Formatting changed when converted in Word 2007

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Hello,

I have a slight problem with formatting in a document. The document
was originally created in Word 2003.

One paragraph has a style with Verdana 8,5 pt and font color 80% grey.
The style is based on Normal style. Direct formatting (Times New
Roman, 11 pt) has been applied to the paragraph.

When the document is viewed in Word 2003 there are no problems, and
the same when it's viewed in Word 2007 compatibility mode. If the
document is saved as docx from Word 2003 and opened, converted and
saved in 2007, still no problems.

But: When the document is opened as doc in Word 2007, converted and
saved as docx, the document seems fine until it is closed and reopened
in Word 2007 or 2003. Then the paragraph has 10,5pt character spacing
applied!

I have also tested by using the format painter: open the original
document in Word 2003, select the paragraph, click the format painter,
switch to Word 2007 and click and drag over any text. The same thing
happens (character spacing is applied).

I have used reveal formatting in both 2003 and 2007 and there is
nothing indicating any character spacing. I have also checked the
normal style and the style used in the paragraph. This has been tested
on three different machines, on both Vista and XP with all service
packs and updates.

Any suggestions at all about why this is happening? I know how to
solve it on a document to document basis but I'm trying to figure out
the underlying problem here.

 

[PamC]

Modify your Normal style so the space between paragraphs is 0 (or whatever
you want) and the line spacing is single (instead of 1.15).

I suspect that as long as the file is in compatibility mode, the old
Normal.dot is attached, but that when it is converted to Word2007,
Normal.dotm or dotx is attached and that, on first close or open, the
template styles are updated. They probably need to do that to enable
features such as themes, which work only with certain font designations
(such as +Body for text ).

The default line spacing in Normal.dotm or x is looser that that in
Normal.dot. I don't like the new settings, so I've changed normal.dotm and
the default settings to what I want. I change settings in templates and
documents that I create for clients.

Maddening problem, easy fix, I think. BTW, here's the MS Office Team's
blog on the subject:

http://blogs.msdn.com/microsoft_off...t-does-single-spacing-really-mean-anyway.aspx

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Modify your Normal style so the space between paragraphs is 0 (or whatever
you want) and the line spacing is single (instead of 1.15).

I suspect that as long as the file is in compatibility mode, the old
Normal.dot is attached, but that when it is converted to Word2007,
Normal.dotm or dotx is attached and that, on first close or open, the
template styles are updated. They probably need to do that to enable
features such as themes, which work only with certain font designations
(such as +Body for text ).

The default line spacing in Normal.dotm or x is looser that that in
Normal.dot. I don't like the new settings, so I've changed normal.dotm and
the default settings to what I want. I change settings in templates and
documents that I create for clients.

Maddening problem, easy fix, I think. BTW, here's the MS Office Team's
blog on the subject:

Thanks for your reply but I think you misread my question. The problem
was character spacing, not paragraph or line spacing.

After some more testing I have found out that one of the underlying
styles has a character spacing of 10,5 pt and that explains where the
spacing is coming from. What I don't understand is: the character
spacing is overriden by direct formatting in 2003 but when opened,
converted, saved, closed, re-opened in 2007, the character spacing is
still there.

 

[Bob Buckland ?:-\)]

Hi Fredrik,

If I'm following you correctly -

1. You're starting in Word 2003 using the default Word 2003 normal style with Times New Roman 12 pt.

2. You have a paragraph style based on Normal with the only change being using Verdana 8.5 at grey 80% that you apply to a full
paragraph. (I created a style and saved it in the document, but not in the template).

3. You then applying to the full paragraph Times New Roman font, then save the document as both .doc and .docx from Word 2007.

4. You then open the Word 2003 .doc file in Word 2007, use
Office Button=>Convert, use Shift+F1 to pull up reveal formatting and check for anomolies, and also in
Font=>Launcher=>Character Spacing then save as a docx.

