FrontPage for Mac..dont they make it?

G

Greg

Im almost positive i heard they make FrontPage for mac but im not having any
luck finding info about it other than a press release from 1997 for version
1.0 to be coming mac. Is it out there? is there a trial version also?
 
D

Daiya Mitchell

Nope. Doesn't exist. Try the trial version for Macromedia Dreamweaver,
which appears to be the cross-platform leader. Or Adobe GoLive, the
cross-platform competitor.

Or the FREE Nvu, likely to satisfy 90% of the audience.
http://www.nvu.com/
 
G

Greg

dam, that stinks! unlike everyone else, I HATE dreamweaver! it is nowhere
near as userfriendly and organized as FP is. I hope it comes to Mac
eventually :( Starting to rethink my switching from PC to Mac now...
Kelly
 
R

Rich

Actually, for many simple web sites, Word works really well. Create
your document in Word, go to "Save as Web Page" and try posting that to
your server. I've done several small sites with images and text this
way.
 
M

mmmmark

Daiya Mitchell said:
Or the FREE Nvu, likely to satisfy 90% of the audience.
http://www.nvu.com/



Thanks for the suggestion. This little gem sure beats the big bucks for
dreamweaver. I still am wondering/hoping that Apple releases a simple
webpage editor to go with their other offerings.

-Mark
 
M

Morten Dreier

rDaiya Mitchell said:
Nope. Doesn't exist. Try the trial version for Macromedia Dreamweaver,
which appears to be the cross-platform leader. Or Adobe GoLive, the
cross-platform competitor.

Actually there was a version 1.0 circulating, but it sucked so much that
MS pulled it even before it hit the shelves.
 
D

Daiya Mitchell

Or the FREE Nvu, likely to satisfy 90% of the audience.
Thanks for the suggestion. This little gem sure beats the big bucks for
dreamweaver. I still am wondering/hoping that Apple releases a simple
webpage editor to go with their other offerings.

I stole the idea from Corentin, who had been forced to intervene in every
webpage thread because no one seemed aware of this program, and I kept
pushing Mozilla Composer as the free option because I had never bothered to
check out the Nvu link. Haven't spent much time with Nvu, but it does look
great.

Daiya
 
T

Theresa

Actually, for many simple web sites, Word works really well. Create
your document in Word, go to "Save as Web Page" and try posting that to
your server. I've done several small sites with images and text this
way.

No, no, no! Word does not create valid web sites. It bloats the coade
unvbelievably. It does not plug in the appropriate doc type, and it
does not create accessible pages. Word is a word processing program,
not a web development program.

Here is an example:

http://mdh-test.com/gdfglkjsgkljfgkhjfgkh.htm



Here is the code for that page:

<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml"
xmlns:eek:="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice"
xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:word"
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

<head>
<meta name=Title content=" ">
<meta name=Keywords content="">
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=macintosh">
<meta name=ProgId content=Word.Document>
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11">
<meta name=Originator content="Microsoft Word 11">
<link rel=File-List href="gdfglkjsgkljfgkhjfgkh_files/filelist.xml">
<link rel=Edit-Time-Data href="gdfglkjsgkljfgkhjfgkh_files/editdata.mso">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
..shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<title> </title>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:DocumentProperties>
<o:Author>Theresa Mesa</o:Author>
<o:Template>Normal</o:Template>
<o:LastAuthor>Theresa Mesa</o:LastAuthor>
<o:Revision>1</o:Revision>
<o:TotalTime>1</o:TotalTime>
<o:Created>2005-12-01T16:45:00Z</o:Created>
<o:LastSaved>2005-12-01T16:46:00Z</o:LastSaved>
<o:pages>1</o:pages>
<o:Company>Mesa Design House</o:Company>
<o:Lines>1</o:Lines>
<o:paragraphs>1</o:paragraphs>
<o:Version>11.512</o:Version>
</o:DocumentProperties>
<o:OfficeDocumentSettings>
<o:AllowPNG/>
</o:OfficeDocumentSettings>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<w:WordDocument>
<w:DisplayHorizontalDrawingGridEvery>0</w:DisplayHorizontalDrawingGridEvery>
<w:DisplayVerticalDrawingGridEvery>0</w:DisplayVerticalDrawingGridEvery>
<w:UseMarginsForDrawingGridOrigin/>
</w:WordDocument>
</xml><![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Times New Roman";
panose-1:0 2 2 6 3 5 4 5 2 3;
mso-font-charset:0;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:50331648 0 0 0 1 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
table.MsoNormalTable
{mso-style-parent:"";
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>

