How to group clips and drawing elements?

[Michael Moser]

I wanted to document all steps to install a larger program package using
OneNote by taking "clips" (i.e. partial screenshots) and adding red circles
around stuff that I had selected or entered.

This worked at first quite nice. However, the clips and the drawing elements
(ovals) seem to be on different "layers" (or whatever). When I later insert
something on that page above, all the screenshots get pushed down (which is
what I want and expect) but the red ovals stay where they were and hence now
highlight wrong positions and my note thus becomes complete garbage.

How can I "merge" or group the images/clips with the drawing elements so
that they stick together?

Michael

 

[Bernd]

-------- Original-Nachricht --------

I wanted to document all steps to install a larger program package using
OneNote by taking "clips" (i.e. partial screenshots) and adding red
circles around stuff that I had selected or entered.

This worked at first quite nice. However, the clips and the drawing
elements (ovals) seem to be on different "layers" (or whatever). When I
later insert something on that page above, all the screenshots get
pushed down (which is what I want and expect) but the red ovals stay
where they were and hence now highlight wrong positions and my note thus
becomes complete garbage.

How can I "merge" or group the images/clips with the drawing elements so
that they stick together?

Michael

1. It's one of the real annoyances in ON that you cannot group items on
a page.
2. But you can avoid your problem by using the "(Insert or Remove Extra
Writing Space" button from the Drawing Toolbar.

Bernd

 

[mikeatdsc]

Michael

I have the EXACT same issue because I do that very same thing all the time. I document user interface bugs and data validity problems in that same manner. However it is irritating if I have to go back and modify something higher up in the document because all of the graphical elements get messed up. I personally think it is a bug but I am very interested to see if anyone knows of a work-around for this problem. Maybe it will be fixed in the 2010 version?

Mik

 

[mikeatdsc]

-- sorry the signature did not post.

Mike Moore
Daytona State College
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Bernd]

1. It's one of the real annoyances in ON that you cannot group items on
a page.
2. But you can avoid your problem by using the "(Insert or Remove Extra
Writing Space" button from the Drawing Toolbar.

Bernd

P.S.:

1. As an alternative you can use Insert -> Extra Writing Space
2. Still no grouping in ON 2010

Bernd

 

[Rainald Taesler]

I have the EXACT same issue because I do that very same thing all the
time. I document user interface bugs and data validity problems in
that same manner. However it is irritating if I have to go back and
modify something higher up in the document because all of the
graphical elements get messed up. I personally think it is a bug but
I am very interested to see if anyone knows of a work-around for this
problem. Maybe it will be fixed in the 2010 version??

No, it's not a bug.
Just a *missing*feature* which would urgently ne needed.

ON would need anchoring/grouping of objects. This has been requested and
discussed in the early Beta of ON2007 already.
Although it's the most seriously missing feature it has not taken up by
the developers (who set other priorities) and so unfortunately nothing
has changed in so far in ON2010. We have to wait for at least Office15
{siiigh}.

As much as love ON and as much as I use it (the # 1 of all apps in my
systems, I have given up the idea of commenting inside ON (be it images
or PDFs).
For images I use SnagIt[1] which has everything needed for taking
screenshots and editing/manipulating images and collect the results in
ON.
For PDFs I use the PDFAnnotator[2] and keep the commented files outside
ON with links in the respective notebooks.

Really sad that I have no better news nor suggestions.

Rainald
[1] http://www.techsmith.com/screen-capture.asp
[2] http://ograhl.com/en/pdfannotator/

 

[JohnforAmerica]

I'll admit this isn't the most sophisticated solution, but it has worked for
me:

I had a project where I wanted to have 8-10 "thought bubbles" that I wanted
to physically manipulate. So naturally I crew the circles/ovals, then typed
in/on them. If the text overran the circle, I either increased the size of
the circle or decreased the text size. However, once these were done, you
can imagine how bad it would SUCK to try to capture ONLY the items you wanted
with the lasso and manipulate them. So instead, after I created each item, I
took a snapshot with <win>+<s>, pasted the new one next to the old item, then
erased the original "bubble" made up of two items.

