question. Over
time someone who responds in this manner builds a "track record" and their
level of expertise will get noticed. Does this guarantee work for hire?
No, but it cannot hurt.

If you believe that you can make a contribution to any Microsoft newsgroup
by offering peer-to-peer support, that contribution will be more than
welcome!

 

[Larry]

I, like Mike, did read the link referenced by Cheryl
prior to posting my message. And, as Mike and the Rules
of Conduct quote, "We ask that you refrain from posting
unsolicited advertisements THAT DO NOT PERTAIN DIRECTLY
TO THE INTENDED USE AND PURPOSE OF THE NEWSGROUP OR CHAT."

As this is an Access newsgroup and I am offering help
with Access, what's the issue? I did not intend to cause
such an uproar, but I don't think I did anything wrong.
Thanks for the support, Mike!

And, just for the record, I do not represent a commercial
consultancy service by any means. I am a full time
programmer who tries to make an extra buck on the side by
assisting businesses with a skill in which I have
acquired some expertise.

For those of you who have emailed me with questions,
thank you for your interest! I hope I can help!

Larry

 

[Larry]

Cheryl,

I do frequently browse the newsgroups and have offered
assistance and advice to random questions that I feel I
can help with. However, I find that a good deal of the
professional responses that are posted to questions are
very technical and are far beyond the comprehension of
many of the beginning level developers who need
assistance, thus rendering those responses intimidating
and confusing.

A large part of being a valuable resource in these
newsgroups is to have the ability to communicate complex
and technical concepts to those in need of help who do
not understand those concepts yet. Since I don't see too
much of that being offered in here, I was simply
providing people with that service if they feel they need
it.

I was concerned about the 'solicitation' angle of my
post, but after reading the same link that you pointed
out I felt the wording of the Codes of Conduct would not
prohibit me from posting my message. If the intention of
the Codes of Conduct are to prohibit any solicitation
whatsoever then it should be reworded to say so.

 

[Van T. Dinh]

Mike

I don't work for Microsoft so it is not up to me to decide the wordings.
Besides, you ignored the fact that these newsgroups are intended for
*peer-to-peer* support and NOT commercial consultancy service.

Whether I want or don't want unsolicited advertisements is not important and
whether Microsoft has the word "ANY" in their Rules of Conduct is
immaterial. There will be people who will ignore these unenforceable rules
and post anyway. But ask yourself: what does the Microsoft request mean?
And as a civilized person, what should you do?

There are other alternatives / forums to advertised the services if the O.P.
has research enough.

 

[Van T. Dinh]

The intended use of these newsgroups are peer-to-peer support, i.e. free to
the user and voluntary by the helper.

I have children doing peer-to-peer support at school & can't remember a
single occasion that my children "discuss the options".

Are you claiming you are offering the service as peer-to-peer support?

There are other forums that you can offer your commercial service such as
www.Dice.com.

 

[Steve]

I, like Mike, did read the link referenced by Cheryl
prior to posting my message. And, as Mike and the Rules
of Conduct quote, "We ask that you refrain from posting
unsolicited advertisements THAT DO NOT PERTAIN DIRECTLY
TO THE INTENDED USE AND PURPOSE OF THE NEWSGROUP OR CHAT."

I'm an attorney, and I can tell you that what you did was unsolicited,
and an advertisement. Hopefully your programming skills are better than
your reading comprehension.

 

[Adam]

My dear Attorney,

The following reflects the wording of the rules (from
Mike).

"Advertising/Solicitation: These communities were created
as a forum for providing peer-to-peer assistance related
to using Microsoft products and services. We ask that you
refrain from posting unsolicited advertisements that do
not pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of
the newsgroup or chat."

The "intended use and purpose" are to provide "peer-to-
peer" assistance. Where does it say, monetary charges are
prohibited? That the transmission of asstance is free of
charges by way of monetary fees (or barter or other means
for that matter!)? Do you have some official definition of
what this term means?

Furthermore any 'reasonable man' would not expect to find
every bit of assistance on this or any other newsgroup to
be free. I myself would find some who will offer
assistance for a fee, as I have in the case of Larry's
offerings. In addition a 'reasonable man' would take this
to be an offering of assistance where freebies fail!

Furthermore the wordings... "We ask that you refrain" is
not a legally enforceable stand, and could amount to a
restraint of trade, and this could lead to further
litigation between Larry and Microsoft!!!

In conclusion, Larry did post unsolicited advertisment but
that advertisment DOES pertain to the intended use and
purpose of the newsgroup or group.

Your Honour...the Verdict is Not Guilty.

Adam

Getting Stronger and Wiser

-----Original Message-----

 

[Steve]

My dear Attorney,

The following reflects the wording of the rules (from
Mike).

My little grasshopper. "Peer to Peer" is not advertising a commercial
product or service. Again learn some comprehension, and use that grey
matter between your ears. You might also consider applying some common
sense.

 

[Paul Overway]

If you REALLY browsed through various prior posts, you'd be hard pressed to
find examples of solicitations such as yours. That should have been a big
clue as to what is the norm. If all of us did the same as you, this NG
would receive 100s of posts a day soliciting business and would be of little
or no value to users. Helping users with MS Access is the purpose of the
NG...it isn't a billboard for advertisements.

The vast majority of posts are QUESTIONS, and the majority of responses to
those questions ARE professional, and may be very technical, depending on
the topic. Often times, the responses provide exactly the information
requested by the user. Your post was not a question, nor was it
professional..especially your followup:

A large part of being a valuable resource in these
newsgroups is to have the ability to communicate complex
and technical concepts to those in need of help who do
not understand those concepts yet. Since I don't see too
much of that being offered in here, I was simply
providing people with that service if they feel they need
it.

That paragraph is pretty arrogant coming from someone that, AFAIK has never
responded to a user's question.

In any case, based on my browsing of the NG, I can say there are literally
dozens of people participating in this NG that are far more qualified than
you to assist others with MS Access. If they receive business, it is
because they have proven themselves knowledgeable and worthy of it.

 

[Tony Toews]

Advertising/Solicitation: These communities were created
as a forum for providing peer-to-peer assistance related
to using Microsoft products and services. We ask that you
refrain from posting unsolicited advertisements that do
not pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of
the newsgroup or chat.


I would say that his solicitation does pertain directly
to the intended use and purpose of the newsgroup. He is
soliciting Access consulting to an Access newgroup. I
certainly don't consider this spam - it's not like he's
trying to sell viagra.

That's always how I've interpreted that particular clause.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm

 

[Mike]

You'll be happy to know that this is my last reply to
this thread.

If you don't want people to solicit consulting services
here that is fine. I don't have an issue with that
request. What I had an issue with is that Cheryl implied
that he had broken a rule of conduct. If you read the
ENTIRE rule of conduct ( not just the peer to peer part )
it seems to leave the door open for directly related
solicitations. Cheryl's response was very polite but it
is irritating when someone acts like you broke a rule
when you didn't. In my perfect world, you guys would
rewrite that rule of conduct to exclude all
solicitations - consulting or otherwise. Of course that
won't stop everybody from doing it, but it will give you
a clearer rule to reference when you ask someone not to
post consulting services.

Peace and happiness to all

 

[Mike]

I can't believe an Attorney would translate

We ask that you refrain from posting unsolicited
advertisements that do not pertain directly to the
intended use and purpose of the newsgroup or chat."

Into not allowing unsolicited advertisement.

I'm glad you're not a judge

-----Original Message-----