How thorough is "Remove Office"?

[patrick j]

Hi

I'm looking forward to the release of Mac Office 2008. Prior to the
installation of 2008 I'm quite keen on completely removing all aspects of
2004 from my Mac.

The reason for this desire for a "clean slate" is that Office 2004 for me
has increasingly had minor but irritating problems, in particular with
Word. What I really don't want is my installation of Office 2008 to inherit
them.

There is a handy "Remove Office" program in the Microsoft Office 2004
application folder. I wonder how thorough "Remove Office" is? Will it
totally eradicate 2004 from my Mac or will it just take out the obvious
stuff?

If "Remove Office" is not thorough I'd be grateful if someone would be able
to tell me the files to remove myself to totally eradicate Office 2004,
particularly those for Word. It might be there's a list somewhere on the
web, but despite some googling on my behalf I haven't been able to locate
it.

Thank you for assistance you can give.

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Patrick -

Yes, Remove Office is quite thorough, but you could always run it a second
time just to be sure

However, I wouldn't be so hasty as to remove 2004 just yet - the two will
run just fine side-by-side. I would be concerned about the "problems" you've
had with '04 & concentrate on getting them resolved. It isn't so much that
2008 will inherit them from 2004, but whatever it is that's causing 2004 to
exhibit them may still go on to effect 2008 in a similar fashion.

Those problems may be symptomatic of problems elsewhere on your Mac - such
as with OS X itself. If you care to detail the issues I'm sure someone will
be more than happy to help you resolve them.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Michel Bintener]

Hi Patrick,

there's no need to remove Office 2004 yourself; if you have a look at
the following article on Ars Technica, which describes the installation
process, you will see that the installer removes earlier versions of
Office for you:

<http://arstechnica.com/reviews/apps/mac-office-2008-review.ars>

By the way, a single post in microsoft.public.mac.office would have
sufficed, as this issue does not concern Word exclusively; you might
also want to know that microsoft.public.office.mac is no longer being
used, so be sure to use the other one instead!

Hope this helps!

--
Michel Bintener
Microsoft MVP
Office:Mac (Entourage & Word)

***Always reply to the newsgroup.***

 

[patrick j]

Hi Bob

I'm following up in microsoft.public.mac.office.word because the issues to
resolve are all in Word.

I think that you are probably right and that having a go at sorting them
out is probably better than hoping the update will do this. Knowledge is
power after all

Now that I've given it consideration the problems aren't very big.

I have Office Mac 2004 on my Intel iMac, so it is running on Rosetta of
course.

The biggest nuisance with Word is that it won't remember changes I make to
the toolbar positioning. This sounds like a very minor matter but it so
happens that the toolbar positioning Word wishes to remember is a very
awkward arrangement I created months ago in a moment of madness. My copy of
Word seems have decided it really likes that layout and so every time I
launch Word the toolbars are in that position. I then put them the way I
want them each time but Word never remembers that. Even if Word only
remembered the default layout, which is close to how I'd like them, then
that would be okay. However Word actually only wants to remember this very
awkward layout

The other issue I have is that Word never quits in a dignified manner. I
takes ages and then suddenly disappears leaving me with a "Word has
unexpected quit" type of message.

I do get files left in the trash quite often which look like they come from
Word in some way. These are "temporary" files of various sorts which look
like they have been spat out as a result of some inner drama to which I am
not privy.

I'd be grateful for any thoughts on these issues.

Thank you.

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Patrick:

1) You very definitely will NOT want to remove 2004 when you add Office
2008 to your computer. Users will continue to need both versions to have
full compatibility with PC Office and to have full feature availability.

2) So you will need to be careful not to allow the installer to remove the
2004 Production version of Office during 2008 installation. You can and
should encourage it to remove any other version it finds

3) The Remover is remarkably thorough, if the files are in their expected
locations. It leaves only the documents you create.

4) The toolbar and quitting problems are due to corrupted file: preferences
and the Normal template. Run the Remover to get the preferences out, an
THEN make sure you remove the Normal template before re-installing.

If you re-install, 2004 will adopt the existing Normal template if it can
find it, perpetuating the problem. 2008 will attempt to build its
Normal.dotm from the Normal.dot template if it can find it. This can lead
to serious weirdness.

So before installing 2008, get rid of the Normal Template unless you are
sure that it is in good condition and contains valuable stuff that you want
to keep.

Now: Here is a very serious caution: AFTER installing 2008, GET RID OF the
2004 Normal. The best thing to do is to delete it. But you could move it
to a different location, then tell only Word 2004 where it is.

If you do not do that, each time you cause 2008 to replace its Normal.dotm
(which you will do quite frequently) it will RE-IMPORT the settings from the
2004 Normal.dot. If there is anything you don't want in the 2004 file, like
Chucky it will be baaaak every time you do anything to 2008's Normal. You
will end up very confused

Hope this helps

Hi Bob

I'm following up in microsoft.public.mac.office.word because the issues to
resolve are all in Word.

