Estimated dates

[Evil Overlord]

I have a project with a fixed end date. Within that, I have a number of
components and sub-components, many of which only have estimated dates (e.g.,
third quarter).

What is the best way to schedule these?
Type of task - fixed unit, fixed duration, ...
Constraint - start ASAP, finish no later than. ...

I used the Project defaults initially, entering both start and end dates for
tasks (e.g., 3d quarter is 1 July to 30 September). However, I find that
Project adjusts dates in mysterious ways. For example, if I add a sub-task
(even one with no info at all), the finish date for the entire project shifts
by several months, throwing all of the dates into chaos. Project also claims
links to distant, completely unrelated tasks in other components (to which
there is absolutely no evident link.)

I assume that this is happening because of my ignorance of constraint use.
Help!

All I want is for my dates to stay relatively fixed. So, if task B is
dependent on Task A, and I shift the end date of Task A, the start date of B
could change, but the end date should stay where I set it.

 

[DavidC]

Hi,

First thing that I noted in your question was that you add tasks and that
seems to have an illogical effect on the end dates. Under
Tools/Options/schedule, there is a check box "Autolink inserted or moved
tasks". By default this is selected and project then adds links in between
tasks simply because they are adjacent to one another. Unselect this and
then check and create the logic manually.

Second if you have set a start date for a summary task, then any tasks under
that summary will not start until the date set rather than "as Soon as
possible".

When setting up a schedule it is best to set constraint dates (No earlier
than or No later than etc) only for those tasks such as start of the project
(which is generally set under the project properties) or for milestone
information type tasks, or where a task simply cannot be started or finished
because of some outside influence. Generally though tasks should be set to
start "As soon as possible" then allow project to calculate start and finish
dates based on the schedule logic and task durations. You commented that you
want some tasks to be finsihed by a specific date. Set this date as a
milestone date and then have the tasks leading up to the end as predecessors
to the milestone date. This milestone can then be set as "Finish no later
than" and set the deadline for the same date. Any tasks that extend the date
past your end date will then create negative float (slack) in the "Total
Slack" column and you can then revise/amend the task durations to ensure that
the project can be accomplished within the time frame you set. The thing is
to allow Project to set dates automatically based on logic and then change
durations and/or lags so that all the tasks in the project allow the project
to be completed within the timeframe.

Hope this helps


Regards

DavidC

 

[Evil Overlord]

David,

Many thanks for the thoughtful response. It's certainly interesting, and
I'm trying to follow your advice.

1. I did follow your advice on unchecking 'autolinking'. Unfortunately, the
same thing happened. My new task (for which I inserted only the name 'test
had a Project-inserted duration of only 1 day, which was well within the task
above it. However, when I demoted 'test' (to be subordinate to the task
above), the ENTIRE project end date shifted by several months. 'Test', as
far as I see, has NO predecessors or successors.

2. For the remainder, one drawback is that I'm taking a workplan that is
essentially just an Excel/Word document that has certain activities marked
out by quarter. My first step is to translate this to project, by (as noted
below) just assigning tasks to a particular quarter. Some tasks have clear
predecessors, and I've linked those. Others don't - they're just 'floating'.
Note that I'm not (yet) making use of the resources feature of project - I'm
just trying for an accurate schedule that can shift dates of entire
components if necessary, and takes into shifts in predecessor dates.

So, while I can let Project calculate dates, it doesn't necessarily have
much to go on. What I can tell it is that I expect X activity of two week
duration to happen during Quarter 4, 2007. I don't want X suddenly ending
up in 2008, which is what's been happening. I'm trying your milestone
approach, but it looks like I don't have it all worked out yet.

Ben

 

[DavidC]

Hi,

My gut feel from what you describe is that there is some link (other than
the expected relationship) between a task and it's summary task.

When you demoted "test' to be a task under the summary task, did the start
date change? Did the finish date of the summary task change?

Have you still got some constraint dates? try making everything "As soon as
possible" and see if there is any difference.

