General Project Engineering Question ?

[Scudder]

Since this is a discussion forum ~ I’ll throw this one into the pool.

Am I missing something here or are some of the posters trying to defeat the
whole point of MS Project ?

I see posts where users and to an increasing degree developers are
attempting to set start dates and finish dates. To me, this defeats the whole
point of MS project. If you wanted to set dates other than constraining
milestones, you may as well use Excel.

Is it therefore the correct thing to advise posters how to achieve their
goals, rather than advise them of the principles of project engineering ?

I believe that MS Project is a much and unfairly maligned product that does
what it is supposed to do very well, okay it has some annoying quirks. I also
believe that it is much misused. If anyone wants to see some of MS Projects
predecessors, I still have a copy of the K&H original source code written in
Fortran IV (4 byte word) circa 1974, it was known as Cresta. And yes, it
still compiles, runs and works. No graphics, data only, you have to draw your
own network diagram. Great then, I run it up now and then as a reminder of
how far we have come (forward pass isn't just a Rugby term).

My point is of course, we seem to be bypassing the basic principles of
project engineering itself – CPA / CPM in the interests of an immedietly
satisfying end result…end date, a fabrication of temporal constants as
abstract as time’s fabric itself.

Or maybe I’m taking it too seriously.

 

[John]

Since this is a discussion forum ~ I’ll throw this one into the pool.

Am I missing something here or are some of the posters trying to defeat the
whole point of MS Project ?

I see posts where users and to an increasing degree developers are
attempting to set start dates and finish dates. To me, this defeats the whole
point of MS project. If you wanted to set dates other than constraining
milestones, you may as well use Excel.

Is it therefore the correct thing to advise posters how to achieve their
goals, rather than advise them of the principles of project engineering ?

I believe that MS Project is a much and unfairly maligned product that does
what it is supposed to do very well, okay it has some annoying quirks. I also
believe that it is much misused. If anyone wants to see some of MS Projects
predecessors, I still have a copy of the K&H original source code written in
Fortran IV (4 byte word) circa 1974, it was known as Cresta. And yes, it
still compiles, runs and works. No graphics, data only, you have to draw your
own network diagram. Great then, I run it up now and then as a reminder of
how far we have come (forward pass isn't just a Rugby term).

My point is of course, we seem to be bypassing the basic principles of
project engineering itself – CPA / CPM in the interests of an immedietly
satisfying end result…end date, a fabrication of temporal constants as
abstract as time’s fabric itself.

Or maybe I’m taking it too seriously.

Scudder,
I'll say one thing. You are right that many users who pick up Project or
have it forced on them, have very little knowledge of the principals of
dynamic scheduling (i.e. project management). They in fact do try to
"force the issue" and therefore defeat the reason for using a scheduling
application. Our job is to help them understand how to use Project -
properly. We can't begin to teach them all the principals of project
management or even all the intricacies of the Project application
itself. We attempt to steer them in the right direction, whether that is
directly answering a simple question or suggesting they get the proper
training. That's all we can do in this forum.

Was that just one thing?

John
Project MVP

 

[Scudder]

yes John, just one thing.

Though I know the answers to some posters questions I occasionally am
tempted to ask "But why would you want to do that"

Lee.

 

[davegb]

yes John, just one thing.

Though I know the answers to some posters questions I occasionally am
tempted to ask "But why would you want to do that"

Lee.

- Show quoted text -

My read on this issue has evolved over the years of participating in
this and other forums. (I was one of the original MS MVPs way back
when). I used to try to drive home good scheduling practices, to the
point of alienating newbies at times. Now, I usually try to help them
solve the immediate problem, then suggest that there might be a much
better way and point them towards CPM scheduling and Project
Management. Some take the bait, others just eat the worm and go on.
Such is life!

 

[John]

yes John, just one thing.

Though I know the answers to some posters questions I occasionally am
tempted to ask "But why would you want to do that"

Lee.