I think that you are probably right and that having a go at sorting them
out is probably better than hoping the update will do this. Knowledge is
power after all

Now that I've given it consideration the problems aren't very big.

I have Office Mac 2004 on my Intel iMac, so it is running on Rosetta of
course.

The biggest nuisance with Word is that it won't remember changes I make to
the toolbar positioning. This sounds like a very minor matter but it so
happens that the toolbar positioning Word wishes to remember is a very
awkward arrangement I created months ago in a moment of madness. My copy of
Word seems have decided it really likes that layout and so every time I
launch Word the toolbars are in that position. I then put them the way I
want them each time but Word never remembers that. Even if Word only
remembered the default layout, which is close to how I'd like them, then
that would be okay. However Word actually only wants to remember this very
awkward layout

The other issue I have is that Word never quits in a dignified manner. I
takes ages and then suddenly disappears leaving me with a "Word has
unexpected quit" type of message.

I do get files left in the trash quite often which look like they come from
Word in some way. These are "temporary" files of various sorts which look
like they have been spat out as a result of some inner drama to which I am
not privy.

I'd be grateful for any thoughts on these issues.

Thank you.

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Diane Ross]

However, I wouldn't be so hasty as to remove 2004 just yet - the two will
run just fine side-by-side. I would be concerned about the "problems" you've
had with '04 & concentrate on getting them resolved. It isn't so much that
2008 will inherit them from 2004, but whatever it is that's causing 2004 to
exhibit them may still go on to effect 2008 in a similar fashion.

Those problems may be symptomatic of problems elsewhere on your Mac - such
as with OS X itself. If you care to detail the issues I'm sure someone will
be more than happy to help you resolve them.

Office uses files that were installed by Apple. If these files are corrupt
or damaged the problems will continue. That's one of the reasons we often
suggest using the combo Apple updaters. The combo updaters go back and
rewrite the older files where an incremental updater only rewrites the new
files. For full details on using the combo vs. incremental see:

Apple Combo Updater and Entourage
<http://www.entourage.mvps.org/troubleshoot/combo.html>

This same concept applies to installing Leopard. There are 3 types of
installs:

1. Upgrade Mac OS X (the default upgrade method)*
2. Archive and Install
3. Erase and Install

* Just because it's the default doesn't mean it's the best option.

This page describes what each method does:

Options to Install Leopard
<http://www.entourage.mvps.org/faq_topic/leo_options.html>

 

[patrick j]

Hello John

Your solution has worked

It was very simple. All I had to do was use "Remove Office" to get rid of
preference files and then remove "Normal.dot" before launching Word.

Everything is now behaving itself. Word quits just fine and seems to
remember changes to toolbar locations.

I am keeping your posting so that when I come to install 2008 I will have
it to hand.

Thank you.

 

[patrick j]

3) The Remover is remarkably thorough, if the files are in their expected
locations. It leaves only the documents you create.

4) The toolbar and quitting problems are due to corrupted file: preferences
and the Normal template. Run the Remover to get the preferences out, an
THEN make sure you remove the Normal template before re-installing.

Hi John

Further to my neighbouring posting yesterday I've discovered that the
problem has returned

After using the Remove Office application to get rid of preference files
and then taking out the Normal.dot file myself Word behaved beautifully for
the rest of the day. I created new preferences, re-created the simple
custom toolbar I use etc etc. Then I was able to quit Word and it quit as
it should, launch it and it was all fine.

At the end of the day yesterday I noticed that I could not quit Word, I had
to Force Quit, which was worrying. So this morning I start up Word and
problems have returned.

It would seem that it has not remembered my preferences, such as
measurement units "inches" and that kind of thing. It has retained my small
custom toolbar. There are a number of Word related files in the trash which
presumably were output by the "Force Quit" last night.

It is true that my use of Word at present is relentless and intense. I'm
writing two very significant things against a deadline and this means it is
being used 10 hours a day relentlessly. Usually I don't use Word that much,
just to write letters etc. and keep notes.

So, I'm wondering if you have any suggestions?

I had thought of re-installing Word 2004 but if I recall correctly the
installation is just to run the application, I think it "self-installs".

It is the only application on my computer which misbehaves. I am very much
a multi-media person and I've got many large programs which behave
flawlessly.

I do have an Intel iMac so of course Word runs in Rosetta.

The OS is 10.5.1.

Apple's Disk Utility suggests a totally clean bill of health.

OS updates are always done using the combo updater version from the
web-site.

However I think Word 2004 was updated using the Microsoft online updater if
I recall correctly, it was a long time ago that the program was updated.