Essentially, I often find myself assembling things how I like them using
multiple containers and "levels", then just taking a snapshot of the
assembled beauty (monstrosity) and using it instead.

Obviously this doesn't work if you need the text in the shape to be
editable, but at that point, you could always just put a new container over
the old text. I just think this method is particularly helpful when the
primary goal is assembling and manipulating objects for the sake of
organization. You can always do a final edit before you print, publish, or
send!

Hope that's helpful!

John

 

[Michael Moser]

ON would need anchoring/grouping of objects. This has been requested and
discussed in the early Beta of ON2007 already.
Although it's the most seriously missing feature it has not taken up by
the developers (who set other priorities) and so unfortunately nothing
has changed in so far in ON2010. We have to wait for at least Office15
{siiigh}.

So, apparently the same story as with other badly missing features, that
have been requested over and over again...

I wonder why MS takes the effort to announce beta versions of Office
products trying to encourage people to use and comment on it, if they then
don't listen anyway. Based on such experience I didn't even bother to have a
look at the recent ON 2010 beta, since I would bet on the fact that it won't
have those most asked-for features and all requests to add those will be
spoken into the wind anyway... But it will have stronger license
enforcement, that's for sure!

Michael (seeking a replacement for ON - suggestions?)

 

[Ben M. Schorr, MVP]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way but the fact is that the OneNote team has
consistently implemented asked-for features. The first one that jumps to
mind is the internal hyperlinking. I'm sorry if your favorite requests
haven't materialized yet but in the words of Steven Sinofsky:

"Designing Microsoft Office is like ordering pizza for 400 million people."

Can't accommodate every request. Mine don't always make the final cut
either.

--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com/outlook.html
Author: The Lawyer's Guide to Microsoft Outlook 2007:
http://tinyurl.com/ol4law-amazon

 

[Dave]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way but the fact is that the OneNote team has
consistently implemented asked-for features.  The first one that jumps to
mind is the internal hyperlinking.  I'm sorry if your favorite requests
haven't materialized yet but in the words of Steven Sinofsky:

"Designing Microsoft Office is like ordering pizza for 400 million people.."

Can't accommodate every request.  Mine don't always make the final cut
either.

--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Towerhttp://www.rolandschorr.comhttp://www.officeforlawyers.com/outlook.html
Author: The Lawyer's Guide to Microsoft Outlook 2007:http://tinyurl.com/ol4law-amazon











- Show quoted text -

Hi,

I've commented before about this obvious omission. The same problem
occurs when you use the highlighter tool to highlight a printout etc.
If you then go back and dare to add anything, all your highlighting
gets shunted down. I can't believe that a note-taking programme should
have this issue.

It forces me to take notes in a different way to my normal way (ie the
MS way).

That said, the workaround I use (the term workaround should really be
in ON's marketing, since it's used so often) is to draw or annotate
your notes, then use the screen clipping tool to copy your annotated
notes and paste it into a new page.

It's a shame that some of the obvious and desparately asked for
features have been ignored by the ON team. Especially as most of the
features are available in other Office apps (like grouping). They only
needed to be 'brought across'.

ON has been around for some time now and even in the 2010 edition,
we're not seeing our favourite features.

Dayve

 

[John Waller]

"Designing Microsoft Office is like ordering pizza for 400 million
people."

Exactly the same dilemma faces Adobe for each new version of Photoshop.

They've responded with a "Just Do It" exercise as part of their
engineering effort.

In the words of John Nack (an Adobe PM)

" By and large we're going to take a break from working on big,
long-term projects (Cocoa conversion, etc.), and instead all the
engineers will focus on fixing small, irritating things about the program.

It's a short, intensive run at low-hanging fruit."

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2009/06/feedback_please_jdi.html

I'd love to see Microsoft surprise us all with something similar.