Any tasks then that have no defined satrt date because they "can float" then
again using the "Start As soon as possible" will simply have a large number
of tasks all starting on the project start date. As the project progresses,
thenyou simply update the progress %ge against the task and then "reschedule"
the tasks so that the remaining incompleted portions of the task then start
as at the current date or status date depending on what setting you have used
under "Tools/Options/Calendar" Here you need to select the first four boxes
under 'calculation options'. You will also need to set the status date under
"Proeject/Project information".

finally if you would lie to send me what you have I will be happy to take a
look at it. Proviso is that it is night now, and tomorrow I will be tied up
but could look at it later in the day and get back to you. If you want to so
this send to dcoatesatihugdotcodotnz

Regards

DavidC

 

[Steve House]

You are missing a basic point here, and that is that the start and end dates
of tasks are the OUTPUT of Project, not a user INPUT. You don't tell it the
schedule of your project, it tells you. In act you actually can't directly
enter task start and end dates, though it appears that you can because
Project does allow you to type dates into the Start and Finish columns. But
when you do, what you are really doing is setting either a Start No Earlier
Than or a Finish No Earlier Than constraint date (bet you have a little
calendar icon in the far-left Indicator column beside just about every task,
right?). Now sometimes such a constraint is a valid part of the project
model - parts are on back order until the 15th of October so the task that
uses them can't be scheduled before that date even if everything else
required for the task is in place, for example. But with those exceptions,
ideally you should be inputting one and only one date into Project - the
project's start or kick-off date - and from that one date plus the task
linkages and estimated durations Project will calculate everything else.

You propose an example of tasks A and B with A's finish linked to B's start
and when A's finish changes you want B' start to change but not its finish.
But looking at the real world how could it actually work like that? A
task's duration is NOT the "window of opportunity" during which the task
needs to be done. A task's duration is the length of time you would observe
physical activity on taking place and always represents a specific, finite
length of time. Thus a task requiring one day's work that could start
tomorrow and isn't required to be done until the 15th of September IS NOT a
3 week duration task. It is a one day duration task with a completion
deadline of 15 Sept. Lets say task B is to shave 100 monkeys and we
estimate it will take one week to do it - its duration is the length of time
it takes someone to shave 100 monkeys, no more and no less. If it starts on
Monday the 27th, it ends Friday the 31st. IF it starts Monday the 3rd, it
ends Friday the 7th. If it starts Monday the 10th, it ends Friday the 17th.
And so forth and so forth - it really can't be any other way. That is what
Project is telling you by changing the end dates.

Remember Project's job is to tell you what the schedule is that you should
be planning for your resources to work. It is NOT to merely to create a
fancy chart illustrating a schedule you have somehow already created or
merely to document a list of your deadlines. The tip-off that you're
putting the cart before the horse is the way you have used the term
"estimated dates." You say you're inputting a task whose schedule you only
know will be sometime in the 3rd quarter. In point of fact you don't even
know that - you only sort of think it might be doable in the 3rd quarter.
That's fine, it's not your job to tell Project when any of the tasks ought
to happen anyway. As soon as you input the task and set its required
duration, links, and resource assignments Project will calculate the dates
it can happen and it's no longer an "estimated date," as you have used the
term, because Project has now told you when you ought to be scheduling it.

Hope this helps

 

[Evil Overlord]

Steve,

Thanks. Perhaps Project is simply the wrong tool for what I'm trying to
accomplish. I have a set schedule that I need to stick to based on outside
constraints. I also have a highly variable level of resources. And finally,
I can in fact think of tasks that could have a flexible duration - that could
reasonably expand or contract to fit the time available.

Because I am not simply entering tasks, resources, and task costs that
Project could use to calculate dates for me, perhaps I'm approaching this the
wrong way. Project meets some of my needs, but not all. It may be that I
should be using something else. However, I have managed to make Project work
for me reasonably well, using a combination of 'Must start on' and 'Finish no
earlier than' constraints.

It may not be what's intended, but then Project's designers don't seem to
have had my kind of project in mind.

Ben

You are missing a basic point here, and that is that the start and end dates
of tasks are the OUTPUT of Project, not a user INPUT. You don't tell it the
schedule of your project, it tells you. In act you actually can't directly
enter task start and end dates, though it appears that you can because
Project does allow you to type dates into the Start and Finish columns. But
when you do, what you are really doing is setting either a Start No Earlier
Than or a Finish No Earlier Than constraint date (bet you have a little
calendar icon in the far-left Indicator column beside just about every task,
right?). Now sometimes such a constraint is a valid part of the project
model - parts are on back order until the 15th of October so the task that
uses them can't be scheduled before that date even if everything else
required for the task is in place, for example. But with those exceptions,
ideally you should be inputting one and only one date into Project - the
project's start or kick-off date - and from that one date plus the task
linkages and estimated durations Project will calculate everything else.

