FrontPage Soon to Be Orphaned By Microsoft?

C

clintonG

These kinds of announcements [1] always cause speculation because it is
interesting to note that Microsoft consistently fails to provide customers
and developers with a 'road map' that in this context explains how FrontPage
will or will not play a role in the emerging consolidation of the
design-development paradigm.

I've always contended that FrontPage should have been integrated with Visual
Studio from day one but they implemented a crippled 'designer' instead. Now
it is clear there is an entirely different strategy.

As a personal note, if I can survive the attempts by local politicians to
steal my domain name and drive me out of business I will be looking forward
to working with the new paradigm. If the politicians succeed I will be
leaving web design and development.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1]
http://www.ftponline.com/weblogger/forum.aspx?ID=3&DATE=09/14/2005&blog=#437
 
J

JIMCO Software

clintonG said:
These kinds of announcements [1] always cause speculation because it
is interesting to note that Microsoft consistently fails to provide
customers and developers with a 'road map' that in this context
explains how FrontPage will or will not play a role in the emerging
consolidation of the design-development paradigm.
Click to expand...

I think the power isn't the only thing that's lost there in Wisconson. ;)

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

FrontPage add-ins for FrontPage 2000 - 2003
 
T

Tom Pepper Willett

Remember, George has a serious reputation in many newsgroups, and that
reputation is not good.

--
===
Tom "Pepper" Willett
Microsoft MVP - FrontPage
---
About FrontPage 2003:
http://office.microsoft.com/home/office.aspx?assetid=FX01085802
How to ask a newsgroup question:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
===
| clintonG wrote:
| > These kinds of announcements [1] always cause speculation because it
| > is interesting to note that Microsoft consistently fails to provide
| > customers and developers with a 'road map' that in this context
| > explains how FrontPage will or will not play a role in the emerging
| > consolidation of the design-development paradigm.
| >
|
| I think the power isn't the only thing that's lost there in Wisconson. ;)
|
| --
| Jim Cheshire
| JIMCO Software
| http://www.jimcosoftware.com
|
| FrontPage add-ins for FrontPage 2000 - 2003
|
|
|
|
 
S

Steve Easton

Why would local politicians be trying to steal your domain name??

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed............
........................with a computer
 
J

Jon Spivey

Can you spell out how someone could steal a doman name? If a politician is
trying to steal ( as in dishonest) you could kick up a hell of a stink.
Depending on your goals you could call the politician and explain that you
don't think it's not very nice for somebody trying to be elected to "steal"
something, he'd probably get the point. Or you could call your local paper
and say this politician is trying to steal something from me - that would
make a good story
 
K

Kevin Spencer

Hi Clinton,

I would have to think that, rather than orphaning FrontPage, Microsoft is
finally integrating the components of FrontPage into their suite of
applications, a move which I, like you, have been hoping for (and asking
them to do) for years.

My guess is that what Microsoft is doing is componentizing FrontPage into
the various functional areas it works so well in, and making these
components usable to other applications, in an attempt to both simplify the
development process across different programming teams within the
Enterprise, having them use common components, and improve the functionality
of these various products which incorporate HTML and web residence.

I would also guess that FrontPage will continue to thrive as a stand-alone
web development product, and incorporate components from other applications,
like Visual Studio.Net, for the purpose of doing relatively simple web
application development tasks. That is, FrontPage's emphasis has always been
on the HTML user interface, and web management, while products like Visual
Studio.Net have emphasized programming in general, and web application
development on a large scale.

If so, this would further indicate the brilliance that Microsoft has
demonstrated in recent years, perhaps best exemplified in the .Net platform.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Neither a follower nor a lender be.
 
C

clintonG

To coin a phrase I think we are on the same page on this except I believe it
is likely the FrontPage brand will be retired as it has too much baggage.
New products stand a much better chance of being branded to compete with the
Dreamweaver/Flash juggernaut. Those with simplistic requirements will likely
be offered an incentive to adopt Visual Web Developer Express and others
Visual Studio when considering those who will remain working with stand
alone applications.

I want to agree with your premise that certain aspects of FrontPage are and
will be reusable however but which aspects can or will be reused is the
question? We know Microsoft has not been not shy about duplicity across
their product lines as they have imposed how many different text editors?
How many different script parsers? When I have bitched about this I was told
there has been recognition of this problem and a consolidation is in
progress. Redundancy has been a real costly problem and I contend we are
seeing the consolidation process emerge with the release of an era of
entirely new products that will provide greater support for integration and
interoperability.

FrontPage has always been branded and marketed as one of several Office
productivity solutions. Understanding the emerging Office Server and
development platform strategy is key to speculation in the context of this
topic. Even VBA is being retired which is none too soon. Office 12 has
adopted XML as its native file format and Microsoft has made it clear this
past week that they are stratifying the product lines. Office is to becoming
the development paradigm.

At first it seems too many new product choices are being offered but I agree
what we are seeing is a componentized development strategy that again I
speculate must and will also be tied to rebranding which will result in
those with minimal requirements to be migrated to Express and others Visual
Studio leaving FrontPage as a brand to be retired. Time will tell ya heh?