 

[Bernd]

-------- Original-Nachricht --------

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way but the fact is that the OneNote team
has consistently implemented asked-for features. The first one that
jumps to mind is the internal hyperlinking. I'm sorry if your favorite
requests haven't materialized yet but in the words of Steven Sinofsky:

"Designing Microsoft Office is like ordering pizza for 400 million people."

Can't accommodate every request. Mine don't always make the final cut
either.

I'm personally missing that "grouping feature" too.
But after looking into the data structures of ON with OMSpy I'm sure
it's not that easy to integrate a "horizontal" bundling of objects (=
grouping) into that hierarchical data structure.
I'd like to here from someone at Microsoft if I'm right.

Bernd

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way but the fact is that the OneNote
team has consistently implemented asked-for features. The first one
that jumps to mind is the internal hyperlinking.

This IMHO is a really one-eyed view!
Nothing better to offer than a thing which has been implemented in
ON2007 already??

Yes, the internal hyperlinks are mist important. Still it has been
discussed during the ON2007 Beta already that the internal links are
below what would be possible. Linking does only partly reach what the
"Organizer" (later "Lotus Organizer") did already have some
one-and-a-half dozens of years ago :-( :-(

I'm sorry if your favorite requests haven't materialized yet but in the words of Steven
Sinofsky:

"Designing Microsoft Office is like ordering pizza for 400 million
people."

But at least the calls from people calling cheese and tomatoes might be
heard.

Can't accommodate every request. Mine don't always make the final cut
either.

IMO ON2007 is anything but a good example of responsiveness.
Hardly any of the most often asked for things has been implemented in
the new version.
The developers just followed different priorities.
To say with Joni Mitchell's words: ".. clouds got in their way"
{siiiigh}.

Sadly yours
Rainald

 

[Rainald Taesler]

I'm personally missing that "grouping feature" too.
But after looking into the data structures of ON with OMSpy I'm sure
it's not that easy to integrate a "horizontal" bundling of objects (=
grouping) into that hierarchical data structure.

I can't say.
But I am naive enough to thinks that it might be doable some way.

AFAICS it was just the priorities.
"Graphics" issues just were not on the agenda.
That's what Daniel Escapa clearly said last July in the TP-NGs.

Rainald

 

[Rainald Taesler]

I wanted to document all steps to install a larger program package
using OneNote by taking "clips" (i.e. partial screenshots) and adding
red circles around stuff that I had selected or entered.

A most common task, for sure.

This worked at first quite nice. However, the clips and the drawing
elements (ovals) seem to be on different "layers" (or whatever). When
I later insert something on that page above, all the screenshots get
pushed down (which is what I want and expect) but the red ovals stay
where they were and hence now highlight wrong positions and my note
thus becomes complete garbage.

How can I "merge" or group the images/clips with the drawing elements
so that they stick together?

ON does not have the most urgently needed (and most often asked for)
feature for grouping and/or at anchoring.
And this will not be available in ON2010 either. {siiigh}

Therefore one has to use workarounds.
The one suggested by "JohnForAmerica" (nice pseudo, BTW <bg>) - i.e.
working with a screen-clip - works nit is nit too versatile and means a
loss if quality if the involved images (especially if it's PDFs imported
into ON.

I for one prefer different ways:
a) For commenting PDFs I use the PDFAnnotator (a fantastic tool not only
but especially for TabletPCs)[1] prior to importing.
Most PDFs I leave outside ON, however, and just link them. This way I
can easily change or add comments. And I keep them in Adobe's
"Portfolio". Huge advantage: Windows Search does easily find the content
and show it in the Explorer's "Preview Pane" which is not available for
ON data (the lack of a preview-handler [iFilter] for ON is another
serious shortcoming <!!>).