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Patrick:

I am not convinced that there is a problem this time

I think you may have had a pending change to the template. When you quit,
it would have tried to prompt you to save the template.

If you missed the prompt, and force-quit, you would have failed to save the
template and thus failed to save your settings.

This time, quit Word and re-name the Normal template.

Re-start Word, and quit it again. If it prompts you to save the Normal
template it will create, say "Yes".

Re-open Word, and open the Organiser. (It's on the Format>Style... Menu...)
Use the organiser to copy your custom toolbar from the renamed template to
the new one.

Depending on what you did to create your toolbar, it is not unusual to
corrupt the normal template when playing with toolbars. I have done it lots
of times

By allowing Word to create and forcing it to save a pristine normal, then
copying your toolbar back from the bad one, hopefully you will end up with
your custom toolbar available in a pristine Normal template and all will be
well.

Hope this helps

Hi John

Further to my neighbouring posting yesterday I've discovered that the
problem has returned

After using the Remove Office application to get rid of preference files
and then taking out the Normal.dot file myself Word behaved beautifully for
the rest of the day. I created new preferences, re-created the simple
custom toolbar I use etc etc. Then I was able to quit Word and it quit as
it should, launch it and it was all fine.

At the end of the day yesterday I noticed that I could not quit Word, I had
to Force Quit, which was worrying. So this morning I start up Word and
problems have returned.

It would seem that it has not remembered my preferences, such as
measurement units "inches" and that kind of thing. It has retained my small
custom toolbar. There are a number of Word related files in the trash which
presumably were output by the "Force Quit" last night.

It is true that my use of Word at present is relentless and intense. I'm
writing two very significant things against a deadline and this means it is
being used 10 hours a day relentlessly. Usually I don't use Word that much,
just to write letters etc. and keep notes.

So, I'm wondering if you have any suggestions?

I had thought of re-installing Word 2004 but if I recall correctly the
installation is just to run the application, I think it "self-installs".

It is the only application on my computer which misbehaves. I am very much
a multi-media person and I've got many large programs which behave
flawlessly.

I do have an Intel iMac so of course Word runs in Rosetta.

The OS is 10.5.1.

Apple's Disk Utility suggests a totally clean bill of health.

OS updates are always done using the combo updater version from the
web-site.

However I think Word 2004 was updated using the Microsoft online updater if
I recall correctly, it was a long time ago that the program was updated.

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Nhulunbuy, Northern Territory, Australia
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[patrick j]

Hello John

You are quite right I think. I did not have a problem

My guess is that it was that which you've described. However when I just
launched Word again it was fine and has continued to be fine.

I've been so busy I did not get a chance to read your reply to my posting
until today. However I have saved it so that I will know about it if I do
this again.

This method you've described means I won't have to re-create the custom
toolbar of course which will be very useful.


Patrick

 

[Clive Huggan]

On 11/1/08 1:40 AM, in article
(e-mail address removed), "patrick j"

This method you've described means I won't have to re-create the custom
toolbar of course which will be very useful.

<snip>

Now you've fixed the problem, Patrick, and since you're into custom
toolbars, you might be interested in some comments on saving any
customizations of the *default* Word toolbars so that when the Normal
template corrupts you don't have to rebuild them. See page 46 et seq. in
some notes on the way I use Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word to Your
Will", which are available as a free download from the Word MVPs' website
(http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html).

[Note: "Bend Word to your will" is designed to be used electronically and
most subjects are self-contained dictionary-style entries. If you decide to
read more widely than the item I've referred to, it's important to read the
front end of the document -- especially pages 3 and 5 -- so you can select
some Word settings that will allow you to use the document effectively.]

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from North America and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Patrick:

It's a good idea to save this one (or commit it to memory...) those of us
who like to fiddle with our toolbars need to get used to Normal templates
dying

Cheers

Hello John

You are quite right I think. I did not have a problem

My guess is that it was that which you've described. However when I just
launched Word again it was fine and has continued to be fine.

I've been so busy I did not get a chance to read your reply to my posting
until today. However I have saved it so that I will know about it if I do
this again.

This method you've described means I won't have to re-create the custom
toolbar of course which will be very useful.


Patrick

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Nhulunbuy, Northern Territory, Australia
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Clive Huggan]

Patrick,

You just need to realize that "fiddle" may have several meanings.

John McGhie fiddling is reminiscent of a combination of (a) the beloved
Yehudi Menuhin and (b) Nero on an incendiary night in ancient Rome.

My fiddling is a few pleasant-enough chords, interspersed by some
short-lived squawks, that my 5-year-old grand-daughter produces on her
little new violin.

Despite modifying toolbars hugely, and adding all sorts of other things in
the Normal template, I have not seen it corrupt in at least five years
(either that or my memory is really going).

