i hate ribbon -- bring the menus back!

G

Gary

Wow. I just started using Office 2007 and feel like I stepped back to
1987. I have to learn clunky unintuitive software all over again.

Microsoft won market position because they smartly standardized
software. This new ribbon takes up a large portion of my screen,
takes more clicks to do the same function and when I opened Access I
was totally lost--not even close to the old software. I was expecting
a delight with the new upgrade but feel only frustration every time I
use it.

I really do not understand why MS cannot also provide a compatible
"classic view" option. If they are trying to get users to migrate
they are alienating many of us long-time MS Office Suite users. A
better marketing approach would have been to allow both use options
and see which folks prefer. And if the PDA market is driving PC
software design you've got it backwards.

I'm headed back to Office 2003 and if that is not possible then I'll
be looking for new user-friendly office software from a competitor.

I am VERY disappointed!
 
G

Gemini

Gary, I couldn't agree more. Based on what I've read, it appears that
longtime Office users aren't exactly thrilled with this daft "Ribbon". It is
indeed one of the stupidest things I've ever seen from MSFT.

Like you, I've moved back to Office 2003 and am evaluating OpenOffice. The
only reason I haven't abandoned MS completely is that I need to figure out
how to move my Excel macros to OpenOffice.

From a design perspective, a "classic look" is simple. It's a design blunder
to omit that option. Perhaps MS was arrogant enough to think that no matter
what they put out, users will meekly accept it.

Congratulations to MS for alienating long time Office users!

-- Gemini
 
M

Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]

http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh - read it if you are not too closed minded to appreciate the reason for the change.

--
Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]

Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. All
unsolicited mail sent to my personal account will be deleted without
reading.

After furious head scratching, Gary asked:

| Wow. I just started using Office 2007 and feel like I stepped back to
| 1987. I have to learn clunky unintuitive software all over again.
|
| Microsoft won market position because they smartly standardized
| software. This new ribbon takes up a large portion of my screen,
| takes more clicks to do the same function and when I opened Access I
| was totally lost--not even close to the old software. I was expecting
| a delight with the new upgrade but feel only frustration every time I
| use it.
|
| I really do not understand why MS cannot also provide a compatible
| "classic view" option. If they are trying to get users to migrate
| they are alienating many of us long-time MS Office Suite users. A
| better marketing approach would have been to allow both use options
| and see which folks prefer. And if the PDA market is driving PC
| software design you've got it backwards.
|
| I'm headed back to Office 2003 and if that is not possible then I'll
| be looking for new user-friendly office software from a competitor.
|
| I am VERY disappointed!
 
B

Beth Melton

I felt the same way when I first started using Office 2007. My trusty menus
and toolbars were gone and it seemed like it took more clicks to accomplish
a task than the previous versions. I hated it, I hated every minute I spent
with it. BUT then I started discovering the new features that were
introduced and ever since then I've never looked back. The key is two-fold.
1) If you are trying to use the applications exactly as you did in the past
you may find it more cumbersome. 2) While some tasks take more clicks other
tasks, many tasks that used to involved several changes have been reduced to
a couple clicks. I found the time-saving steps are a bit of a trade-off.
Take the Margin galleries for a quick example. If you need to modify your
margins, several frequently used options are available on the Page Layout
tab in the Margins gallery for Word and Excel. All you have to do is open
the gallery, click your selection, and the margins are changed for you.



I suspect once you learn how to efficiently use the new UI then you'll
discover as I did, and numerous others who hated it initially too, things
you wondered how you ever lived without. :) Here are a few tips and
resources that may help:



- Learn more about the Quick Access Toolbar (the small toolbar next to the
Microsoft Office Button that has Save and Undo on it by default). It's easy
to customize and add those commands you frequently use. To add a command,
right-click the command, either on the Ribbon or those found under the
Microsoft Office Button, and then click "Add to Quick Access Toolbar". To
add an entire group, such as the Font group on the Home tab, right-click the
group name instead of a command in the group. To remove a command,
right-click it and you'll see the Remove command. To reorganize commands,
right-click the Quick Access Toolbar and then click "Customize the Quick
Access Toolbar". I set mine up in the beginning so it looked exactly like
the first part of the old Standard toolbar and the first part of the
Formatting toolbar. What a difference that made!