b) For screen-shots I take ON's clipping feature rather seldom and only
for "easy go lucky" tasks.
If it's something I want to work on I use SnagIt[2]. This app is a
professional instrument for taking screen-shots of all kind (incl.
scrolling windows <!>) and commenting/manipulating those as well as any
other sort of images. It has a lot of fine drawing tools, tons of stamps
etc.
I'm also using it for commenting images held in ON: copy + paste into
SnagIt, manipulate them there, then copy + paste back into ON.

c) For easy things the following works fine:
(aa) Comment/highlight the items in ON;
(bb) take the "lasso" for marking the whole of the wanted objects;
(bb) copy the selection and paste it into a graphics tool. My favorite
in so far is "IrfanView", a fantastic piece of freeware which IMHO is a
true must-have on each computer ;-);
(cc) Use copy + paste to bring it back into ON. It's just *one* object
now.

All that are just workarounds.
ON ought to have the basic instruments built-in.
Shame on the developers team :-(

Rainald

 

[Michael Moser]

AFAICS it was just the priorities.
"Graphics" issues just were not on the agenda.
That's what Daniel Escapa clearly said last July in the TP-NGs.

Rainald

One thing that always puzzled me with ON is:

why didn't they recycle (parts of) the powerpoint graphics engine? I mean:
powerpoint 's graphics capabilities are pretty impressive while still being
fairly easy and straight forward to use.
PP also supports scribbles and has all these nice drawing functions that one
expects:
grouping, connectors (i.e. line-attach-points traveling with an underlying
element if that gets moved), layers, you name it, while ON's graphics really
suck! Conceptually speaking: keep the notebook, section (group) and page
structures (and their handling) but make each ON page a single PP page (or
"slide").

And since its part of the same suite one could probably avoid some code
duplication and -bloating along the way. And millions of users would
immediately feel "at home" with ON! Beats me why MS is not capitalising on
this obvious (to me at least...) code re-use possibility.

M.

 

[Bernd]

-------- Original-Nachricht --------

One thing that always puzzled me with ON is:

why didn't they recycle (parts of) the powerpoint graphics engine? I
mean: powerpoint 's graphics capabilities are pretty impressive while
still being fairly easy and straight forward to use.
PP also supports scribbles and has all these nice drawing functions that
one expects:
grouping, connectors (i.e. line-attach-points traveling with an
underlying element if that gets moved), layers, you name it, while ON's
graphics really suck! Conceptually speaking: keep the notebook, section
(group) and page structures (and their handling) but make each ON page a
single PP page (or "slide").

And since its part of the same suite one could probably avoid some code
duplication and -bloating along the way. And millions of users would
immediately feel "at home" with ON! Beats me why MS is not capitalising
on this obvious (to me at least...) code re-use possibility.

M.

I think the reason behind is that ON has been built as a guerilla
project outside the Office team and therefore invented the wheel (the
data model) a second time.

David vs. Goliath ;-)

No one at MS thought ON would become a success. So it was hidden in the
Home and Student Edition where I stumbled upon it, by random.

Bernd

 

[Erik Sojka]

I imagine they wanted to streamline the note taking process. It would be
difficult to create a complex diagram using the drawing tools found in
other Office applications while transcribing a lecture or meeting. If you
need to create a more complex diagram from those notes later on, MS would
likely recommend Visio or PowerPoint.

 

[Ben M. Schorr, MVP]

Actually I was referring to them implementing it in ON2007. ON2010 has the
docked view and the Recycle Bin for two feature requests that come to mind.

I agree that there are some things I would have liked to see in ON2010 that
didn't make it; to that extent ON2007 may have been a bigger step forward
than ON2010 is, but ON2010 takes some nice steps forward in shared
notebooks, versioning and collaboration. Hopefully it sets up for some more
progress on requested features (like grouping) in the next version.

Anyhow, I'm simply disagreeing with the premise that the OneNote team never
implements features people ask for. In fact they very often do - they just
haven't managed to get every feature in there yet. And yes, there are a
couple of big ones that are still hanging.

--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com/outlook.html
Author: The Lawyer's Guide to Microsoft Outlook 2007:
http://tinyurl.com/ol4law-amazon