Food for thought

[Robbie Gromson]

This is a talking point for the regulars of this forum. I mean no harm and
most of my points are purely observational. But it would be interesting to
see what others think.

1. Do you ever despair of the simple errors you're asked to "help
now/urgent/please please please" with?
In the 5 months I've been reading this group, I've seen people faltering
with Access through stupid errors in spelling (and all over again in their
pleas for help). I've see people faltering due to complete absence of
logical thinking. I've seen people come unstuck with basic numeracy and
literacy. Surely there must come a time when people's patience is exhausted
and somebody says "look, I don't think you've got the necessary skills to
complete this"...or are people just too polite and eager to help?

2. Do you think that there are people who bullshit-promise their bosses they
can deliver some miracle system based on Access, but who, seriously, ought
not to be let out of the house on a morning? And who get rather shirty when
told to do their research properly?

3. Do you think there are people who'd frankly rather not read the ample
microsoft data on Access and who think that various members of this group
will just do the thinking for them as a lazy shortcut?

I'm interested to hear what others think.

Rob

 

[Albert D. Kallal]

comments between your notes follow:


Ms-access is very strange product. While ms-access is part of office just
like Excel or Word, it is the most complex product of the office suite.

However, it is NOT the complexity of ms-access that is the problem here. In
fact, Excel is just as hard to learn. You can spend years learning
Excel..and still not know the product fully. The problem is that database
management is a skill that takes MORE TIME then the rest of the office
products.

So, it is the data design skills that holds people back. There is little
difficulty in building a form with some text boxes. Even a new user can in
less then one hour can start putting textboxes on a form. That process is
quite easy.

The whole new big world of database management is the real issue.

Ms-access holds the promise of some data management system for many small
business. The problem is that many people just assume that ms-access is like
the rest of the office suite. Ms-access is much more then word, or Excel.
The great promise of information management systems is very seductive thing.
In fact, it is much more seductive then a beautiful woman to many!

So, the real lesson here is:

database management skills take some time.

1. Do you ever despair of the simple errors you're asked to "help
now/urgent/please please please" with?

No, I don't tire. However, I kind of smile in a funny way that some think
that the 'URGENT' will some how speed things up. I mean, if I only log on
twice a day, then that is all the time I have. Further, if I can't answer
the question..I skip it. If can answer the question (or the question is
clear and short and easy to read)..then I will. I want to be clear here, I
am not "smiling" at the fact that some person is up late and is VERY
frustrated. I am smiling, since there is absolutely nothing I can do to
speed things up. So, I simply kind of smile and think..darn...sorry...there
is no speeding up of newsgroups!. My smile is due to me realizing the poster
does not understand how newsgroups work. Newsgroups function at a particular
speed, and "urgent" does not change that speed. Even if I wished other wise.
When I see "URGENT" I think of the submarine commander going DIVE DIVE
DIVE..and all the alarms going aaawhoooga....aawhooaga.....EMERGENCY DIVE!

But I can't change the speed of things! (now you see why I smile!).

In the 5 months I've been reading this group, I've seen people faltering
with Access through stupid errors in spelling (and all over again in their
pleas for help). I've see people faltering due to complete absence of
logical thinking. I've seen people come unstuck with basic numeracy and
literacy. Surely there must come a time when people's patience is exhausted
and somebody says "look, I don't think you've got the necessary skills to
complete this"...or are people just too polite and eager to help?

I hate to say, but there have been a few times when some people clearly are
going down the wrong path. A part of me says take out the hammer and really
give the person a earful. I mean, if you are painting a wall, and making a
larger mess then the value of your time and work...then it can come to a
point where you are actually doing the person a favour by telling them to
stop. However, I seem some frustrated and absolute angry people over time
actually change, learn ms-access, and even then start to participate in this
newsgroup. And, if the person gets too frustrated to come back, then so be
it. However, there is that fine line.

I have learned that being nice, and not chewing the person out is the way to
go (however, like everyone else...we have bad days...and sometime we really
rack a poster over the coals. There is no excuse for me to really give it to
the poster...but it does happen). We are all human, and this newsgrups stuff
is simply the process of life. As long as the person is making a true
effort, and has a true eagerness to learn, then I will help that person
(even against my better judgment). This is public place, and all I can do is
put my best foot forward...

2. Do you think that there are people who bullshit-promise their bosses they
can deliver some miracle system based on Access

Yup...every system in ms-access is supposed to be miracle system! You got
that one right!

3. Do you think there are people who'd frankly rather not read the ample
microsoft data on Access and who think that various members of this group
will just do the thinking for them as a lazy shortcut?

Sure. However, if I plant a tree and the next door neighbour is lazy and
gets some nice shade...so be it. There is community here that wants to
learn, and would bet that even the lazy ones will find this group inspiring
as much as I do...


Sincerely,
Albert D. Kallal (MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
(e-mail address removed)
http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn

 

[Diane Jamail]

I was glad to read your posting... I've been wondering
some of the same things. I've wondered if alot of the
people posting requests on this website are actually the
admins that have been put in charge to track the data and
now they are trying to design a database to track it with.
It seems they never considered book keepers aren't also
expected to design book keeping software that designing
applications is a job for professional application
developers. I have to say that Microsoft is deceivingly
easy at first and people seem to think it can't be that
much harder than learning Word, Excel and Powerpoint, you
know it is part of Microsoft Office.

