indents, one more exception...

J

Jialiang Ge [MSFT]

Hello Dave,

Thanks for pointing it out. The exception in the example xml is because no
custom tabs are defined in the paragraph. So, to supplement the rules, it
should be that: the virtual tab takes effect when there are no custom tabs
after the position of the bullet or numbering.

Regards,
Jialiang Ge ([email protected], remove 'online.')
Microsoft Online Community Support

=================================================
Delighting our customers is our #1 priority. We welcome your comments and
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D

David Thielen

Hi Jialiang;

Can you please tell the Word group they REALLY need to document this -
fully. To confirm, in all versions of Word if there is no explicit tab
setting, then the virtual hanging tab does exist.

Is this no tab setting in the list properties and/or the paragraph
properties? And does this overrinde the Word 2007 ignoreHangingIndent setting?

--
thanks - dave
david_at_windward_dot_net
http://www.windwardreports.com

Cubicle Wars - http://www.windwardreports.com/film.htm
 
D

David Thielen

Hi;

Another question on this.

I have a list with a w:ind and a w:tab. All works fine if my w:p has no
w:ind. But if the paragraph does have a w:ind then the list tab seems to be
increased by w:p/w:ind - w:lvl/w:ind. What is going on here?

This is demonstrated in all lists after the first one in
http://www.windwardreports.com/temp/ListSimple.xml

Also, is there a complete spec of how this works anywhere that I can have? I
don't care if it still needs final editing before being released - I'll take
anything to get this all locked down.

--
thanks - dave
david_at_windward_dot_net
http://www.windwardreports.com

Cubicle Wars - http://www.windwardreports.com/film.htm
 
J

Jialiang Ge [MSFT]

Hello Dave,

Yes. I have emailed the Word team and let them know the need to document
"indention" fully, and ask them if they can give me a more complete
description of how w:ind and w:tab work in Word. I can understand you are
frustrated by its undocumented and complicated behaviors. To understand
thousands of elements/tags/attributes in Word XML is a very difficult task,
especially when some of which are not well documented. I will do my best to
help you out.
Is this no tab setting in the list properties and/or the paragraph
properties?

I meant the custom tabs by <w:tab> in <w:tabs> element.
In Word 2007, when ignoreHangingIndent is turned on, it works in the same
way as Word 2003. When the option is turned off, the virtual tab always
takes effect.
What is the documentation for val='list'?

All the possible values of w:tab / w:val are listed in $2.18.91 ST_TabJc
(Custom Tab Stop Type) section of spec Part 4, including "bar", "center",
"clear", "decimal", "left", "num", "right". However, I do not see "list" in
it. I will check it with Word team to see if it's a value supported by Word
only.
I have a list with a w:ind and a w:tab. All works fine if my w:p has
no w:ind. But if the paragraph does have a w:ind then the list tab
seems to be increased by w:p/w:ind - w:lvl/w:ind. What is going
on here?

I have been testing your example xml, but I am sorry that I cannot figure
out which w:ind causes the problem. Would you please send me two xml: one
with w:ind that behaves unexpectedly, and one without w:ind that works
fine? Thank you for your time and efforts.

Regards,
Jialiang Ge ([email protected], remove 'online.')
Microsoft Online Community Support

=================================================
Delighting our customers is our #1 priority. We welcome your comments and
suggestions about how we can improve the support we provide to you. Please
feel free to let my manager know what you think of the level of service
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This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
=================================================
 
D

David Thielen

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:38:00 -0700, David Thielen

There seems to be something wrong with the MS access to the newsgroups
so I'm using a standard reader.

If you look at http://www.windwardreports.com/temp/ListSimple.xml you
will see that the bulleted lists after the first one start at the
hanging indent - but they use level 0 and it has a tab setting of 1080
which is not where the text starts.

??? - thanks - dave

david@[email protected]
Windward Reports -- http://www.WindwardReports.com
me -- http://dave.thielen.com

Cubicle Wars - http://www.windwardreports.com/film.htm
 
J

Jialiang Ge [MSFT]

Hello Dave,

In the indention rules I set to you in your first indention post, it reads
as this:

¡­..
First, to get the final state of any property (including indents), you need
to follow the style hierarchy rules in ¡ì2.7.2 of the specification
There, it correctly states that the direct formatting (the pPr under the p
element) supersedes the version in the list definition
¡­..

That's to say, all the elements under the p/pPr will supersedes the version
in the list definition.

In your example xml (ListSimple.xml), I notice that the first and second
bulleted paragraphs refer to the same list definition that sets a custom
tab at 1080 and a ind at 1080 (hanging = 360). However, in the second
bulleted paragraph's <w:p><w:pPr>, there is a <w:ind> node that sets ind =
1800. This set supersedes the 1080 value defined in the w:list and Word
takes it (1800) as the final ind value. That's why you see the second
bulleted paragraphs starts at a different position than the first paragraph
though both refer to the same list definition.

