guidance for an Access 2003 runtime install on citrix pm?

[mat]

A project that was going to be installed on win2003 TS with Access
retail will instead be installed using the Access 2003 runtime on
Citrix. I've used the sagekey script for several installs but not too
many times on TS and never on Citrix. It's a sudden change and they've
given me little time to adapt.

The app uses sql server 2005 for the data side and we'll configure odbc
for that. The app will be distributed as an mde.

The server will be a VM, and there will be no other copies of Access
installed (ie no access retail installs on this virtual box).

I have little experience with the Access 2007 runtime but I think it
might 'run' this app also? If it stripped the toolbars it's be a hard
switch to make. Also I may not need to use the sagekey script; it's been
useful for installs in more mixed environments, where other copies of
Access may be installed, but that condition won't arise here. I just
mean to say, this does not have to be Access 2003 runtime plus sagekey;
it just needs to work with a minimum of fuss.

All of my apps utilize distinct copies of the mdb/mde for each user. I
have a good system worked out for automated updates, so it's easy to
distribute updates to the front end file. I know Tony Toews Auto FE
Updater has some smarts about Citrix, but there is little detailed info
on the site about what that might mean. I'd not be eager to switch out
my FE updating system for Tony's, which I've tried and like, but prefer
my own.

I don't have any sustantial recent exposure to citrix. They will be
using presentation manager (I think one ver back from current PM), so
the app will be 'served', and the users won't see a regular RD desktop
on the server. I am not sure what measures I need to take to make the
install work well with citrix PM.

I'm also not sure what is the most foolproof approach to take as far as
installation directories...this may be related to Citrix too. This is
what I am guessing at the moment, but would appreciate any input.

An admin will want to install the first instance of the application;
that will of course include the Access 2003 runtime.

The other users need to get a dedicated copy of the front end mde and
have citrix wired up to offer that as a published application. Does that
mean that citrix creates a copy of the mde for each user? I've read that
bat files are involved with citrix Access installs that use dedicated
front ends but have no detail; I suppose that's to create a distinct
copy of the mde? Does one use the my docs folder, or the local settings
\application data folder? The user needs full perms on that dir of
course.

I have read around on this topic and there is little published. Tony's
site is good, but the 'excellend article' it refs is very old, and
Tony's site is thin on details of the kind I need, esp re runtime and
citrix.

 

[Albert D. Kallal]

I have little experience with the Access 2007 runtime but I think it
might 'run' this app also?

Well it might work, on the other hand if you spend a couple years developing
and testing the product in access 2003, it would be a pretty big risk to
deploy it under access 2007 when you not been developing with access 2007.
You will not find out about any little quirks or problems that one tends to
find with a particular version of a product until you deployed and let your
users be the guinea pigs. So you could do this, but I don't think I would do
it unless one had been using access 2007 for a good part of the developing
and testing of the application. I mean I've converted huge applications from
access 97 to access 2003, and it was very few if any problems However there
was a couple minor little things that had to be tweaked and fixed when I
upgraded. If I had been developing in access 2003 all long, then those
little probems and tweaks and fixes would not have to have been done.

So as a general rule, I would not develop in one version, and deploy under
another version that was not the main version I had been working with for
good amount of time.

I'm also not sure what is the most foolproof approach to take as far as
installation directories...this may be related to Citrix too. This is
what I am guessing at the moment, but would appreciate any input.

Well I would use "my documents" or some other user folder that's not shared
between all the users.

An admin will want to install the first instance of the application;
that will of course include the Access 2003 runtime.

The above is a possible. On the other hand for years I've always install the
access 2003 runtime as a completely separate install from that of my
applications. There's many advantages to this such as if the user already
has an runtime (or full version) installed then you don't have to install
that runtime do you? (and this also means that your application delivery is
going to be very much smaller because it doesn't have the runtime as part of
the install).

The other advantages once you've got a good install system for new versions
of your front end you can use that same install system over and over for
additional updates that will no doubt happen over the lifetime of the
product. In other words once you build and designed to some kind of update
system, you use this one's for the initial install, and each additional
updates that you do. In other words you get double duty out of your
investment of time to build some kind of update. If you tie your initial
application install to the runtime, then you have to maintain two install
systems, one for the initial install, and one for additional updates. So it
makes sense to separate this process anyway.

The other users need to get a dedicated copy of the front end mde and
have citrix wired up to offer that as a published application. Does that
mean that citrix creates a copy of the mde for each user?

In the first sentence you just said each user gets their own own copy, now
you're saying that citrix is going to make a copy for each user? (this makes
no sense at all).

Think of each user having their own word document, or their own excel
document, citrix is not all of a sudden going to start making copies of this
stuff is it? Remember you don't really install your front end appliaton
part. You simply **C O P Y ** it to the traget machine and hope that there
is a full version of access, or an access runtime. If you install a runtime
on a target machine, you can copy a dozen access files to the target machine
and clicking on any one of them will simply launch the access runtime for
you.