</head>

<body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US style='tab-interval:.5in'>

<div class=Section1>

<p class=MsoNormal><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75"
coordsize="21600,21600"
o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f"
stroked="f">
<v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/>
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/>
<v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/>
<v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/>
<v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/>
<v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/>
<v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/>
</v:formulas>
<v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/>
<o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/>
</v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" style='width:228pt;
height:207pt'>
<v:imagedata src="gdfglkjsgkljfgkhjfgkh_files/image001.gif"
o:althref="gdfglkjsgkljfgkhjfgkh_files/image002.pct"
o:title=""/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><![if !vml]><img width=228 height=207
src="gdfglkjsgkljfgkhjfgkh_files/image003.png"
v:shapes="_x0000_i1025"><![endif]></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>gdfglkjsgkljfgkhjfgkh</p>

<p class=MsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>kfghdfgdklfghklhjdfglkjdfg</p>

<p class=MsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>dflfgdflgdlkgjkdfhgjkdfg</p>

<p class=MsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>doiifghjidgfh.kjdgfh</p>

<p class=MsoNormal>dflkjghjdfkgh</p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

Oh. My. Gosh. I could create that page in Dreamweaver or even in BBEdit
or even TextEdit with probably 10% of that code. BTW, it didn't
validate.

And will people who create web pages in Word know to go in and plug in
the title and meta tag infromation? A lot of the code Word uses is not
recognized by the W3C validator.

Dang! Word is not a web creation program, as much as Microsoft touts it to be.

--
Theresa Mesa
Mesa Design House
http://mesadesignhouse.com

Please reply to newsgroup
 
J

Jim Gordon MVP

Morten,

Maybe it's fun to slam Microsoft, but it is not true that Microsoft
pulled FrontPage for Macintosh "before it even hit the shelves."
FrontPage for Mac version 1 was marketed for about 2 years.

At the time Microsoft made the decision to not bring version 2 to the
market Apple was having market share problems. Version 1 was criticized
for many things, most of which were corrected in version 2, which never
made its way to the Macintosh.

FrontPage continues to be a product that is used by many web site
developers and home web page makers and is part of Microsoft Office on
the Windows platform.

Since Apple's problems are now ancient history and Apple is now selling
a whole lot of Macs, the Macintosh market is once again appealing to
large scale marketers such as Microsoft.

Looking to the immediate future you might find it encouraging that
Office 12 for Macintosh will support Microsoft's decision to go with XML
as the default file format for Word, Excel and PowerPoint. You can get a
head start on this format by visiting this blog:
http://blogs.msdn.com/brian_jones/

This is a solid indication that as long as there is a significant and
potentially profitable market that Microsoft will continue to offer
products to compete in the Mac marketplace. Whether Microsoft will offer
any kind of HTML/XML/XSLT editor (ala FrontPage or something else) for
Macintosh remains to be seen. There's already GoLive, DreamWeaver and
NVU to compete against. I'm not sure that there are enough Mac web
developers who would switch to FrontPage to make it worthwhile for
Microsoft to spend a lot of bucks on a Mac version of FrontPage.

-Jim
 
T

Theresa

Looking to the immediate future you might find it encouraging that
Office 12 for Macintosh will support Microsoft's decision to go with
XML as the default file format for Word, Excel and PowerPoint. You can
get a head start on this format by visiting this blog:
http://blogs.msdn.com/brian_jones/

As long as they don't plug a lot of bloated code into the pages, and
they produce code that validates, this could be interesting...

--
Theresa Mesa
Mesa Design House
http://mesadesignhouse.com

Please reply to newsgroup
 
J

Jim Gordon MVP

Hi Theresa,

If by "bloated" code you mean code that is intented to be read by
computers instead of humans, then you will surely be disappointed not
only by Microsoft products, but all products that will take a generic
kind of document and convert it to XML. You can put a lot of different
stuff into a Word document, and there are lots of properties associated
with each of them. Each item will have appropriate tags, and could be a
lot of tags in a given document. You can bet that the code will be
correct and will be valid XML.

There is nothing wrong with simplicity and good old-fashioned hand
crafting. These skills are highly prized by those who share them, but
the intimidating code produced by automated code generators is neither
wrong nor bad and will produce the desired results when a computer
follows the code. Computer generated code can be edited by hand, but
that is not a major consideration in its creation or implementation.