5. Close the new .docx file, reopen it, use Shift F1 again and check in Reveal Formatting and under Font=>Launcher=>Character
spacing and now you're seeing character spacing other than 'Normal' or the font size on the Ribbon is showing 10.5 rather than 11pt?

If so, I'm not able to reproduce this using those steps, whether reopening the document in Word 2003 or Word 2007. To generate the
text for the document I started with a blank document and typed
=rand(30,5) {Enter key}


Are you using both Word 2003 and Word 2007 on the same computer and have both open at the same time (trying to follow your use of
Format Painter).
If so, are you storing the Normal.dot (Word 2003) and Normal.dotm (Word 2007) templates in the same template folder?

Do you have Service Pack 1 applied to Office 2007?

Are both Office 2003 and Office 2007 English language editions?

Are the measurement units on your PC set to metric and the paper size set to convert between letter and A4 size automatically?

Do both Word 2003 and Word 2007 have the same default printer selected?

Do you have any add-ins running in Word?
==============
Hello,

I have a slight problem with formatting in a document. The document
was originally created in Word 2003.

One paragraph has a style with Verdana 8,5 pt and font color 80% grey.
The style is based on Normal style. Direct formatting (Times New
Roman, 11 pt) has been applied to the paragraph.

When the document is viewed in Word 2003 there are no problems, and
the same when it's viewed in Word 2007 compatibility mode. If the
document is saved as docx from Word 2003 and opened, converted and
saved in 2007, still no problems.

But: When the document is opened as doc in Word 2007, converted and
saved as docx, the document seems fine until it is closed and reopened
in Word 2007 or 2003. Then the paragraph has 10,5pt character spacing
applied!

I have also tested by using the format painter: open the original
document in Word 2003, select the paragraph, click the format painter,
switch to Word 2007 and click and drag over any text. The same thing
happens (character spacing is applied).

I have used reveal formatting in both 2003 and 2007 and there is
nothing indicating any character spacing. I have also checked the
normal style and the style used in the paragraph. This has been tested
on three different machines, on both Vista and XP with all service
packs and updates.

Any suggestions at all about why this is happening? I know how to
solve it on a document to document basis but I'm trying to figure out
the underlying problem here.

--
Fredrik E. Nilsen >>
--

Bob Buckland ?
MS Office System Products MVP

*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*

 

[PamC]

Apologies. I broke a major rule of advice giving: Before you do, listen and
pay attention. --I did notice that you said character spacing.-- One of
other ones is, of course, don't speculate.

Glad you figured it out for yourself.

Regards,
Pam

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Hi Fredrik,

If I'm following you correctly -

1. You're starting in Word 2003 using the default Word 2003 normal style with Times New Roman 12 pt.

That is correct.

2. You have a paragraph style based on Normal with the only change being using Verdana 8.5 at grey 80% that you apply to a full
paragraph. (I created a style and saved it in the document, but not in the template).

I have narrowed it down a bit: I have one single paragraph (I deleted
all the other paragraphs) that uses the Normal paragraph style. There
is also two character styles, one with Verdana 8,5 80 % gray (based on
the default paragraph font) and one with Times New Roman 11pt (based
on the previus character style) applied to the text. No sign of any
character spacing in any of the styles.

These styles are obviously results of text being copied and pasted
from at different document. In the full document there is one style
with 10,5 character spacing but it is removed in the document I'm
working on now.

3. You then applying to the full paragraph Times New Roman font, then save the document as both .doc and .docx from Word 2007.

I just save the document as doc in Word 2003.

4. You then open the Word 2003 .doc file in Word 2007, use
Office Button=>Convert, use Shift+F1 to pull up reveal formatting and check for anomolies, and also in
Font=>Launcher=>Character Spacing then save as a docx.

That is correct. No signs of any character spacing in any of the
styles or elsewhere.

5. Close the new .docx file, reopen it, use Shift F1 again and check in Reveal Formatting and under Font=>Launcher=>Character
spacing and now you're seeing character spacing other than 'Normal' or the font size on the Ribbon is showing 10.5 rather than 11pt?