So there's never been really a special connection between your front ends
and the runtime with the exception that you need something to run your
application with! You just simply copy your access application to the target
machine and then double click on it to run it. This will work for the
runtime addition, and works for the full addition. There is no difference in
how this works. once that file associations is set to access, the runtime
are full dish and doesn't make any difference is how you launch your
application, you just simply double click on it.

The only additional piece of information you need here is to ensure that
when users are running your application that each user has our own copy the
front end. This does not change under citrix or terminal services, and once
again each user gets their own copy the front end. End of story End of
problem.

I've read that
bat files are involved with citrix Access installs that use dedicated
front ends but have no detail;

I've never heard anything to the above. You can have some batch files at
startup to copy of fresh copy the front end to the local users directory
from some shared folder (I suspect that that was what the above was talking
about). Again using terminal services, citrix, or standard computer on your
local office network is not going to change the situation one bit, simply
ensure that each user has their own copy of the front end and you should be
OK.

Does one use the my docs folder, or the local settings
application data folder?

You can use whichever one you prefer, as I said the only requirement here is
to ensure that each user has a separate copy of the front end, after that
whatever you do is up to your own wishes.

So what you need to do here is make sure that the access runtime is
installed on that computer, and then start deploying your front ends to each
users separate folder. The installing of your front ends, and installing of
the runtime should always be a separate process, even when you're deploying
to stand alone single user's computer or when using systems like terminal
services citrix.

 

[mat]

I experimented with A2007 and no it's not going to work. I had hoped
that it might seamlessly run the A2003 db as an A2003 db, but of course
it does not. If it had been able to 'do' A2003 well, and if it was a
suprior runtime for some reason (and I have no idea if that's true or
not), it might have been a useful option. I mainly meant to indicate
that I was open to all options. I'd never consider trying a quick
converstion to A2007, that would be problematic.

I think you misunderstood what I meant about citrix making a copy; at
least I can't make sense of your reply to what I wrote <g>. All I was
askiing was, can citrix pm be configured to handle the distribution of
distinct front end copies of the app. Nothing contradictory about what I
wrote about distinct front ends; just, what are the options for getting
each user a copy? I don't know what PM can do; if it can contribute
there.

Tony Toews site and the AutoFEUpdater util mentions that it can be
configured to create com or bat files for use with a citrix deployment.
His util is an exe so I can't see what it does in code, and don't have a
copy of citirx pm make a test install with to see what it does. Probably
it just creates a copy for each new user.

I already have a very robust update distribution system, that's why I've
not really considered using Tony's system, even though the AutoFEUpdater
looks pretty good.

I am curious; how does one install the A2003 runtime, sans any app? I
can't see anything wrong with that approach. I've always users either
the standard MS tool for packaging Access apps in a runtime, or sagekey.

The kind of thing that puzzles me is can I make use of the default user
profile? If I somehow 'installed' the front end into the default user
profile, probably under application data, it'd be added to each new
user's profile. That'd be cool, I think. Then the citrix admin would be
able to publish the app via PM, using the distinct copy for each user.
Or at least that'd my conjecture. Would they be able to do that?

Thanks for your input.

 

[Tony Toews [MVP]]

Tony Toews site and the AutoFEUpdater util mentions that it can be
configured to create com or bat files for use with a citrix deployment.
His util is an exe so I can't see what it does in code, and don't have a
copy of citirx pm make a test install with to see what it does. Probably
it just creates a copy for each new user.

Correct. And I support using the Application Data folder as a
variable in determining where the FE resides. For example
%APPDATA%\Your App would expand to C:\Documents and
Settings\ttoews\Application Data\Your App on a Windows 2003 server.

I am curious; how does one install the A2003 runtime, sans any app? I
can't see anything wrong with that approach.

I got it working in that fashion with nothing special.

The kind of thing that puzzles me is can I make use of the default user
profile? If I somehow 'installed' the front end into the default user
profile, probably under application data, it'd be added to each new
user's profile.

No, that's not how it works. Copying files to AppData doesn't do
anything else. You would need to create the Program Files or
Desktop shortcuts yourself.

That'd be cool, I think. Then the citrix admin would be
able to publish the app via PM, using the distinct copy for each user.
Or at least that'd my conjecture. Would they be able to do that?

I don't know how Citrix works these days but about four or five years
ago I had to create a one line .CMD file which Citrix executed to
start the Auto FE Updater running which in turn did it's thing.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/

 

[Albert D. Kallal]

I am curious; how does one install the A2003 runtime, sans any app?

You just simply use the package wizard and only include a "readme.txt" file
of some sorts. You don't actually have to include a mde file with the
package wizard.

Furthermore, you also just take the access runtime and click on that to
start an install (in other words, you don't even have to use the package
wizard). the runtime package itself is a standard msi package. The package
wizard simply makes (includes) a copy of the runtime msi and simply chains
in your package wizard results also. So you don't even have to use the
package wizard here, but if you do, then simply just include a readme.txt
file and not include your application...

