Esoterica: Breaking nonspace?

A

A. Sparling

Hi folks,

Here's my problem. I don't want to turn on auto hyphenation, but Wor
is not even breaking already-hyphenated words at the ends of lines. I
there a way to get Word to do this by default? Failing that, how do
manually insert a breaking nonspace after the hyphens? I used to kno
this, but I have forgotten.

Best,

Andre
 
C

CyberTaz

Hi Andrew -

Is this a new doc, or are you editing a pre-existing one?

Regards |:>)
 
A

A. Sparling

Dear John,

Thanks, but the discretionary hyphen won't fit the bill. Here's th
problem. Suppose I have a loose line, and the first word on the nex
line is "ten-cent" (with a regular hyphen). Word seems to assume b
default that I don't want words to break, even when they are alread
hyphenated. Now, I don't want to ADD a whole bunch of hyphenation, bu
I would like to force "ten-" up to the previous line.

I can do this manually (assuming the line is loose enough) by deletin
the hyphen and inserting a cmd-hyphen (discretionary hyphen). But the
if the text reflows, my hyphen disappears, and my "ten-cent coupon" ha
become a "tencent coupon". But if I insert a cmd-hyphen before th
hyphen, then the word breaks but I have a hyphen both at the end of th
upper line ("ten-") and the beginning of the lower line ("-cent").

Instead, what I need to insert is a breaking nonspace. This is a
esoteric character of zero width that allows words to break. I hav
used it in the past, and I know it's "there," but I just don't kno
where "there" is
 
C

CyberTaz

Hello again -

The reason I asked about the vintage of the doc is that I have found that
Word's default behavior _is_ to break the line after the hyphen exactly as
you describe in your example... ten- on the one line, cent on the other. My
understanding is that this is what you want.

Is it possible the doc was created using Nonbreaking Hyphens (Cmd+Shift+-)?
What happens if you do a Find for ^~ and Replace with - ?

HTH |:>)
 
D

Daiya Mitchell

Instead, what I need to insert is a breaking nonspace. This is an
esoteric character of zero width that allows words to break. I have
used it in the past, and I know it's "there," but I just don't know
where "there" is.

Please note CyberTaz's comment that not everyone has the problem you see.
Generally preferable to fix the way your Word is behaving than do a manual
fix.

However, there's an FAQ for WinWord on inserting this. I haven't a clue how
to translate it to MacWord, but it gives the unicode, so it ought to. I also
haven't a clue whether the macros work on the Mac, and even if they do,
would test them on a COPY. See if that helps.

http://word.mvps.org/faqs/formatting/NoWidthSpace.htm
(hit reload a few times in Safari, or use a different browser)
 
A

A. Sparling

Dear John,

Curiouser and curiouser. Yes, my beloved Word 5.1A always broke a
hyphens, but in my experience Word 2004 does not. I took your last pos
and pasted it into Word and, as you suggested, replaced each space wit
a hyphen. Then I replaced the paragraph marks with hyphens for goo
measure. Then, in page layout view, I pasted the result. All the break
were in the middle of words and there was not one break at a hyphen!
In the following block of text I have added [LB] to show where each o
the line breaks showed up:

Word-always-breaks-at-a-normal-hyphen.--Are-you-SURE-the-char[LB]acters-on-that-page-are-not-non-breaking-hyphens?--Try-this:--Ma[LB]ke-a-copy-of-the-document-and-replace-every-space-with-a-hyphe[LB]n.--You-should-find-that-you-end-up-with-a-hyphen-at-the-end-of[LB]-every-line.--There-are-some-views-that-won't-wrap.--There-are-so[LB]me-justifications-that-won't-wrap.--Which-view-and-justification-a[LB]re-you-using?--Turn-on-Show/Hide:-check-for-paragraph-marks-o[LB]r-line-feeds-at-the-end-of-each-line?--Cheers--

This was in 12-pt. New York on a letter-sized page. When I went t
Normal view the display was the same. The text was justified, but i
made no difference whether I quadded it left, right, or centered it. I
I changed the text to Times, the breaks were in different places (as yo
would expect) but the phenomenon was unchanged. Again, not one landed a
a hyphen.

This is with tabs, spaces, para. marks, 'optional' hyphens, and hidde
text all showing; if I make all visible, it doesn't change things on
jot or tittle.

If I replace all the hyphens with nonbreaking hyphens, they loo
different on the screen, but they flow just the same way.

Andre
 
A

A. Sparling

Hmm, please see the reply I just posted to John, below. The document i
which I tested Word's behavior was a new document. My hyphens appear t
be behaving like nonbreaking hyphens. This is Word 11.2 (050714) unde
Tiger. I am using the US extended keyboard and the text is coded as U
English, although it makes no difference if I change it to Aussi o
British English (or German, for that matter).
 
C

CyberTaz

Hello Again -
From the description, I can't help but believe that the testing methods
are skewing the results. Copying & pasting (especially from Text/HTML)
into a doc automatically throws in variables that would ordinarily not
be there in a typed document. If you want an honest test of how Word
2004 behaves, start with a new blank doc, type a line of text and
hyphenate a word at the end of the line. I truly believe you will find
that it does exactly the same as your "beloved Word 5.1A"... otherwise
there is some issue with the software (preferences or a library,
perhaps) that needs to be addressed.

Also, I have never heard of a "breaking nonspace" in more than 15 years
of using WordStar, Word, WordPerfect, WordPro, PageMaker, QuarkXPress,
InDesign & FrameMaker (to name a few). Nonbreaking spaces, flush
spaces, hair spaces, punctuation spaces, em spaces, en spaces, thin
spaces, figure spaces, nonbreaking hyphens, discretionary hyphens, yes
- "breaking nonspaces", no. Nor can I conceive of _any_ condition where
I would want a word to be split into two parts at the end of a line
without being hyphenated. Aside from being a grotesque grammatical
error it would be abysmally problematic in terms of reading
comprehensibility.