[Hmm, I know already what m'learned colleague mcg is going to say...]

Clive Huggan
============

 

[Sable Cantus]

However, I wouldn't be so hasty as to remove 2004 just yet - the two will
run just fine side-by-side. I would be concerned about the "problems" you've
had with '04 & concentrate on getting them resolved. It isn't so much that

I agree with Patrick and I want a clean slate. When I upgrade my labs to
'08 I will do it on a new build of the OS entirely. We've had dozens of
problems that MS has not been able to address over the last few years mostly
related to the mysterious "corrupted fonts" issue.

2008 will inherit them from 2004, but whatever it is that's causing 2004 to
exhibit them may still go on to effect 2008 in a similar fashion.

I'll be testing this specifically: Will a machine that has the mysterious
issues in '04 have the same issues in '08. How does '08 handle system and
user fonts? There never was an explanation as to why these issues occurred
on '04 and I will not be very happy if I have to continue supporting mystery
issues for the next four years.

Those problems may be symptomatic of problems elsewhere on your Mac - such
as with OS X itself. If you care to detail the issues I'm sure someone will
be more than happy to help you resolve them.

Time and time again the issues are only office 2004. Try it yourself. Do a
search for "corrupt fonts" and you will find all kinds of "tips" and
"workarounds" such as turning off the FontCacheTool (700) or changing MS
permissions, or scripting a removal of caches at each login, etc.

Sable

 

[Diane Ross]

How does '08 handle system and
user fonts?

Office 2008 uses a different method for fonts and many fonts are new
versions. Office 2008 will install fonts to the /Library/Fonts/Microsoft
folder. By being at the root, then all users on the machine have access to
them and you don't get Office 2008 putting multiple copies on the machine
for each user.

The installer will scour /Library/Fonts/ and ~/Library/Fonts/ for fonts with
the same name and move them to /Library/Disabled Fonts/ or
~/Library/Disabled Fonts/ depending on where they were found.

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Sable:

I agree with Patrick and I want a clean slate.

Keep Office 2004 Trust us on this, you WILL need it. You would be
surprised how many VBA-enabled widgets you have on your network. In Office
2004 they will work. In Office 2008 ‹ they just won't.

When I upgrade my labs to
'08 I will do it on a new build of the OS entirely.

That's a really good strategy. But put Office 2004 on it as well

I'll be testing this specifically: Will a machine that has the mysterious
issues in '04 have the same issues in '08.

No. It may have "different" mysterious issues, however. Generally, "If it
runs clean in 2004, and you do not allow it to import anything from 2004 to
2008, it will run clean in 2008."

Since you are going to put a new build on, install 2008 FIRST, then 2004, so
it can't import anything.

How does '08 handle system and
user fonts? There never was an explanation as to why these issues occurred
on '04 and I will not be very happy if I have to continue supporting mystery
issues for the next four years.

Font handling is a lot smarter. Office 2008 expects everything to be in the
System font folder. It creates its own subfolder there, and attempts to
install everything it needs in that folder.

It moves anything it thinks it is going to have problems with into the
"Disabled" folder.

Users can install "specials" in the user font hierarchies if they so wish.

For a full discussion of this, read the Admin Guide. Hint: Read it
"online". Currently, it's updating regularly
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/itpros/default.mspx

Time and time again the issues are only office 2004. Try it yourself. Do a
search for "corrupt fonts" and you will find all kinds of "tips" and
"workarounds" such as turning off the FontCacheTool (700) or changing MS
permissions, or scripting a removal of caches at each login, etc.

THOSE issues have now been solved We have a whole brand new set of font
issues {sob!}.

Basically: Some OTF fonts are playing up. There is a nasty issue with
ligatures in OS 10.5 (there's a patch on the way for that) and some very
unusual fonts for non-roman scripts are refusing to appear in the font menu.

I am not sure about the OTF issue, they haven't found the cause of that one
yet. But the other two would seem to be simple fixes that should be in the
first service pack.

Cheers

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Nhulunbuy, Northern Territory, Australia
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Diane Ross]

That's a really good strategy. But put Office 2004 on it as well

Just be aware that you should install 2004 first. Entourage 2008 moves fonts
to a different location disabling the older 2004 fonts. If you install 2004
AFTER 2004 it will just reinstall them.

Office 2008 Font Install:

Office 2008 uses a different method for fonts and many fonts are new
versions. Office 2008 will install fonts to the /Library/Fonts/Microsoft
folder. By being at the root, then all users on the machine have access to
them and you don't get Office 2008 putting multiple copies on the machine
for each user.

The installer will scour /Library/Fonts/ and ~/Library/Fonts/ for fonts with
the same name and move them to /Library/Disabled Fonts/ or
~/Library/Disabled Fonts/ depending on where they were found.