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/







Kevin Spencer said:
Hi Clinton,

I would have to think that, rather than orphaning FrontPage, Microsoft is
finally integrating the components of FrontPage into their suite of
applications, a move which I, like you, have been hoping for (and asking
them to do) for years.

My guess is that what Microsoft is doing is componentizing FrontPage into
the various functional areas it works so well in, and making these
components usable to other applications, in an attempt to both simplify
the development process across different programming teams within the
Enterprise, having them use common components, and improve the
functionality of these various products which incorporate HTML and web
residence.

I would also guess that FrontPage will continue to thrive as a stand-alone
web development product, and incorporate components from other
applications, like Visual Studio.Net, for the purpose of doing relatively
simple web application development tasks. That is, FrontPage's emphasis
has always been on the HTML user interface, and web management, while
products like Visual Studio.Net have emphasized programming in general,
and web application development on a large scale.

If so, this would further indicate the brilliance that Microsoft has
demonstrated in recent years, perhaps best exemplified in the .Net
platform.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Neither a follower nor a lender be.

clintonG said:
These kinds of announcements [1] always cause speculation because it is
interesting to note that Microsoft consistently fails to provide
customers and developers with a 'road map' that in this context explains
how FrontPage will or will not play a role in the emerging consolidation
of the design-development paradigm.

I've always contended that FrontPage should have been integrated with
Visual Studio from day one but they implemented a crippled 'designer'
instead. Now it is clear there is an entirely different strategy.

As a personal note, if I can survive the attempts by local politicians to
steal my domain name and drive me out of business I will be looking
forward to working with the new paradigm. If the politicians succeed I
will be leaving web design and development.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1]
http://www.ftponline.com/weblogger/forum.aspx?ID=3&DATE=09/14/2005&blog=#437
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
C

clintonG

Briefly, metro Milwaukee is a region in economic and cultural decline. The
politicians and so-called civic leaders who ruined the region over the past
several decades are like a cancer and are still in control. They are now
attempting to 'brand' the region as an economic powerhouse and have
announced they are going to use the web to do so.

They want the metromilwaukee.com domain name and have been spoofing the
search engines. Use any search engine, submit the term "metromilwaukee" and
you can observe how they are using the .com TLD in the page title of the
sites they control which enables them to cheat page rankings and spoof the
use of the .com TLD which I registered in 1997.

I obtained the .com TLD and over the years have made various attempts to
build a regional portal. I am the classic little guy who is opposed by
politicians and others who want what I have but are subversive and corrupt
and are attempting to steal what they want.

Its not the first time they have done this to me and I am not the only one
in the region that has been victimized in this manner. Its how business has
been done in Milwaukee which is just as likely to have been similarly done
elsewhere I must acknowledge for the sake of the nitpickers and apologists
reading this. If you are not politically favored they steal what they want.
God Bless America.

I can and have proved my claims in another context; the same group of
corrupt politicians and civic manipulators stole an architectural proposal
and drawings I developed to build a civic project on the Milwaukee River
Walk but I'm more interested in staying focused on the .com topic for now as
I am in fact virtually alone trying to survive and stand off the politicians
and civic controllers.

Without the support of people who can help me defend and repeal the
politicians and civic controllers they will be able to force me to fold not
long from now. They will most likely do so by obtaining a trademark which
they can then use to force me to cease and desist using the 'metromilwaukee'
brand in a domain name.

That is their plan.

The politicians and civic controllers are in the LAMP camp. I am involved in
the Microsoft Partner Program and have been working my proverbial @ss off
trying to learn C# and use the .NET Framework to build software applications
which I will release through the metromilwaukee.com domain.

I too can eventually apply for a trademark noting the use of any geographic
terminology makes obtaining the trademark very complex and difficult. It can
be done though because it has been done by others. Defending the mark then
becomes the issue. The trademark laws were created to protect the little guy
but the little guy needs big money just to defend the mark. Again, God Bless
America and the jew paper Federal Reserve notes to which it now stands.

So. the only way to route around the money trick is to use the web and gain
support from large numbers of people who choose to support the little guy
with cash donations, playing the search engine numbers game by obtaining the
support of thousands to link to the little guy's web page and of course seek
the moral and ethical support of others interested in doing the right thing
which in this case means supporting the little guy by disallowing corrupt
politicians from stealing what they want from whomever they want whenever
they want.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/










Steve Easton said:
Why would local politicians be trying to steal your domain name??

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed............
.......................with a computer

clintonG said:
These kinds of announcements [1] always cause speculation because it is
interesting to note that Microsoft consistently fails to provide
customers
and developers with a 'road map' that in this context explains how
FrontPage
will or will not play a role in the emerging consolidation of the
design-development paradigm.

I've always contended that FrontPage should have been integrated with
Visual
Studio from day one but they implemented a crippled 'designer' instead.
Now
it is clear there is an entirely different strategy.