You propose an example of tasks A and B with A's finish linked to B's start
and when A's finish changes you want B' start to change but not its finish.
But looking at the real world how could it actually work like that? A
task's duration is NOT the "window of opportunity" during which the task
needs to be done. A task's duration is the length of time you would observe
physical activity on taking place and always represents a specific, finite
length of time. Thus a task requiring one day's work that could start
tomorrow and isn't required to be done until the 15th of September IS NOT a
3 week duration task. It is a one day duration task with a completion
deadline of 15 Sept. Lets say task B is to shave 100 monkeys and we
estimate it will take one week to do it - its duration is the length of time
it takes someone to shave 100 monkeys, no more and no less. If it starts on
Monday the 27th, it ends Friday the 31st. IF it starts Monday the 3rd, it
ends Friday the 7th. If it starts Monday the 10th, it ends Friday the 17th.
And so forth and so forth - it really can't be any other way. That is what
Project is telling you by changing the end dates.

Remember Project's job is to tell you what the schedule is that you should
be planning for your resources to work. It is NOT to merely to create a
fancy chart illustrating a schedule you have somehow already created or
merely to document a list of your deadlines. The tip-off that you're
putting the cart before the horse is the way you have used the term
"estimated dates." You say you're inputting a task whose schedule you only
know will be sometime in the 3rd quarter. In point of fact you don't even
know that - you only sort of think it might be doable in the 3rd quarter.
That's fine, it's not your job to tell Project when any of the tasks ought
to happen anyway. As soon as you input the task and set its required
duration, links, and resource assignments Project will calculate the dates
it can happen and it's no longer an "estimated date," as you have used the
term, because Project has now told you when you ought to be scheduling it.

Hope this helps


--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

I have a project with a fixed end date. Within that, I have a number of
components and sub-components, many of which only have estimated dates
(e.g.,
third quarter).

What is the best way to schedule these?
Type of task - fixed unit, fixed duration, ...
Constraint - start ASAP, finish no later than. ...

I used the Project defaults initially, entering both start and end dates
for
tasks (e.g., 3d quarter is 1 July to 30 September). However, I find that
Project adjusts dates in mysterious ways. For example, if I add a
sub-task
(even one with no info at all), the finish date for the entire project
shifts
by several months, throwing all of the dates into chaos. Project also
claims
links to distant, completely unrelated tasks in other components (to which
there is absolutely no evident link.)

I assume that this is happening because of my ignorance of constraint use.
Help!

All I want is for my dates to stay relatively fixed. So, if task B is
dependent on Task A, and I shift the end date of Task A, the start date of
B
could change, but the end date should stay where I set it.

 

[Steve House]

Sorry for the long delay in responding. Actually IMHO it's precisely your
sort of project where MS Project is best able to help. You have specific
dates you MUST hit and don't have any choice in the matter. Now your
problem is figure out exactly HOW to achieve those objectives - what
workflow organization and what sorts of resources and how many to assign
where will be required in order for it to be possible for these tasks to
take place where they must take place in order for your project to be
successful. To accomplish that, use Project as a "what if" tool,
experimenting with various workflow structures and resource assignments
until you find the one that will cause the calculated dates to align with
the required dates.

Here's a trivial case ... I have three tasks A, B, and C. A requires 40
manhours of work, B and C each require 40. Usually you don't have a lot of
option with the amount of work a task will require - tasks are physical
processes that always produce a specific, finite, amount of deliverable and
that generally means that the amount of work they require is locked in
granite - a painter uses a sprayer that lays down 10 square feet of paint an
hour and you have 400 square feet to paint - it's going to require 40
manhours to do that task and there's nothing you can do about it unless you
can get a different sprayer and that's not often an option. You can't stop
painting at 300 because you're running out of time. You won't paint more
than 400 because that's wasted effort, increasing cost by producing
unecessary deliverable. Now the physical nature of the process in this
project is that A produces something that is required by B and B in turn
produces something that is required by C. So that means that A->B->C link
in sequence with FS links. We can start Monday the 17th and our contract
requires we deliver the finished project no later than the 1st of October.
If you plug those tasks into Project and assign one resource to each you'll
find it calculates that you'll finish on the 5th, missing the deadline. So
what do I do about it? Well, if the work for task 1 is painting 400 square
feet, I can't change that BUT if I can find a second painter and put him on
the task it'll get done in 2.5 days instead of 5 and our new finish date is
Oct 3. And even though we have to do A in order for B to start, maybe we
don't have to be 100% complete on A to kick off B, we can overlap them by a
day with a lead time so we try that and see what it does to our finish ...
improves it by another day. And maybe we could get our resource on C to do
some overtime so we finish it in 3 days instead of 5 and now our calculated
finish date aligns with our required finish date and we're ready to show the
plan to the boss. See, the idea is that to hit the dates you need to hit,
you have to do something concrete in terms of real managment tactical
decisions that have real physical consequences in terms of task workflow and
durations - you can't just declare that things will happen in a certain way
and expect the universe to humour you - you have to identify the driving
factors that you CAN control and see what each option will do for you.
Project planning software provides you with a predictive model that allows
you to experiment with different possible tactical decisions and predicts
the results of each option for you so you can eventually pick the one that
works best to meet your project's requirements.