 

[Albert D. Kallal]

That used to be a violation of the runtime license. It was specified
that the runtime installer was only to be used to install your
distributed app. Now that the 2007 runtime has no license requirements
the point might be moot, but I thought that was what the rules were for
the older ones.

Yes thanks for pointing out, I do believe you are correct on this issue. Of
course access 2007 does have a separate download for the runtime.

However, previous versions as you point out one is supposed to use the
package wizard to distribute the runtime. I betting my suggestion to include
a readme file likely makes the runtime distribution legal. I suppose to be
really sure one can choose to include a tiny readme.mdb file that displays
perhaps your program copyright info when clicked on.

 

[mat]

No, that's not how it works. Copying files to AppData doesn't do
anything else. You would need to create the Program Files or
Desktop shortcuts yourself.

I'm not sure you understood what I was saying. It seems that if a copy
of the app folder and mdb/mde are put into the default users application
data folder, any new users get a copy of the front end installed into
their profile. I'd imagine that the same would be true for shortcuts to
the app.

Later when new versions of the app are put on the server my front end
update system would take over getting new mdb/mde to each user.

I am just not sure if that's how 'default user' profile is meant to be
used, but it sure seems like what it's intended for. I do know know of
any slick way to 'install' the first iteration of the app into 'default
user'; and this approach does not help any user who already has a login
account on the server.

Can the package wizard be set up to install to the default user profile?

There is another side to this which I don't know much about. All my what
I wrote above depends on the user profile remaining local to that
TS/Citrix server. I will have to make sure that they don't use roaming
profiles or whatever they're called. Just mentioning because it's
another area that might trip things up, if anyone wants to suggest
anything re that.

Actually, I don't think these users really need to have shortcuts on
desktop etc; citrix pm should just publish the mdb/mde.

On the Citrix PM side, I suppose it's straightforward for the admin
configure to publish the app mdb/mde in each users' app data?

 

[Tony Toews [MVP]]

I'm not sure you understood what I was saying. It seems that if a copy
of the app folder and mdb/mde are put into the default users application
data folder, any new users get a copy of the front end installed into
their profile. I'd imagine that the same would be true for shortcuts to
the app.

Ah, I missed the default user profile stuff. Now my biggest question
though is will each user get their own copy of the files or are they
going to share the file? I strongly suspect that would be shared
files.

Can the package wizard be set up to install to the default user profile?

I can't recall now.

There is another side to this which I don't know much about. All my what
I wrote above depends on the user profile remaining local to that
TS/Citrix server. I will have to make sure that they don't use roaming
profiles or whatever they're called. Just mentioning because it's
another area that might trip things up, if anyone wants to suggest
anything re that.

Oh yeah, that was a problem too. If the Access FE is kept on their
local profile 1,000 kms away from the TS then that's quite useless.
Which is one reason the client kept the FEs on the file server in
individual folders by user.

Actually, I don't think these users really need to have shortcuts on
desktop etc; citrix pm should just publish the mdb/mde.

I don't know enough about how Citrix works these days.

On the Citrix PM side, I suppose it's straightforward for the admin
configure to publish the app mdb/mde in each users' app data?

I found that I had to create a one line .cmd file which the IT staff
then did something with Citrix. What they all did I don't know.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/

 

[mat]

I know that the default profile give a unique copy to each new user. The
roaming profile thing could make a mess of that, as far as an access app
goes but I think I can work that out with the network admin.

Thanks for your input on this, and everyone else too.

 

[aaron.kempf]

it's just plain stupid to use a terminal server-- just because Jet
doesn't work over most networks in the real world.

that has got to be the most ridiclous thing I've ever read, in my
entire life.

Move to Access Data Projects, and then you can let people work using
the horsepower of their home PC-- so in other words-- things run
faster _AND_ its' cheaper?

What kindof database architect do you think that you are?

If Jet doesn't work over your network, the move to SQL Server, not
citrix!!
If Jet doesn't work over your network, the move to SQL Server, not
citrix!!
If Jet doesn't work over your network, the move to SQL Server, not
citrix!!
If Jet doesn't work over your network, the move to SQL Server, not
citrix!!
If Jet doesn't work over your network, the move to SQL Server, not
citrix!!

 

[Tony Toews [MVP]]

Please ignore Aaron's reply as he is monomaniacal on the subject of
ADPs and SQL Server.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/

 

[mat]

Please ignore Aaron's reply as he is monomaniacal on the subject of
ADPs and SQL Server.

Tony

I know. I'm not sure if Aaron really read the thread anyways, the db I
am writing about has a sql server backend, not jet.

I have some experience with using odbc to sql server over wan. I've not
really tried it with adp. It'd be fine with me if adp works well to
remote locations over wan/vpn. In fact I'd love to hear more about that,
if that's what aaron was pointing at, from anyone.

TS/2x/Citrix is pretty good though, certainly they remain as options.
This particular app is 90% done and it's not going to be converted to an
adp at this point.

 

[Tony Toews [MVP]]

This particular app is 90% done

Which means it will take 50% of the effort. <smile>

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/