Am I understanding your question correctly? Does this explains the issue?
Let me know if you have anything else unclear about.

Regards,
Jialiang Ge ([email protected], remove 'online.')
Microsoft Online Community Support

=================================================
Delighting our customers is our #1 priority. We welcome your comments and
suggestions about how we can improve the support we provide to you. Please
feel free to let my manager know what you think of the level of service
provided. You can send feedback directly to my manager at:
(e-mail address removed).

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
=================================================
 
D

David Thielen

In your example xml (ListSimple.xml), I notice that the first and second
bulleted paragraphs refer to the same list definition that sets a custom
tab at 1080 and a ind at 1080 (hanging = 360). However, in the second
bulleted paragraph's <w:p><w:pPr>, there is a <w:ind> node that sets ind =
1800. This set supersedes the 1080 value defined in the w:list and Word
takes it (1800) as the final ind value. That's why you see the second
bulleted paragraphs starts at a different position than the first paragraph
though both refer to the same list definition.

Hi;

The above is the problem I see. But how does it determine where to
start the text in that second bulleted paragraph? It cannot use the
virtual hanging indent because this is Word 2003. So what rule sets
that location?

thanks - dave

david@[email protected]
Windward Reports -- http://www.WindwardReports.com
me -- http://dave.thielen.com

Cubicle Wars - http://www.windwardreports.com/film.htm
 
J

Jialiang Ge [MSFT]

Hello Dave,

The "hanging" value inherits from the list definition (hanging=360) because
the <w:ind> in <w:p><w:pPr> does not define and supersede this setting.

For the question of how it determines where to start the text in that
second bulleted paragraph:
The default tab stops exist every 720 twips along the line, but they are
not used until all custom tab stops have been exhausted. In this case, the
last custom tab of the second bulleted paragraph is 1080, and
<w:defaultTabStop w:val="720" />, therefore, 1800 is the first of the
default tab stops on that line (if there are no custom tab stops, the
default tab stops start from the left edge).

Even if the above can explain your example xml, I myself find an exception:
If I set the w:hanging value in the first list definition from 360 to 560,
the second bulleted paragraph will start from a different position, which
does not meet the rule above. I am discussing it with the Word team, and
will get back to you soon.

And regarding the <w:tab val="list">, "list" is a value for Word 2003 only:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa173759(office.11).aspx
In ECMA word xml spec for the xml format in Word 2007, we use "num"
instead. It specifies that the current tab is a list tab, which is the tab
stop between the numbering and the paragraph contents in a numbered
paragraph. This justification style is used for backwards compatibility
with earlier word processors, and should be deprecated in favor of hanging
paragraph indention.

Regards,
Jialiang Ge ([email protected], remove 'online.')
Microsoft Online Community Support

=================================================
Delighting our customers is our #1 priority. We welcome your comments and
suggestions about how we can improve the support we provide to you. Please
feel free to let my manager know what you think of the level of service
provided. You can send feedback directly to my manager at:
(e-mail address removed).

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
=================================================
 
J

Jialiang Ge [MSFT]

Hello Dave,

The "hanging" value inherits from the list definition (hanging=360) because
the <w:ind> in <w:p><w:pPr> does not define and supersede this setting.

For the question of how it determines where to start the text in that
second bulleted paragraph:

Word 2003 (and Word 2007 with the compatibility setting on) looks forward
until it finds the first of:
o The hanging indent
o The next custom tab stop
o The next default tab top

In your example xml, we have the following in the second bulleted paragraph.
o A left indent of 1800 twips (from the direct formatting)
o A hanging indent of 360 twips (from the list definition)
o A list tab at 1080 twips (from the list definition)
o Default tab stops at {720,1440, 2160, 2880, ¡­ } (from the document
settings)

Now, that means that:
1) The first line indent is 1440 twips (1800-360).
2) The bullet takes up some nominal width, followed by a tab stop. To get
that tab stop, we search for the first of the three things I mentioned:
The left indent - it's at 1800 twips
The next custom tab stop - none exist
The next default tab top - it's at 2160 twips
Therefore, 1800 twips wins.

And regarding the <w:tab val="list">, "list" is a value for Word 2003 only:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa173759(office.11).aspx
In ECMA word xml spec for the xml format in Word 2007, we use "num"
instead. It specifies that the current tab is a list tab, which is the tab
stop between the numbering and the paragraph contents in a numbered
paragraph. This justification style is used for backwards compatibility
with earlier word processors, and should be deprecated in favor of hanging
paragraph indention.

Regards,
Jialiang Ge ([email protected], remove 'online.')
Microsoft Online Community Support

=================================================
Delighting our customers is our #1 priority. We welcome your comments and
suggestions about how we can improve the support we provide to you. Please
feel free to let my manager know what you think of the level of service
provided. You can send feedback directly to my manager at:
(e-mail address removed).