I close the document and re-open it. Now the characterspacing is 10,5
in the paragraph. If I check in Reveal formatting, it says
characterspacing 10,5. If I check the characterstyles, it says
characterspacing 10,5

If so, I'm not able to reproduce this using those steps, whether reopening the document in Word 2003 or Word 2007. To generate the
text for the document I started with a blank document and typed
=rand(30,5) {Enter key}

I have tried to reproduce it my self but no luck so far. There is
obviously something inherited from text that has been pasted from a
different document. The thing I don't understand is that the character
spacing is supressed by direct formatting in 2003 but not in 2007.

One thing I discovered just now: If I save the document as docx from
Word 2003, open it in 2007, convert, save and re-open, the problem is
gone. It only happens when it is opened as doc in 2007 and converted.

Are you using both Word 2003 and Word 2007 on the same computer and have both open at the same time (trying to follow your use of
Format Painter).
If so, are you storing the Normal.dot (Word 2003) and Normal.dotm (Word 2007) templates in the same template folder?

Do you have Service Pack 1 applied to Office 2007?

Are both Office 2003 and Office 2007 English language editions?

Are the measurement units on your PC set to metric and the paper size set to convert between letter and A4 size automatically?

Do both Word 2003 and Word 2007 have the same default printer selected?

Do you have any add-ins running in Word?

It has been tested on three different computers, with both English and
Norwegian language editions. It has been tested on both Vista and XP.
All service packs are installed and noe add-ins are running. The
document can be made available if anyone wants to look at it.

Thanks for helping out. We're trying to figure out what kind of
problems we can run into when converting documents to OOXML, but this
seems more like a bug.

 

[Bob Buckland ?:-\)]

Hi Fredrik,

Yes, it would be of interest to see that document if you have a link to it.

If in Word 2003 you turn on
Tools=>Options=>Edit 'Keep track of formatting'
and place the cursor in the text with the stacked formatting what does the Style area read in the Formatting toolbar?

If I understand correctly then the base style has two character styles applied, rather than an alternate paragraph style based on
normal plus direct formatting of Times New Roman 11pt ?

Your original message mentioned that the style was based on Normal paragraph style, which would tend to indicate that the
Verdana+color style was also a paragraph style (else the 'based on' box when creating a style would allow a choice of attributes
rather than a style). If you open the Modify style dialog for each of the character styles what does the definition read for each
please?

Is one character style applied to the full paragraph and another to the other part or ??? Normally applying one character style on
top of another character style would replace the first if both were based on the same attribute of the paragraph style.

In Word 2007 when you bring up the styles pane (launcher at the bottom of
Home=>Styles group) is the box for 'Disable Linked Styles' checked?

=================
I have narrowed it down a bit: I have one single paragraph (I deleted
all the other paragraphs) that uses the Normal paragraph style. There
is also two character styles, one with Verdana 8,5 80 % gray (based on
the default paragraph font) and one with Times New Roman 11pt (based
on the previus character style) applied to the text. No sign of any
character spacing in any of the styles.

These styles are obviously results of text being copied and pasted
from at different document. In the full document there is one style
with 10,5 character spacing but it is removed in the document I'm
working on now. [snip]

I have tried to reproduce it my self but no luck so far. There is
obviously something inherited from text that has been pasted from a
different document. The thing I don't understand is that the character
spacing is supressed by direct formatting in 2003 but not in 2007. [snip]

One thing I discovered just now: If I save the document as docx from
Word 2003, open it in 2007, convert, save and re-open, the problem is
gone. It only happens when it is opened as doc in 2007 and converted.It has been tested on three different computers, with both
English and
Norwegian language editions. It has been tested on both Vista and XP.
All service packs are installed and noe add-ins are running. The
document can be made available if anyone wants to look at it.