My read on this issue has evolved over the years of participating in
this and other forums. (I was one of the original MS MVPs way back
when). I used to try to drive home good scheduling practices, to the
point of alienating newbies at times. Now, I usually try to help them
solve the immediate problem, then suggest that there might be a much
better way and point them towards CPM scheduling and Project
Management. Some take the bait, others just eat the worm and go on.
Such is life!

Dave,
I like you analogy about the bait and worm. So true

John

 

[Jack Dahlgren]

Since this is a discussion forum ~ I'll throw this one into the pool.

Am I missing something here or are some of the posters trying to defeat
the
whole point of MS Project ?

Yes, even Microsoft is trying to defeat the whole point of MS Project.

Some of these attempts are worthwhile in certain contexts (allowing people
to post time to projects rather than to individual activities for example),
while in other contexts they are bad practice.

Project is just a tool. If people want to mis-use it, then let them go
ahead. They typically have a reason, and sometimes really project is the
wrong tool for the job. In other cases, they don't really know what to do
and can be educated. Dave's post covers that very well.

I once saw a man hammering a nail with a wrench. There was nothing else at
hand. The nail he was hammering was a sign for a garage sale. I bought the
wrench for $0.25. It has been much more valuable to me than it was to him.

The point being that it is just software, just a tool. The value of it lies
within the user and the process and the ends it can be put towards. This
forum is about the tool more than the user or the process so I have learned
not to be surprised by anything.

-Jack Dahlgren

 

[davegb]

Yes, even Microsoft is trying to defeat the whole point of MS Project.

Some of these attempts are worthwhile in certain contexts (allowing people
to post time to projects rather than to individual activities for example),
while in other contexts they are bad practice.

Project is just a tool. If people want to mis-use it, then let them go
ahead. They typically have a reason, and sometimes really project is the
wrong tool for the job. In other cases, they don't really know what to do
and can be educated. Dave's post covers that very well.

I once saw a man hammering a nail with a wrench. There was nothing else at
hand. The nail he was hammering was a sign for a garage sale. I bought the
wrench for $0.25. It has been much more valuable to me than it was to him.

The point being that it is just software, just a tool. The value of it lies
within the user and the process and the ends it can be put towards. This
forum is about the tool more than the user or the process so I have learned
not to be surprised by anything.

-Jack Dahlgren

As I've said in this forum many times, "A hammer makes a lousy
screwdriver. A screwdriver makes a lousy hammer". This is, of course,
based on personal experience!

 

[John]

As I've said in this forum many times, "A hammer makes a lousy
screwdriver. A screwdriver makes a lousy hammer". This is, of course,
based on personal experience!

Dave,
I agree that a hammer makes a lousy screwdriver - it just can't handle
the task. But, sometimes a good hefty screwdriver makes a half decent
hammer - in a pinch. This is also based on personal experience

So how does this relate? I've seen and even helped some people use
Project in ways that were never intended. It's that hefty screwdriver
thing.

John

 

[davegb]

Dave,
I agree that a hammer makes a lousy screwdriver - it just can't handle
the task. But, sometimes a good hefty screwdriver makes a half decent
hammer - in a pinch. This is also based on personal experience

So how does this relate? I've seen and even helped some people use
Project in ways that were never intended. It's that hefty screwdriver
thing.

John

The relationship is that any software, including Project, can be bent
to many uses other than the originally intended use. I had a friend,
years ago, in the early days of PC's, that used Lotus as a Word
Processor! And I've seen some pretty bunged up applications of
Project. I encourage people to find software that suits their purpose,
not to try to get something they have to do something it's not
intended for. My experience is that I always end up regretting it in
the long run, and realize I'd have been better off investing the time
and money in the correct application rather than spending endless
hours thinking up clever workarounds to make something work. If I need
a hammer, I go get a hammer! So in this forum, when people are trying
to do strictly resource management or financial analysis or something
other than project scheduling using Project, I recommend they use
Excel or some proprietary software instead.

As far as using a big screwdriver as a hammer, you may be fine with
it. But I prefer a hammer to hammer with! I just looked down at my
knuckles and noticed all the scars. I know that some of them were from
using a screwdriver as a hammer. I don't need any more of those!