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
=================================================
 
D

David Thielen

Hi;

Ok, I'm confused. The left indent at 1800, isn't that the virtual
hanging indent tab? And isn't that not used in Word 2003 (WordML)?

If that's not the virtual hanging indent location, what is? It cannot
be 1800-360 because that is the bullet location. What am I not
understanding?

thanks - dave


Hello Dave,

The "hanging" value inherits from the list definition (hanging=360) because
the <w:ind> in <w:p><w:pPr> does not define and supersede this setting.

For the question of how it determines where to start the text in that
second bulleted paragraph:

Word 2003 (and Word 2007 with the compatibility setting on) looks forward
until it finds the first of:
o The hanging indent
o The next custom tab stop
o The next default tab top

In your example xml, we have the following in the second bulleted paragraph.
o A left indent of 1800 twips (from the direct formatting)
o A hanging indent of 360 twips (from the list definition)
o A list tab at 1080 twips (from the list definition)
o Default tab stops at {720,1440, 2160, 2880, ¡­ } (from the document
settings)

Now, that means that:
1) The first line indent is 1440 twips (1800-360).
2) The bullet takes up some nominal width, followed by a tab stop. To get
that tab stop, we search for the first of the three things I mentioned:
The left indent - it's at 1800 twips
The next custom tab stop - none exist
The next default tab top - it's at 2160 twips
Therefore, 1800 twips wins.

And regarding the <w:tab val="list">, "list" is a value for Word 2003 only:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa173759(office.11).aspx
In ECMA word xml spec for the xml format in Word 2007, we use "num"
instead. It specifies that the current tab is a list tab, which is the tab
stop between the numbering and the paragraph contents in a numbered
paragraph. This justification style is used for backwards compatibility
with earlier word processors, and should be deprecated in favor of hanging
paragraph indention.

Regards,
Jialiang Ge ([email protected], remove 'online.')
Microsoft Online Community Support


david@[email protected]
Windward Reports -- http://www.WindwardReports.com
me -- http://dave.thielen.com

Cubicle Wars - http://www.windwardreports.com/film.htm
 
J

Jialiang Ge [MSFT]

Hello Dave,

Yes, 1800 is the virtual tab stop. It is not used until all custom tab
stops have been exhausted. That's to say, if there is a custom tab after
the bullet (e.g. at 1700, or 1900) and the distance between the custom tab
and the bullet allows the bullet font size, the virtual tab stop will be
ignored by Word 2003.

Regards,
Jialiang Ge ([email protected], remove 'online.')
Microsoft Online Community Support

=================================================
Delighting our customers is our #1 priority. We welcome your comments and
suggestions about how we can improve the support we provide to you. Please
feel free to let my manager know what you think of the level of service
provided. You can send feedback directly to my manager at:
(e-mail address removed).

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
=================================================
 
D

David Thielen

Ok, to make sure I have this right - in RTF/DOC/WordML the virtual
hanging indent tab stop is used - if and only if - there are no tab
stops set in the list, paragraph, or styles (list/paragraph style).

Hello Dave,

Yes, 1800 is the virtual tab stop. It is not used until all custom tab
stops have been exhausted. That's to say, if there is a custom tab after
the bullet (e.g. at 1700, or 1900) and the distance between the custom tab
and the bullet allows the bullet font size, the virtual tab stop will be
ignored by Word 2003.

Regards,
Jialiang Ge ([email protected], remove 'online.')
Microsoft Online Community Support


david@[email protected]
Windward Reports -- http://www.WindwardReports.com
me -- http://dave.thielen.com

Cubicle Wars - http://www.windwardreports.com/film.htm
 
J

Jialiang Ge [MSFT]

Hello Dave,

"the virtual hanging indent tab stop is used *IF* there are no tab stops
set in the list, paragraph, or styles (list/paragraph style)"

-- This is correct. If no custom tab is defined, the virtual tab stop will
take effect.

"the virtual hanging indent tab stop is used *ONLY IF* there are no tab
stops set in the list, paragraph, or styles (list/paragraph style)"

-- As I mentioned in the last reply, if the last custom tab is in front of
the bullet, the virtual tab stop will still take effect. An example is your
Word XML: http://www.windwardreports.com/temp/ListSimple.xml. There is a
custom tab in the second bullet paragraph, but the text starts from the
virtual tab stop. Therefore, virtual tab stop is not used only if all
custom tab stops have been exhausted.

Regards,
Jialiang Ge ([email protected], remove 'online.')
Microsoft Online Community Support

=================================================
Delighting our customers is our #1 priority. We welcome your comments and
suggestions about how we can improve the support we provide to you. Please
feel free to let my manager know what you think of the level of service
provided. You can send feedback directly to my manager at:
(e-mail address removed).

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
=================================================
 

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