-Jim
 
T

Theresa

Hi Theresa,

If by "bloated" code you mean code that is intented to be read by
computers instead of humans, then you will surely be disappointed not
only by Microsoft products, but all products that will take a generic
kind of document and convert it to XML. You can put a lot of different
stuff into a Word document, and there are lots of properties associated
with each of them. Each item will have appropriate tags, and could be a
lot of tags in a given document. You can bet that the code will be
correct and will be valid XML.

There is nothing wrong with simplicity and good old-fashioned hand
crafting. These skills are highly prized by those who share them, but
the intimidating code produced by automated code generators is neither
wrong nor bad and will produce the desired results when a computer
follows the code. Computer generated code can be edited by hand, but
that is not a major consideration in its creation or implementation.

-Jim

Bloated code increases the page size, therefore increasing the amount
of bandwidth that page uses every time someone accesses it. If you're
paying for a certain amount of bandwidth per month, this could be a
problem. I have seen two sites be taken offline in the last month
because they had exceeded their bandwidth allocation. Had nothing to do
with humans, it had to do with computer limitations.

Bloated code can also increase the amount of time it takes for the page
to download - considering that nearly 40% of US Internet users are
still on dial-up, this can be an issue. It is also search
engine-unfriendly, especially for people who are trying to establish an
Internet presence. SE spiders are seeking relevant content within the
body copy - Google essentially ignores the metatags now - and will
crawl a page only so long in order to find that content. If the page is
bloated with code, the spider will move on, and the page will likely
rank poorly, even dropping off the listings Google provides (there is a
numerical page limit, I believe) . Unless you're putting up a vanity
site, this is a bad thing.

Again, this is not a human-reading issue, it is a computer-reading
issue, to put it too simply.

Having formatting internally on the page also bloats it.

How will MS format text within Office application-driven XML? Using
CSS, XSL, or Data Islands? Will the user be able to designate an
external style sheet? Will it use Javascript or anything else for
formatting? Will it be supported across the browsers (Data Islands are
not) and across platforms?


--
Theresa Mesa
Mesa Design House
http://mesadesignhouse.com

Please reply to newsgroup
 
J

Jim Gordon MVP

Theresa said:
Bloated code increases the page size, therefore increasing the amount of
bandwidth that page uses every time someone accesses it. If you're
paying for a certain amount of bandwidth per month, this could be a
problem. I have seen two sites be taken offline in the last month
because they had exceeded their bandwidth allocation. Had nothing to do
with humans, it had to do with computer limitations.

Bloated code can also increase the amount of time it takes for the page
to download - considering that nearly 40% of US Internet users are still
on dial-up, this can be an issue. It is also search engine-unfriendly,
especially for people who are trying to establish an Internet presence.
SE spiders are seeking relevant content within the body copy - Google
essentially ignores the metatags now - and will crawl a page only so
long in order to find that content. If the page is bloated with code,
the spider will move on, and the page will likely rank poorly, even
dropping off the listings Google provides (there is a numerical page
limit, I believe) . Unless you're putting up a vanity site, this is a
bad thing.

Again, this is not a human-reading issue, it is a computer-reading
issue, to put it too simply.

Having formatting internally on the page also bloats it.

How will MS format text within Office application-driven XML? Using CSS,
XSL, or Data Islands? Will the user be able to designate an external
style sheet? Will it use Javascript or anything else for formatting?
Will it be supported across the browsers (Data Islands are not) and
across platforms?

The good news is that well over half the people do have high speed
internet access. I do. My mom doesn't. I think it's unrealistic to
expect the world to use PINE and LYNX as the standards for email and web
browsing. The days of text only are over. Your advice about bandwidth,
although sound, is probably not going to make a dent in today's web or
the web of the future. I cringe whenever I visit a site that starts off
with a flsh video that could have easily been done better in formatted
HTML text instead.

Your comment about Google is not a good sign for the company. I just ran
a quick test to see what Google reported for "red chevrolet camaro for
sale." If Google had been using metadata properly it would have returned
only red Chevrolet Camaros that are for sale and it would have
transformed the results into some sort of nicely layed out report.
Google failed to do that. It only returned pages with "red" "Chevrolet"
"Camaro" and "used cars." This does not bode well for Google at all.
Someone with some smarts could come up with a web search engine that
uses meta data properly and their search would blow Google away. Maybe
we should start our own search engine, do you think?