 

[Sean]

As a general comment on users not leveraging dynamic scheduling in
Project, I can think of a couple reasons they might want to directly
enter start and finish dates:

1. Their priority is time. Of the 3 (or four, depending on your
labelling) Primary Constraints of Time, Quality, and Budget, sometimes
Time is the most important thing. If the project cannot finish any
later than a certain date, then that seems like an important thing to
schedule by. Or if parts of the project can only be accomplished
during a certain window (perhaps something seasonally affected or only
while another project is taking place) then using dates as constraints
seems just fine.

2. Using Iterative or Agile development. For a lot of software
development, different people are experimenting with iterative or
agile development. My company is doing that right now. For us, it
means that every couple of weeks, we accomplish something and publish
it. The Time in this case is set (duration is fixed) so it makes sense
to have fixed start and finish dates for each iteration. This process
gets repeated until something is satisfied. I don't know a lot about
Agile development, but somehow the project has to end!

That being said, I really prefer good old Project Management myself --
the "waterfall" analogy I hear used sometimes. In such an instance, an
instance for which MS Project was designed, dynamic scheduling makes
much more sense. As far as I know there aren't as many Agile or
Iterative software programs like MS Project to manage them, so they
get stuck with the really big screwdriver and adjust.

My two bits

--Sean

 

[John]

The relationship is that any software, including Project, can be bent
to many uses other than the originally intended use. I had a friend,
years ago, in the early days of PC's, that used Lotus as a Word
Processor! And I've seen some pretty bunged up applications of
Project. I encourage people to find software that suits their purpose,
not to try to get something they have to do something it's not
intended for. My experience is that I always end up regretting it in
the long run, and realize I'd have been better off investing the time
and money in the correct application rather than spending endless
hours thinking up clever workarounds to make something work. If I need
a hammer, I go get a hammer! So in this forum, when people are trying
to do strictly resource management or financial analysis or something
other than project scheduling using Project, I recommend they use
Excel or some proprietary software instead.

As far as using a big screwdriver as a hammer, you may be fine with
it. But I prefer a hammer to hammer with! I just looked down at my
knuckles and noticed all the scars. I know that some of them were from
using a screwdriver as a hammer. I don't need any more of those!

Dave,
I agree with you 100%. I had just such a case recently wherein a user
for some reason I didn't fully appreciate, wanted to use Project for
something it was not intended. They wanted my help. I tried to suggest
alternate applications and I also tried to explain how Project should be
used. They weren't interested. Since they were willing to pay me to help
them, I did. I find that sometimes doing some off-the-wall things like
that can open my perspective. It's called thinking outside the box.
Unfortunately I quickly forget to much of what I learn so I forget which
box I got out of :-(

With regard to the hammer screwdriver. You're up on the roof building
something. You have a small nail to set. All you have with you is your
hefty screwdriver - the hammer is back in your workshop down the ladder
and around the house. Are you going to set the nail with what you've got
or are you going to go down the ladder, around the house, get the
hammer, go back around the house and up the ladder to set that nail? To
each his own.

John

 

[John]

As a general comment on users not leveraging dynamic scheduling in
Project, I can think of a couple reasons they might want to directly
enter start and finish dates:

1. Their priority is time. Of the 3 (or four, depending on your
labelling) Primary Constraints of Time, Quality, and Budget, sometimes
Time is the most important thing. If the project cannot finish any
later than a certain date, then that seems like an important thing to
schedule by. Or if parts of the project can only be accomplished
during a certain window (perhaps something seasonally affected or only
while another project is taking place) then using dates as constraints
seems just fine.

2. Using Iterative or Agile development. For a lot of software
development, different people are experimenting with iterative or
agile development. My company is doing that right now. For us, it
means that every couple of weeks, we accomplish something and publish
it. The Time in this case is set (duration is fixed) so it makes sense
to have fixed start and finish dates for each iteration. This process
gets repeated until something is satisfied. I don't know a lot about
Agile development, but somehow the project has to end!

That being said, I really prefer good old Project Management myself --
the "waterfall" analogy I hear used sometimes. In such an instance, an
instance for which MS Project was designed, dynamic scheduling makes
much more sense. As far as I know there aren't as many Agile or
Iterative software programs like MS Project to manage them, so they
get stuck with the really big screwdriver and adjust.