- Right-click *everything*. Unlike previous versions, some commands can only
be found by right-clicking a command. This includes the Galleries as well.



- Use Interactive Guides to help you find commands you're unable to locate.
They can be found in Help or by using these links:



Excel : http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel/HA101491511033.aspx

PowerPoint: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/powerpoint/HA101490761033.aspx

Word: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/HA100744321033.aspx



- Spend a little time on Office Online. It contains a wealth of resources
from tips and tricks to training.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP
https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Melton

What is a Microsoft MVP? http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/gp/mvpfaqs
 
B

Beth Melton

I forgot to add this link that contains a lot of information behind why
Microsoft made the change:
http://www.baychi.org/calendar/20051213

Also, their rational for not providing a classic interface is because the
old interface, designed for the 80s, couldn't handle the new features and
functionality the Ribbon added to the applications. IOW, like the add-ins
that are currently available for supplying a "classic look", it could only
provide those commands that existed in the applications prior to Office
2007.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP
https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Melton

What is a Microsoft MVP? http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/gp/mvpfaqs
 
G

Gemini

I HAVE read those blogs.

Milly, I've read your responses to others on some other discussions as well.
IMHO, your responses will be appreciated more if you eliminate the
sarcastic/acerbic content from your posts.

If you read the earlier posts, we're not talking about the reasons for the
change. We're talking about the EFFECTS of those changes on productivity. It
is NOT smart to assume that users will be willing to expend the effort and
take time out from busy schedules, so that they can learn a whole new UI,
simply to continue using the apps they've been using for years.

-- Gemini
 
G

Gordon

It is NOT smart to assume that users will be willing to expend the
effort and
take time out from busy schedules, so that they can learn a whole new UI,


so how did they learn office in the first place? they didn't just "know how
to use it" did they?
 
G

Gemini

Beth, thanks for that link. Have you read the entire meeting report? Here's
an excerpt.

"In September 2003, Jensen wrote down 3 criteria for success for this new UI
model:

1. People feel a sense of possibility when they see that we've made big
changes.
2. People feel free to explore and use more of the depth of the products.
3. People continue to be at least as efficient, if not more so, on
familiar tasks as they are now."

From my perspective (and from that of many other users), Jensen has failed
on all three counts and most notably, on #3!

Another excerpt:
"Q: What are some of the things you are not happy with in this UI?
A: The biggest hole is the way in which the super-expert users feel about
it. You think of basic users as being most affected by this change. But
they're not. The ones who have the most to lose are the super-elite who have
customized everything, the ones for whom knowing Office to the final endpoint
is a mark of their identity. We have to figure out how to do customization in
a way that experts can dig into and make the most of without getting in the
way of the basic users. These expert users are very vocal and
over-represented in our data. Even if we please 99% of our users, with 400
million users, that leaves 4 million people who could be very angry with this
new UI. But this is just the beginning of a new road. Valuing user experience
is a way to get new people into Office."

It rather looks like Jensen has failed in this area as well. I don't know
how many new users MS has gained because of the ridiculous Ribbon. However, I
do know I'm going to be using Office 2003 and exploring other options. In
other words, MS is about to lose a long time (about 20 yrs) user.

As I've said before, I don't have the inclination nor the time to learn a
new interface merely to continue using Office apps, in order to accomplish my
day to day tasks. The new UI has done absolutely nothing to help me better
with my day to day work.

Since you work for MS, chances are that you don't have a choice. As you can
see from some of the posts here, long time users (such as yours truly) are
now evaluating other alternatives. It was sheer arrogance (and a mistake,
IMHO) for MS not to provide the older UI as a "skin", despite the claim that
the newer UI has more "features". At the very least, users would've had a
choice.