HTH

--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

Steve,

Thanks. Perhaps Project is simply the wrong tool for what I'm trying to
accomplish. I have a set schedule that I need to stick to based on
outside
constraints. I also have a highly variable level of resources. And
finally,
I can in fact think of tasks that could have a flexible duration - that
could
reasonably expand or contract to fit the time available.

Because I am not simply entering tasks, resources, and task costs that
Project could use to calculate dates for me, perhaps I'm approaching this
the
wrong way. Project meets some of my needs, but not all. It may be that I
should be using something else. However, I have managed to make Project
work
for me reasonably well, using a combination of 'Must start on' and 'Finish
no
earlier than' constraints.

It may not be what's intended, but then Project's designers don't seem to
have had my kind of project in mind.

Ben

You are missing a basic point here, and that is that the start and end
dates
of tasks are the OUTPUT of Project, not a user INPUT. You don't tell it
the
schedule of your project, it tells you. In act you actually can't
directly
enter task start and end dates, though it appears that you can because
Project does allow you to type dates into the Start and Finish columns.
But
when you do, what you are really doing is setting either a Start No
Earlier
Than or a Finish No Earlier Than constraint date (bet you have a little
calendar icon in the far-left Indicator column beside just about every
task,
right?). Now sometimes such a constraint is a valid part of the project
model - parts are on back order until the 15th of October so the task
that
uses them can't be scheduled before that date even if everything else
required for the task is in place, for example. But with those
exceptions,
ideally you should be inputting one and only one date into Project - the
project's start or kick-off date - and from that one date plus the task
linkages and estimated durations Project will calculate everything else.

You propose an example of tasks A and B with A's finish linked to B's
start
and when A's finish changes you want B' start to change but not its
finish.
But looking at the real world how could it actually work like that? A
task's duration is NOT the "window of opportunity" during which the task
needs to be done. A task's duration is the length of time you would
observe
physical activity on taking place and always represents a specific,
finite
length of time. Thus a task requiring one day's work that could start
tomorrow and isn't required to be done until the 15th of September IS NOT
a
3 week duration task. It is a one day duration task with a completion
deadline of 15 Sept. Lets say task B is to shave 100 monkeys and we
estimate it will take one week to do it - its duration is the length of
time
it takes someone to shave 100 monkeys, no more and no less. If it starts
on
Monday the 27th, it ends Friday the 31st. IF it starts Monday the 3rd,
it
ends Friday the 7th. If it starts Monday the 10th, it ends Friday the
17th.
And so forth and so forth - it really can't be any other way. That is
what
Project is telling you by changing the end dates.

Remember Project's job is to tell you what the schedule is that you
should
be planning for your resources to work. It is NOT to merely to create a
fancy chart illustrating a schedule you have somehow already created or
merely to document a list of your deadlines. The tip-off that you're
putting the cart before the horse is the way you have used the term
"estimated dates." You say you're inputting a task whose schedule you
only
know will be sometime in the 3rd quarter. In point of fact you don't
even
know that - you only sort of think it might be doable in the 3rd quarter.
That's fine, it's not your job to tell Project when any of the tasks
ought
to happen anyway. As soon as you input the task and set its required
duration, links, and resource assignments Project will calculate the
dates
it can happen and it's no longer an "estimated date," as you have used
the
term, because Project has now told you when you ought to be scheduling
it.

Hope this helps


--
Steve House [Project MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs


message

I have a project with a fixed end date. Within that, I have a number of
components and sub-components, many of which only have estimated dates
(e.g.,
third quarter).

What is the best way to schedule these?
Type of task - fixed unit, fixed duration, ...
Constraint - start ASAP, finish no later than. ...

I used the Project defaults initially, entering both start and end
dates
for
tasks (e.g., 3d quarter is 1 July to 30 September). However, I find
that
Project adjusts dates in mysterious ways. For example, if I add a
sub-task
(even one with no info at all), the finish date for the entire project
shifts
by several months, throwing all of the dates into chaos. Project also
claims
links to distant, completely unrelated tasks in other components (to
which
there is absolutely no evident link.)

I assume that this is happening because of my ignorance of constraint
use.
Help!

All I want is for my dates to stay relatively fixed. So, if task B is
dependent on Task A, and I shift the end date of Task A, the start date
of
B
could change, but the end date should stay where I set it.