As a personal note, if I can survive the attempts by local politicians to
steal my domain name and drive me out of business I will be looking
forward
to working with the new paradigm. If the politicians succeed I will be
leaving web design and development.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1]
http://www.ftponline.com/weblogger/forum.aspx?ID=3&DATE=09/14/2005&blog=#437
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
S

Steve Easton

I took a look, and I think your issue is with an overzealous, "legally uninformed" web
designer,
because from what I've seen the last few years I don't think there's a politician
intelligent enough to use a domain name for another website in a page title.

I would think a "nice informative letter" to the City Council would get it removed in a
heartbeat.

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed............
........................with a computer
 
C

clintonG

One thing I learned early; never underestimate an adversary.

Especially because the day those who are now conductring themselves as
antagonists called me in to their office to negotiate some 'thing' as I was
led to presume, the owner of a web development firm I now know to be a
co-conspirator was registering almost every other TLD that was available.

What strategy may best be used to seek a supportive response from the web
community at large?

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
 
M

Murray

What strategy may best be used to seek a supportive response from the web
community at large?
Click to expand...

That's a very tough question. I suppose cultivating a credible presence on
blogs and forums would be the fastest way to build support, but how others
can support you short of just throwing money is not clear.
 
S

Steve Easton

Well, registering domains that sound like another isn't illegal.
Not sure how copyright laws apply to domain names but you may have some
solid ground to stand on in that area.

What would happen if someone tried to use microsoft.org or cnn.org??

First thing I would do is renew your domain registration for 5 or 10 years, instead of doing
it a year at a time.
That way they know you plan on being around awhile.

Then I think I'd consult with an attorney who specializes in copyright issues, and at least
have a letter of intent sent to the Milwaukee city council.


--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed............
........................with a computer
 
C

clintonG

I've studied the legal doctrines and became well informed by lawyers after
having my architectural works stolen and note for the most part, the same
people and organizations are involved all over again. While I have learned
that I would prevail, that situation has become impractical for me to
proceed with a claim. Too much to explain at the moment but to explain...

We can not copyright a domain name. In fact according to case law none of us
can claim to even own a domain name as it is simply leased from the
registrars. Our only recourse in this context is the use of a registered
trademark. Marks such as the SM and TM can be used to indicate intent but
can not be defended until the mark is registered and then and only then can
the encircled R be used. Microsoft and CNN are registered trademarks. That
is why those type of domain names are protected and domain name squatting
was not allowed. No registered trademark? Fair game apparently as there is
no other means of protection that applies to web enabled software
applications that depend on the use of a domain name to access and operate.
There is something to be said about business patents but not for now okay?

Finally, in part, its the Milwaukee city council (so to speak) that are
involved as co-conspirators noting most of the politicians involved have
almost certainly been informed and know about my efforts.I have the
METROmilwaukee tradename registered with the State of Wisconsin and have
paid fees to do so but note, a tradename is not a strong means of defense,
in fact it is indefensible and is only one of several tactics used to
establish usage and intent. Without question, I was first to use the mark in
commerce but I need a trademark and then I need to defend it. Most of us at
one time or another have confused tradenames and trademarks.

So I don't think the antagonists can be held off using money. They are
already talking in the local press about a $12 million budget they want to
raise. Aside from strategies and tactics I simply can not discuss at this
time it seems my defense must be conducted in the court of public opinion
where the underhanded and unethical conduct of the antagonists proves
sufficient to hang them with their own rope and yes, I think I should start
blogging on the web which in a sense is what we've been doing when using
Usenet :)

<%= Clinton Gallagher
 
M

Murray

I have just participated in a lawsuit claiming one site copied another (I
was neither plaintiff nor defendent). The two domain names were -

areallylongdomainnameherekits.com, and
areallylongdomainnameherekit.com

The judge allowed a summary judgment that this was perfectly legal, arguing
that you cannot own, register, mark, or otherwise protect a domain name that
is *NOT* a well established service or trade mark, business name, etc.
 
C

clintonG

Although I have no knowledge of that case, that's the legal doctrine I've
touched on previously Murray. There was a case that established the
precedent from which all subsequent rulings are based on monkey see monkey
do until new circumstances alter or abolish previous rulings. That's what
they call case law. I'd like to know what you learned about service marks
however and business names in general as your comments are contradictory to
what I have learned.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
 
C

clintonG

I do recall hearing about that, did not follow it closely but apparentlty
Microsoft was compelled to fold as the guy was using his real name.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
 
M

Murray

I've told you most of what I know about it.

Part of the 'copy' claim was based on the similarity of domain names. The
defense pleaded that this should be thrown out, and the judge agreed by
passing a summary judgment, rather than leaving that claim in. Plaintiff
was claiming copyright infringement, and the ruling found no basis for that
claim.

I can tell you that my domain (great-web-sights.com) is quite similar to
others (greatwebsights.com), yet there is no copyright infringement issue
there (mine is much better, of course). There are MANY such instances on
the web.
 

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