Anyway, thanks for your attempts at helping. However, the bottom line is
that I for one, am not willing to invest the time to retrain myself because
someone at MS thinks so (howsoever indirectly). Do let Mr. Jensen know!

-- Gemini
 
B

Beth Melton

Please note I do not work for Microsoft. I'm an Office user just like you. I
started using Office products back in 1986 using Excel on a Mac and have
been Office since then. :)

I read the interview with Jensen and had the opportunity to see his
presentation in person along with several conversations about the UI. I
honestly don't think he's that far off in his answer to the second question
you cited. I've had the opportunity to work with a large number of Office
users who fall into the basic user category and form what I've observed,
they tend to adapt quicker than the veteran users and they do become more
efficient considering they were struggling to begin with.

As I noted in my previous reply, I hated it at first too. I suspect I was
one of the "very vocal" statistics, as were many MVPs. I told him something
along the lines of "you took away my DeLorean and gave me a Ugo". <grin>
Heh, the rants I'm hearing here were nothing compared to mine and others I
heard. (And BOY did they hear it! LOL) It wasn't until I started learning
more about the new functionality in Office 2007 and realized there's more to
it than a new interface that I took the plunge and realized it really wasn't
that difficult. I think it was the same for many of the power users/experts
that felt the same as I did -- it took getting excited about the new
functionality to embrace the change.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP
https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Melton

What is a Microsoft MVP? http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/gp/mvpfaqs
 
G

Gemini

Beth, thanks for your response. Sorry, for some reason, I had the impression
you worked for MS. I stand corrected.

Beth, the QAT is a very good addition. I added my most frequently used
functions to it right away. However, I haven't seen one feature (besides the
QAT) that actually helps me in my day to day activities. Like you, I've been
using Office apps since the mid-80s. I'd get excited about new functionality
too, if it was something that actually helped and/or improved efficiency. I
still maintain Jensen Harris has failed on those three points he himself
mentioned, esp. the third one. The positive addition of the QAT is more than
nullified with that ridiculous "Ribbon", which is far from intuitive. BTW, my
background includes (amongst other things) s/w arch/des/dev., including
designing UIs for some unique application domains.

I can assure you (and MS) that I'm getting rid of Office 2007 soon. Office
2003 is probably an intermediate step before moving to OpenOffice. Not
providing a "classic UI", despite the fact it may be represented a subset of
the functionality, was a critical error, IMHO.

I trust you read that link I posted earlier. Over on the TechRepublic site,
there are many screaming about Office 2007, esp. the unfortunates who fulfill
an admin role.

All in all, Jensen Harris has successfully lost a long time Office user,
along with many others, going by the posts I've seen here and on TechRepublic.

-- Gemini
 
B

Bob Buckland ?:-\)

Hi Gemini,

FWIW, there are add-ins that allow you to even have some floating toolbars in Office 2007 (http://toolbarToggle.com) and you can
pretty much have it 'both ways' by having your old customizations appear in the Add-Ins tab
http://www.gmayor.com/Toolbars_in_word_2007.htm

Many of the support and Admin folks I've worked with like the Office 2007 approach to maintaining 'order' (makes there ongoing work
easier by not having to walk through trying to 'see' what the other folks are seeing, even though they get more initial calls on how
to use it, or need to do a bit of studying to deploy with a method other than using GPO). As with many news/discussion group
postings folks most often come here when they have an issue, not just to drop by to say how they like things <g>, so there is some
distortion built in as to views :) Some of the things in that thread, such as moving collaboration features to the collaboration
app/server as the base rather than to individual desktops, have made collaboration more productive for places that have implented
that, but yes, it means adding another piece to the puzzle. Some folks need it, some don't. :)

FWIW, I've also seen an increase in workers willingness and ability to assist co-workers because the other person's screen is just
like theirs.
For elderly / occassional users, the larger icons on the ribbon have been helpful. Trying to accurately click or not right click
accidentally and end up 'all wrong' have been helpful. A lot of it depends on context and experience I suppose :)