My two bits

--Sean

Sean,
My comments on your two bits.

In the first case, if users feel they must enter start and finish dates
then they are much better off using Excel. It is more user friendly and
they are not "fighting" with the built-in scheduling algorithm contained
in Project. It's a simple case of trying to force feed the wrong
application.

In the second case, Project may or may not be a good match for Agile
development. If it is used, I suggest setting up bite sized schedules
that last only as long as it takes to comes up with each iteration.
Doing any more is wasted time.

John

 

[davegb]

Dave,
I agree with you 100%. I had just such a case recently wherein a user
for some reason I didn't fully appreciate, wanted to use Project for
something it was not intended. They wanted my help. I tried to suggest
alternate applications and I also tried to explain how Project should be
used. They weren't interested. Since they were willing to pay me to help
them, I did. I find that sometimes doing some off-the-wall things like
that can open my perspective. It's called thinking outside the box.
Unfortunately I quickly forget to much of what I learn so I forget which
box I got out of :-(

With regard to the hammer screwdriver. You're up on the roof building
something. You have a small nail to set. All you have with you is your
hefty screwdriver - the hammer is back in your workshop down the ladder
and around the house. Are you going to set the nail with what you've got
or are you going to go down the ladder, around the house, get the
hammer, go back around the house and up the ladder to set that nail? To
each his own.

John

I've had similar experience to yours, John. Both here and with
clients, I've seen rather unusual implementations of Project that, in
that situation, ultimately, worked. Often to my surprise! Sometimes,
people come up with very clever workarounds that work very well.
That's one of the reasons I've stopped pushing so hard that it MUST be
used only as a CPM tool. It can do other things. That being said, most
of these elaborate implementations/workarounds cause more trouble than
the ones they were designed to circumvent, and limit the user's
ability to move further on with Project as the need arises. Abilities
such as Resource Leveling, Costing, etc. My job as a consultant is to
warn them. They get to make the final decision, of course. But I feel
ok helping them implement it their way as long as I've cautioned them
of the potential repercussions.

As for your big screwdriver analogy, my question is, "What the @#$ are
you doing up on that roof without a hammer!"

And yes, I still, occasionally, use screwdrivers as hammers, when
that's all there is available. But when I work on my car these days,
and I've only brought out a few tools because I didn't think I needed
the whole toolkit, and I realize I didn't bring the right one, I walk
back in the house and get the one I need. Saves a whole lot of
aggravation!

 

[davegb]

Sean,
My comments on your two bits.

In the first case, if users feel they must enter start and finish dates
then they are much better off using Excel. It is more user friendly and
they are not "fighting" with the built-in scheduling algorithm contained
in Project. It's a simple case of trying to force feed the wrong
application.

John,
I take a slightly different approach with these clients. I advise them
that if they feel they must enter a lot of dates, do the whole project
that way. The biggest schedule messes I've seen were when nearly every
task is constrained, then linked to others. When people try to mix
constraining everything with linking, Project becomes a morass of
scheduling messages! Not useful to anyone. I also tell them that their
schedule will no longer be dynamic, and every time something changes,
they'll have to redo the schedule from that point forward. Very few
persist in using a "fixed" model after I explain that.

In the second case, Project may or may not be a good match for Agile
development. If it is used, I suggest setting up bite sized schedules
that last only as long as it takes to comes up with each iteration.
Doing any more is wasted time.

John

 

[John]

I've had similar experience to yours, John. Both here and with
clients, I've seen rather unusual implementations of Project that, in
that situation, ultimately, worked. Often to my surprise! Sometimes,
people come up with very clever workarounds that work very well.
That's one of the reasons I've stopped pushing so hard that it MUST be
used only as a CPM tool. It can do other things. That being said, most
of these elaborate implementations/workarounds cause more trouble than
the ones they were designed to circumvent, and limit the user's
ability to move further on with Project as the need arises. Abilities
such as Resource Leveling, Costing, etc. My job as a consultant is to
warn them. They get to make the final decision, of course. But I feel
ok helping them implement it their way as long as I've cautioned them
of the potential repercussions.