I readily admit that I by no means know everything, so if you are able
to recall more about this I would sincerely like to know about it. [A
day without learning is a day wasted!]

Regards |:>)
 
A

A. Sparling

OK, fair enough--I did as you suggested, typing the following into
fresh document:

Moreover, when I, affected with admiration, said to him; My Master,
pray tell me, where had you this greatest Scinece of the whole World
He answered, I received such Magnalia from the Communication of
certain Extraneous Friend, who for cer-tain dayes lodged in my House
professing, that he was a Lover of Art, and came to teach me variou
Arts; viz. how, besides the aforesaid, of stones, and Crystal, mos
beautiful precious Stones are made much more fair than Rubies
Chrysolites, Saphires, and others of that kind. Also how to prepare
Crocus Martis ...

The word "certain" was at the beginning of a line. When I inserted a
optional hyphen, "cer-" went to the previous line. But with a hyphen
it all stayed on the lower line, as before.

I discovered Word's breaking zero-width space when corresponding with
Microsoft support person about a contrary problem, namely, when
inserted overstrike characters into words using field codes, Word wa
breaking the words after the field codes. So, for instance, if I type
q-acute in a word as an overstrike (I had to do this, since q-acute i
not a Unicode character), Word would break the word after the q-acut
at the end of the line. Which was, as you rightly observe
typographically abysmal. The solution was to insert the NONbreakin
nonspace, a Word character that had to be imported from the Window
version, into each of my automated overstrike shortcuts.

The most obvious application of the BREAKING nonspace (or zero-widt
space) is to break up URLs so they run over multiple lines, even i
they have no spaces in them. Admittedly, if my hyphens were workin
correctly, I wouldn't have as much use for them.


Hello Again -
From the description, I can't help but believe that the testin
methods
are skewing the results. Copying & pasting (especially from Text/HTML)
into a doc automatically throws in variables that would ordinarily not
be there in a typed document. If you want an honest test of how Word
2004 behaves, start with a new blank doc, type a line of text and
hyphenate a word at the end of the line. I truly believe you will find
that it does exactly the same as your "beloved Word 5.1A"... otherwise
there is some issue with the software (preferences or a library,
perhaps) that needs to be addressed.

Also, I have never heard of a "breaking nonspace" in more than 1
years
of using WordStar, Word, WordPerfect, WordPro, PageMaker, QuarkXPress,
InDesign & FrameMaker (to name a few). Nonbreaking spaces, flush
spaces, hair spaces, punctuation spaces, em spaces, en spaces, thin
spaces, figure spaces, nonbreaking hyphens, discretionary hyphens, yes
- "breaking nonspaces", no. Nor can I conceive of _any_ conditio
where
I would want a word to be split into two parts at the end of a line
without being hyphenated. Aside from being a grotesque grammatical
error it would be abysmally problematic in terms of reading
comprehensibility.

I readily admit that I by no means know everything, so if you are able
to recall more about this I would sincerely like to know about it. [A
day without learning is a day wasted!]

Regards |:>
 
C

CyberTaz

Ahah! Thanks for getting back... it now appears you're referring to
Word's notorious (and somewhat unique) Siamese Twins - "No-Width Non
Break" & "No-Width Optional Break", and your explanation of the
'extenuating circumstances' justifying the need for such contrivances
certainly makes it a much clearer picture. Perhaps I just don't
underestand how to use them correctly, but I have always steered clear
of them as a) in my experience, they invariably screw up the character
spacing at the end of the line & b) I generally do work requiring
highly accurate typesetting control in a DTP app.

Again, you reply is much appreciated!

Regards |:>)
 
B

Beth Rosengard

Hi Andrew,

I just tried the same thing with the same text. Only difference was I used
Arial 12 pt. My result was exactly as John predicted: I had a hyphen at
the end of each line.

I'm wondering if perhaps you have a corrupt Normal template. To test this,
quit Word, rename Normal to something else, and relaunch Word. Any
difference?

If this fixes it and you have a highly customized Normal, you can transfer
over most customizations using the Organizer. See here:
<http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/MacWordNormal.htm>
(If using Safari, hit Refresh once or twice; better yet, use another browser
for this site.)

--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***

Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP

Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/index.htm>
(If using Safari, hit Refresh once or twice ­ or use another browser.)
Entourage Help Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org>
 
J

John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]

I'm Struggling on this one too... I don't think it's his Normal template,
but I can't think of a Pref that would do this either...

Yes, I can... "Compatibility Options".

Andrew: Go to Preferences>Compatibility and ensure:
1) Recommended Options for: is set to the latest version you have (Word
2004)

2) EVERYTHING in the Options box below that is turned OFF

If that doesn't fix your problem, please email me a sample document. You
will need to paste in a one-time password in the SUBJECT line of your email
to get through my Spam and Virus filters. Yours is: "C01B7D5E.28246"

Cheers


Hi Andrew,

I just tried the same thing with the same text. Only difference was I used
Arial 12 pt. My result was exactly as John predicted: I had a hyphen at
the end of each line.

I'm wondering if perhaps you have a corrupt Normal template. To test this,
quit Word, rename Normal to something else, and relaunch Word. Any
difference?

If this fixes it and you have a highly customized Normal, you can transfer
over most customizations using the Organizer. See here:
<http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/MacWordNormal.htm>
(If using Safari, hit Refresh once or twice; better yet, use another browser
for this site.)

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410
 

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