Interestingly, to me anyway, is that while folks who have no trouble learning a new computer language to write a bit of
customization code have little trouble with the curve for doing so, many of those same folks have often not looked into customizing
the ribbon, which, while not in the UI isn't much different than the other coding in approach :) For example, here's a short
walkthrough by one of the Word MVPs who starts off by pointing out he's not a big fan of the ribbon, that may be something to try
out just for the heck of it
http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/Customize_Ribbon.htm

For 'power users' (if your definition is keyboard shortcuts vs mouse clicks) many of the keyboard shortcuts from the previous
versions still work in Word and the other apps. For example, while the Office keyboard shortcut to bring up what was the
Tools=>Options menu in Word is now
Alt, F, I the old one of Alt, T, O also still works.
When using older versions of the apps now, I sometimes find myself having to stop and remember that I had toolbars in places other
than 'at the top' :)

The Ribbon can also be toggled into minimized view through either Ctrl+F1 or double clicking on a tab.

While it can be interesting to rate or debate the points of the user interface, for many, who work in companies that have it the
goal is the same as in prior versions, it is what it is and 'get the job done with the tools they give you' is still the requirement
:) And with years and years of having folks complain that they can't find things in the 'classic' Windows menus, or that where
something was put in one of those menus was 'a dumb choice', I've found less folks complaining that they can't find things and many
who think that features in Office that have been there for at least ten years, are new in 2007, only because they never saw them
before :) It's certainly not perfect, but then either was the older interface.

Open Office apps have some nice features I'd like to see in the Microsoft ones but it also has some things that just feel 'old' in
the interface such as the non resizable dialog boxes in, if memory serves, places like File=>Open.

=====================
Beth, thanks for your response. Sorry, for some reason, I had the impression
you worked for MS. I stand corrected.

Beth, the QAT is a very good addition. I added my most frequently used
functions to it right away. However, I haven't seen one feature (besides the
QAT) that actually helps me in my day to day activities. Like you, I've been
using Office apps since the mid-80s. I'd get excited about new functionality
too, if it was something that actually helped and/or improved efficiency. I
still maintain Jensen Harris has failed on those three points he himself
mentioned, esp. the third one. The positive addition of the QAT is more than
nullified with that ridiculous "Ribbon", which is far from intuitive. BTW, my
background includes (amongst other things) s/w arch/des/dev., including
designing UIs for some unique application domains.

I can assure you (and MS) that I'm getting rid of Office 2007 soon. Office
2003 is probably an intermediate step before moving to OpenOffice. Not
providing a "classic UI", despite the fact it may be represented a subset of
the functionality, was a critical error, IMHO.

I trust you read that link I posted earlier. Over on the TechRepublic site,
there are many screaming about Office 2007, esp. the unfortunates who fulfill
an admin role.

All in all, Jensen Harris has successfully lost a long time Office user,
along with many others, going by the posts I've seen here and on TechRepublic.

-- Gemini >>
--

Bob Buckland ?:)
MS Office System Products MVP

*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*
 
G

Gemini

Hi Bob! Thanks for your response.

I know there are several 3rd party add-ons to get the "classic" UI back. I'm
using a trial version of Office 2007 and have downloaded one of these for
Excel. I use the latter daily and quite heavily.

Bob, one thing's for sure. That Ribbon has impacted my productivity quite
adversely and hasn't helped me one little bit. I see some improvements in the
UI overall, but the Ribbon negates all the positives and then some. Thank God
I have a trial version. Had I paid for this rubbish, I'd be feeling much
worse.

As I've said before, I'm trying to locate a genuine version of Office 2003
someplace nearby. That's probably an intermediate step to switching to OO. I
don't see the sense in shelling out premium $$$s for a product that I don't
like and seems unstable. As I'm self employed, I don't have to have Office
2007 shoved down my throat, as seems to have happened to many users.

Then again, perhaps M$ doesn't give a hoot about long time users.