As for your big screwdriver analogy, my question is, "What the @#$ are
you doing up on that roof without a hammer!"

And yes, I still, occasionally, use screwdrivers as hammers, when
that's all there is available. But when I work on my car these days,
and I've only brought out a few tools because I didn't think I needed
the whole toolkit, and I realize I didn't bring the right one, I walk
back in the house and get the one I need. Saves a whole lot of
aggravation!

Dave,
I think you answered the question. Sometimes you just don't bring all
the right tools to the job. Your initial thought is, and these are
famous last words, "The job isn't that hard, it will only take a few
minutes".

John

 

[John]

John,
I take a slightly different approach with these clients. I advise them
that if they feel they must enter a lot of dates, do the whole project
that way. The biggest schedule messes I've seen were when nearly every
task is constrained, then linked to others. When people try to mix
constraining everything with linking, Project becomes a morass of
scheduling messages! Not useful to anyone. I also tell them that their
schedule will no longer be dynamic, and every time something changes,
they'll have to redo the schedule from that point forward. Very few
persist in using a "fixed" model after I explain that.

Dave,
So your approach is to let them fall face first into the mud. After a
few episodes of that they soon realize that "hard" scheduling isn't such
a good idea. Yeah, I can buy that.

John

 

[Abhijit]

Wow, interesting debate. I kept me awakre at 3 AM
John & Davegb, you should co-author a book. I really mean it.
Scudder, thanks for generating ripples in the pond. About adding dates, I
just have one comment - as a closing comment.

Apologies this may be a good weekend read - slight long one. And
clarification, I am not MSP development team member, but I love MSP because
it earns me and my company handsomly for CCPM/TOC tool.

I have been on all sides of the table. First few years I was a mere
programmer, and had no table at all. Then I was thrown into project
management ocean barely with underwear (Project 97). One of our client had it
in contract that we should use MSP. So be it - management gurus mantra -
customer god. Since then I have learned many things hard way (as one of the
post mentioned - fall right on the face).

MSProject is yet another tool. Its beauty is its own grave. The flexibility
it gives at a decent price is nice to have. But it must be locally customized
(I do not mean programming here) to be used.

In last 3-5 years I have seen teams just using it for planning. When it
comes to execution, the move to excel. What rubbish. You immediately know,
the plan was either complex or inadequate.

Today very few people have patience. Things are wanted quick. 9 men - 9
women - Start dumping babies from tomorrow. And this reflects, how many
projects complete on time, with full scope, within budget and last but not
the least, within pre-defined quality. Just look at the Standish reports, and
no surprises. And what this reflects is individuals/organizations does not
make efforts to set the rules of games - how to tame a tool.

Now coming back to my previous statement about MSP --- Its beauty is its own
grave. Each project is unique. Its impossible to write a software that
confirms to PM competencies and simple / easy to use tool - remember
Heisenberg's Uncertanity Principle from quantum mechanics.

Hence its incumbent on the users of a generic tool like MSP to get it tames
to the PM competencies of the group / organization so that the tool can
enforce the process framework. But this does not happen.

Coming to the answering of posts, I agree with John that at times you can
just show a path.

And about adding date to tasks - some times needed for contractual
milestones (like I need truckload of beer on eve of 31st Dec - hard luck).

Thank you gentle persons. Appreciate your time for reading this post.

 

[greg]

I have a question. i am a novelist with fans around the world
(sci-fi/fantasy) and i wish to move my books intothe gamers realm. how or
who do i contact to get them into a game, and no i have no idea how to
program failed that in college
proff's quote" there are ppl who are bron programmers, then there are ones
who can learn, then there are people who are like you.)

if you read some of my work you will be vastly impressed with eldred and his
adventures to defeat Infinity(son of god and the universe) email me at
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Mike Glen]

Hi Scudder,

This newsgroup is specifically for matters dealing with developments within
Microsoft Project. I suggest you try to find a more appropriate newsgroup.

Mike Glen
Project MVP