Thanks for helping out. We're trying to figure out what kind of
problems we can run into when converting documents to OOXML, but this
seems more like a bug.

--
Fredrik E. Nilsen
http://fenilsen.wordpress.com>>
--

Bob Buckland ?
MS Office System Products MVP

*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Hi Fredrik,

Yes, it would be of interest to see that document if you have a link to it.

Here it is: http://www.enilsen.com/test_doc.doc

If in Word 2003 you turn on
Tools=>Options=>Edit 'Keep track of formatting'
and place the cursor in the text with the stacked formatting what does the Style area read in the Formatting toolbar?

It says title_large1+Times New Roman, 11 pt, not bold.

If I understand correctly then the base style has two character styles applied, rather than an alternate paragraph style based on
normal plus direct formatting of Times New Roman 11pt ?

That is correct.

Your original message mentioned that the style was based on Normal paragraph style, which would tend to indicate that the
Verdana+color style was also a paragraph style (else the 'based on' box when creating a style would allow a choice of attributes
rather than a style). If you open the Modify style dialog for each of the character styles what does the definition read for each
please?

In the original document it seemed like there was a paragraph style
based on the normal style, and a character style on top of that. I
have deleted all other paragraphs and all styles not in use.

The title_large1 style is a character style, as is title_large1+Times
New Roman 11 pt, not bold.

The first style says: Default paragraph font + Font: Verdana, 9pt,
bold, 80 % grey. The style is based on the default paragraph font.

The second style says: title_large1+Times New Roman, 11 pt, not bold,
the same as in the Style dropdown on the formatting toolbar. The style
is based on title_large1.

Is one character style applied to the full paragraph and another to the other part or ??? Normally applying one character style on
top of another character style would replace the first if both were based on the same attribute of the paragraph style.

It seems like both character styles is applied to the full paragraph.
If I go to the Style task pane, rightclick any of the styles (Normal
or the two character styles) and choose Select all 1 instances, the
full paragraph is selected.

In Word 2007 when you bring up the styles pane (launcher at the bottom of
Home=>Styles group) is the box for 'Disable Linked Styles' checked?

I have tried with this checked and unchecked, no difference.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

The first style says: Default paragraph font + Font: Verdana, 9pt,
bold, 80 % grey. The style is based on the default paragraph font.

The second style says: title_large1+Times New Roman, 11 pt, not bold,
the same as in the Style dropdown on the formatting toolbar. The style
is based on title_large1.

Just a quick followup to clarify. The first style is a character
style, the second is direct formatting.

I have done some more testing btw. I've copied the paragraph and
pasted it into a new Word 2003 document. In the new document, the text
is formatted with the Verdana 9pt etc. style, no sign of any character
spacing in the style. I save the document, open it in 2007, convert
it, save, close and re-open. Then the character spacing is applied.

I also tried to copy the paragraph from the 2003 document and paste it
in a new Word 2007 document. The text gets the Verdana 9pt formatting
in the new document., but no character spacing. I open the style task
pane and the style used is shown with character spacing in the
preview! If I right click the style and select Modify, it says Font:
Verdana 9pt, Bold, 80% grey, Expanded by 10,5 pt, based on default
paragraph font.

If I open the style inspector it says: Paragraph formatting: Normal,
plus none; Text level formatting: Title_large1 (the name of the
character style), plus Not bold, Not expanded by/condensed by. The
character spacing is not applied when I save the document, close and
re-open it.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 22:39:33 +0100, Fredrik E. Nilsen

Any one who can confirm this behaviour and maybe suggest a solution?
I'm trying to figure out problems that may occur when converting
documents from the binary formats to OOXML and this problem is a real
show-stopper.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 22:39:33 +0100, Fredrik E. Nilsen

Any one who can confirm this behaviour and maybe suggest a solution?
I'm trying to figure out problems that may occur when converting
documents from the binary formats to OOXML and this problem is a real
show-stopper.

I'm still trying to figure out the cause of the problem described
here. I would appreciate any information about this.