The best source I know of for info about the new Office XML formats is
Brians blog:
http://blogs.msdn.com/brian_jones/

The best general source for Microsoft technical information is the
Microsoft Developer Network.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/

Beta versions of the upcoming Office 12 will be offered to the public
shortly. You can sign up to be a preview tester here for Windows Office
12 (it's way too early to even think about the Mac version):
http://www.microsoft.com/office/preview/default.mspx

-Jim
 
T

Theresa

The good news is that well over half the people do have high speed
internet access. I do. My mom doesn't. I think it's unrealistic to
expect the world to use PINE and LYNX as the standards for email and
web browsing. The days of text only are over. Your advice about
bandwidth, although sound, is probably not going to make a dent in
today's web or the web of the future. I cringe whenever I visit a site
that starts off with a flsh video that could have easily been done
better in formatted HTML text instead.

Gee, I don't see 63% as well over half. Seventy-dfive percent, yes, but
not 63%, and that is going up fractionally each month. I see it as a
little over half, leaving a little less than half as still on dial-up.
Glass half empty, half full, I suppose, but you'd better hope that
those 40% (who have money to spend, BTW) are willing to waiting for
your site to load. Most people are willing to wait no more than 10
seconds, and usually close to 7 seconds, unless they really, really
want what you're selling. If they've never met you via your site, that
is unlikely.

And blind people (who use computers, BTW) have money to spend too. They
also deserve to have a web that they can utilize, which is why laws are
in place now requiring government websites to be accessible under
Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. Also, if the Federal government
is a customer of yours, your site must be accesible. Providing a phone
number that people can call is not considered adequate. Test readers
for those unable to use a web site via normal means use Lynx and
Lynx-type readers generally their basis for functionality.

What you will see is more and more of a push to accessibility, as
disabled advocates make more inroads into accessibility for their
charges. Since I'm disabled myself (in other ways), this is a subject
near and dear to my heart. Since my husband is the primary webmaster
for our county schools department, he is having to make their
layers-deep site accessible.

I'm a designer who understands marketing. I look at disabled people and
think, they still buy clothes, food, furniture, and all the other
things abled people can buy. Why would I not try to accommodate that
market? Why would I dismiss that source of income?

I cringe because the search engines can't read the site. Same thing
with frames-based sites. Their only hope is lots of incoming links or a
pay-per-click campaign.
Your comment about Google is not a good sign for the company. I just
ran a quick test to see what Google reported for "red chevrolet camaro
for sale." If Google had been using metadata properly it would have
returned only red Chevrolet Camaros that are for sale and it would have
transformed the results into some sort of nicely layed out report.
Google failed to do that. It only returned pages with "red" "Chevrolet"
"Camaro" and "used cars." This does not bode well for Google at all.
Someone with some smarts could come up with a web search engine that
uses meta data properly and their search would blow Google away. Maybe
we should start our own search engine, do you think?

The downside of this is the people will begin doing what they were
doing before, by keyword loading their metatags, among other things.
It's a slippery slope to other black-hat techniques.
The best source I know of for info about the new Office XML formats is
Brians blog:
http://blogs.msdn.com/brian_jones/

The best general source for Microsoft technical information is the
Microsoft Developer Network.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/

Beta versions of the upcoming Office 12 will be offered to the public
shortly. You can sign up to be a preview tester here for Windows Office
12 (it's way too early to even think about the Mac version):
http://www.microsoft.com/office/preview/default.mspx

I do have a PC, too. I might do this.



--
Theresa Mesa
Mesa Design House
http://mesadesignhouse.com

Please reply to newsgroup
 
J

Jim Gordon MVP

Someone told me today that Google has a special way to submit web pages
with XML tags and schemas. I tried to find it, but wasn't able to. I'll
check more tomorrow.

-Jim
 
T

Theresa

Someone told me today that Google has a special way to submit web pages
with XML tags and schemas. I tried to find it, but wasn't able to. I'll
check more tomorrow.

-Jim

Generally with Google or any other search engine, you don't need to
submit your site, regardless of what different software programs and
services tell you and try to charge you for, if the site is built
properly. You need to submit your site to directories, but not to
search engines. If people are linking to you (relevant links), you'll
be found by their spiders.

However, what you're looking for is:

https://www.google.com/webmasters/sitemaps/docs/en/protocol.html

--
Theresa Mesa
Mesa Design House
http://mesadesignhouse.com

Please reply to newsgroup
 

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