-- Gemini
 
S

seven_percent

Hey, Milly-

Your decorum is, well, non-existant. One would expect that someone
who has attained the status would not use ad hominem in their
responses to folks who are expressing an opinion about a product. It
sounds as if you are the designer of the new style of Office and are
taking the comments personally. Comments like "After furious head
scratching, Gary asked:" and "read it if you are not too closed
minded to appreciate the reason for the change." Perhaps you yourself
are "too closed minded to appreciate" the suggestions of others?

At any rate, I agree that it was short-sighted not to include an
option for people to use the Classic Look. There has been much
discussion in magazines like CIO, et al. regarding the utility of not
only Office 2007, but Vista as well. The sweeping conclusion is that
MS should either revert back to the classic look and feel of XP and
Office 2003 altogether, or, fork the products into a classic interface
for enterprise/professional customers and the new look and feel of
Vista/2007 for home users.

Cordially and Respectfully yours-

Daniel Gullo
 
A

Anchient Mariner

Having shot themselves in the right foot with Vista, Microsoft decided to
even up their stance by shooting themselves in the left foot with Office 2007.

In general users are at the mercy of company IT departments, you dont get a
choice of whetever you use 2003, 2007 or office XP. The IT personnel have to
justify their existence by introducing the latest and the greatest. Problems
with the product only make increase their importance.

The introduction of 2007 & the absolutely ghastly ribbon indicates the utter
contempt that Microsoft have for the people who have to use the product.

Having spent many years learning how to use one product I resent being
forced to learn a new system.

The whole thing reminds me of the story "The King Has No Cloths On" until
enough people complain nothing will be done.

Ancient Mariner
 
B

Billy Boy

I heartily second all your comments. After struggling with Word 2007 on almost all changes
to any document for several months, I have decide to leave 2007 and revert back to 2002.
 
C

Co

Hi Beth,

I know this messages comes late but may I ask how long it took you before
you became comfortable using Word 2007? I have it on my home computer and I
have spent about 5 hour +/- a week for about 3 weeks trying to get use to it
and I'm still having difficulties.
 
H

Harlan Grove

Co said:
Hi Beth,

I know this messages comes late but may I ask how long it took you before
you became comfortable using Word 2007? I have it on my home computer and I
have spent about 5 hour +/- a week for about 3 weeks trying to get use to it
and I'm still having difficulties.

Best to start new threads rather than respond in threads which have
lain dormant for months. That said, Microsoft decided that Office
needed a dumbed-down UI. PITA for those of us who don't with to dumb
ourselves down with Office.

Claims that things are more visible in the ribbon than in the classic
UI assume that the active tab in the ribbon is usually the one the
user wants. Nowhere near true for Excel. If the command you want is on
a different ribbon tab from the active ribbon tab, then the command
you want may be MORE DIFFICULT to find than it would be in the classic
UI.

Then there's the QAT. Pathetic. Is there any particular reason it can
only be at the top of the application window? Probably because of the
oversized (metastatized) Office button.

Then there's the unfortunate fact of Office 2008 for Macs, which
provides the features of Office 2007 for Windows but (mercifully!)
without the @#$%&*! ribbon. So much for claims Office 2007 couldn't
have been included a classic menu/toolbars as an alternative UI.

As is all too often the case, if you want good software, get a Mac and
Mac software.

Nope. What the classic menu UI couldn't do was automatically display
galleries as users hover over menu or toolbar entries, but they could
display galleries as dialogs once users click on such entries. As for
the ribbon entries without galleries, they don't differ from classic
menu/toolbar entries.

As for classic UI add-ins, I'd suppose their developers only provided
classic UI features ON PURPOSE. That is, they INTENTIONALLY left new
features out, not that they couldn't add new features. If these add-
ins are themselves alternative ribbons, then your comments are
demonstrably false (and show a lack of thought) - if custom ribbons
could contain anything in the standard ribbon (and they can), then
classic UI add-ins implemented as custom ribbons could have included
the new features. The add-in makers would have had to have decided
where to put the new features in the classic menu. That would have
caused more problems for them than just omitting them.
 

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