Any suggestions on how we can get some of the people
posting on this website to actually contract an
experienced professional? It looks like alot of their
problems could be solved remotely if they e-mailed their
application to a person who has the apptitude and has put
in the time to learn the language.

Diane
Houston, Texas

 

[Allen Browne]

Hi Robbie.

An on-line community is made up of people, so yes, you get all kinds. You
choose the messages you reply to. I'm less likely to answer one without a
good subject line, and "Help! Urgent!" doesn't qualify.

Likewise, the expectation that we will do the work for someone is unlikely
to be met. It doesn't take long before those people give up in frustration,
or settle down to learn Access properly. Of course there's always more of
the same, but you choose to ignore them until they are willing to learn.

Those of us who continue to post answers over the years enjoy helping people
learn--empowering people to do things they could not do before. The
newsgroups are a great way of solving an issue when you're stuck, sharing
solutions and tips, learning about bugs and traps to avoid, and developing
an understanding of what conceptual and practical hurdles users commonly
face as they learn Access.

 

[chas]

-----Original Message-----

Snipped>

Hi guys,

I'm not exactly a regular of the forum (although I've
started to be) so please accept my comments in the spirit
they are given

I've been giving telephone support to users of Microsoft
Access here in the UK since 1995 and see the same kinds of
question in that medium as are seen in the newsgroups. A
large proportion of new Access developers work for small
to medium Companies and I find that if someone in their
Office shows a degree of IT literacy their
boss 'volunteers' them to write an Access database
because "it can't be that hard surely". A favourite off-
call sign of frustration has been mutterings of RTFM.

I agree that there is a wealth of information out there
about Access but if you don't know where/how to look for
it you're not going to find it. Hence the newsgroups and
a wonderfull job everyone here does as well.

Some people do expect something for nothing and those that
email me directly as a result of postings in the ng I try
to direct back to the ng in order to share the knowledge.
I agree that an URGENT posting does tend to be ignored but
to the poster the problem may well be urgent (their jobs
may be on the line) but there is no substitute for a
polite request.

Hope I've not gone too far off topic or otherwise offended.

chas

 

[Arvin Meyer]

Any suggestions on how we can get some of the people
posting on this website to actually contract an
experienced professional? It looks like alot of their
problems could be solved remotely if they e-mailed their
application to a person who has the apptitude and has put
in the time to learn the language.

That's not the purpose of the newsgroups, nor those of us that give our time
here. I've been an MVP for 3 years and have been on the UseNet groups for
almost 8 years. We are here to help people with their problems. We
discourage emailing personal requests for help because a much wider audience
is achieved by answering here. I still get as many as 30 emails a day asking
questions which can be easily answered here. There is no time for free
private help, and most of the questions are easily answered.

No, we cannot totally redesign a database in this format, but most of the
people that come here are not looking for that. They want an answer to a
specific problem. Yes, we do get those who ask so many questions that it is
evident that we are designing the database. Many, if not most, of those are
not lazy, but truly need help and haven't a clue on where to start.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access downloads:
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access

 

[Robbie Gromson]

Thanks chaps. Some interesting views.

I've been participating in newsgroups for about 6 years now and,
personally, I'm always happy to help if I know the answer. Sometimes,
if it's something I'm interested in myself, I might go away and have a
play at it and then come back and report.

I have noticed a tendency though for a small number of people to ask
before they look to see if the topic has been covered already. I have
to say that the titles of each thread usually encapsulate the content
and it's realtively simple to pick out the ones you're interested in.
I've asked a few questions myself in my time and had some helpful tips
and answers. Interestingly, I've learned a whole lot more just by
reading these groups regularly and absorbing stuff by osmosis (or
bookmarking it <grin>).

As far as Access is concerned, my specific interest is in DAPs and
ways of making them more productive than Access creates them. It's
taken me into the realms of bizarre mathematics (rusty braincells) and
convoluted work-arounds to achieve what I want, but I've always found
the answers to a sticking point on these groups. For those that are
interested in DAPs (won't be that many, because let's face it, they're
a right old dog's breakfast aspect of Access), I've pulled together
nearly every help article I could find at
http://groups.msn.com/dataaccesspages .It serves more or less as my
own reference library, but anybody's welcome. I just despair a bit
when people almost demand the answer to something, and come across a
bit shitty when you take issue with their tone.

Oh well.
One day I might get into ASP and .NET, but like somebody said earlier,
a little bit at a time. After 5 years of prolific Excel use, I'm only
feeling like I'm getting a handle on it now. One day my Access skills
might be on a par.

Rob

 

[Tony Toews]

I have noticed a tendency though for a small number of people to ask
before they look to see if the topic has been covered already.

I don't look at peoples names when I reply usually so I don't even
notice that.

I have
to say that the titles of each thread usually encapsulate the content
and it's realtively simple to pick out the ones you're interested in.

I only look at the interesting questions. The easy ones are too
boring.

I've asked a few questions myself in my time and had some helpful tips
and answers. Interestingly, I've learned a whole lot more just by
reading these groups regularly and absorbing stuff by osmosis (or
bookmarking it <grin>).

That's exactly how I started out in these newsgroups, or cdma back in
'95 or so.

As far as Access is concerned, my specific interest is in DAPs and
http://groups.msn.com/dataaccesspages .It serves more or less as my
own reference library, but anybody's welcome.

I'll add that link to my website RSN (Real Soon Now. <smile>)

Thanks, Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm