Is Publisher 2003 an effective way of creating and managing a web.

[RKamm]

What additional does FrontPage offer? Is it necessary for relatively simple
web pages or will Publisher work ?

 

[David Bartosik [MSFT MVP]]

Publisher is a desktop publishing tool that can save to html. Publisher does
come with web page wizards. It is important to be clear on the fact that
Publisher is a DTP tool only with web page output ability, Word also has web
page functionality and can be used for a simple site, and also Excel and
PowerPoint provide html output. While all the above mentioned tools can
create a web page they are not web design nor html editors nor web site
management tools. They do not allow for full support of all browsers, nor
support the wide range of design techniques. That is where FrontPage fits
into the Office Suite. FrontPage is the web site design tool.

With these facts clear you should be able to make an informed decision.
Don't use Publisher if the possibility exists that it's limitations will be
an issue for you. If you still can't make a decision then I recommend you
make a sample web page with Publisher ( and even Word as well ) to find if
you are comfortable with the results or not, and if you will be long-term.
Long term planning is important because if you have big plans for your site
then you don't want limitations.

David Bartosik - [MSFT MVP]
www.publishermvps.com
www.davidbartosik.com

 

[RKamm]

Thanks for your help David.
Very informative. As I work for a non-for-profit with limited funds. I think
I will initially try Publisher as we have that and hope for the best.

Thanks again.

Ray

Publisher is a desktop publishing tool that can save to html. Publisher does
come with web page wizards. It is important to be clear on the fact that
Publisher is a DTP tool only with web page output ability, Word also has web
page functionality and can be used for a simple site, and also Excel and
PowerPoint provide html output. While all the above mentioned tools can
create a web page they are not web design nor html editors nor web site
management tools. They do not allow for full support of all browsers, nor
support the wide range of design techniques. That is where FrontPage fits
into the Office Suite. FrontPage is the web site design tool.

With these facts clear you should be able to make an informed decision.
Don't use Publisher if the possibility exists that it's limitations will be
an issue for you. If you still can't make a decision then I recommend you
make a sample web page with Publisher ( and even Word as well ) to find if
you are comfortable with the results or not, and if you will be long-term.
Long term planning is important because if you have big plans for your site
then you don't want limitations.

David Bartosik - [MSFT MVP]
www.publishermvps.com
www.davidbartosik.com

What additional does FrontPage offer? Is it necessary for relatively
simple
web pages or will Publisher work ?

 

[TEster]

Piggybacking on Ray's question: if a simple website is created using
Publisher, is there any way to import the resulting web page or its source
code in to a program like Frontpage in order to provide some additional
functionality?

What I'm specifically trying to do is create a simple manual that is
displayed as a website but I need to have the ability to print a range of
pages of the manual via the web browser. Is using Publisher the wrong way to
do this? Or is there a way to export the resulting pages to a PDF format or
the like?

Regards,

T

Thanks for your help David.
Very informative. As I work for a non-for-profit with limited funds. I think
I will initially try Publisher as we have that and hope for the best.

Thanks again.

Ray

Publisher is a desktop publishing tool that can save to html. Publisher does
come with web page wizards. It is important to be clear on the fact that
Publisher is a DTP tool only with web page output ability, Word also has web
page functionality and can be used for a simple site, and also Excel and
PowerPoint provide html output. While all the above mentioned tools can
create a web page they are not web design nor html editors nor web site
management tools. They do not allow for full support of all browsers, nor
support the wide range of design techniques. That is where FrontPage fits
into the Office Suite. FrontPage is the web site design tool.

With these facts clear you should be able to make an informed decision.
Don't use Publisher if the possibility exists that it's limitations will be
an issue for you. If you still can't make a decision then I recommend you
make a sample web page with Publisher ( and even Word as well ) to find if
you are comfortable with the results or not, and if you will be long-term.
Long term planning is important because if you have big plans for your site
then you don't want limitations.

David Bartosik - [MSFT MVP]
www.publishermvps.com
www.davidbartosik.com

What additional does FrontPage offer? Is it necessary for relatively
simple
web pages or will Publisher work ?

 

[DavidF]

The short answer to your question about importing the html code into
FrontPage, or now Web Expression, the answer is effectively no. The code is
way too different. You will be able to copy and paste some text and perhaps
some of the other design elements, but basically you should start over with
another program. At least you will have a sense of the design and how you
want to build your page after doing it in Publisher. It should go quicker in
a web program.

I think David Bartosik did an excellent job framing the question of whether
to build your site in Publisher or not. It all really depends upon the scope
and goals you have for your site.

One thing you should know is that since David wrote that message, we have
pretty much figured out how to make Publisher webpages cross browser
compatible. That isn't a good reason to not use Publisher.

In my opinion you can build a good looking and functional site with
Publisher. But you must remember that Publisher is a DTP. If you are
planning a relatively simple, small and static website, then you might find
Publisher great for your purposes. But with convenience comes limitations. I
would read through the posts in this newsgroup to get a better idea of what
those are.

As to your printing question, you can convert a Publisher page to PDF. If
you are using Pub 2007 you can use the add in. If you are using Pub 2003 or
older than try one of the free PDF tools such as www.primopdf.com . One
design challenge you will have is to make sure that your pages are not too
wide to print. It seems that most people create a print formatted document
for people that want to make a "printable" version of their site. Then you
just upload that version and link to it.

Reference: Including external files in a Publisher web:
http://msmvps.com/blogs/dbartosik/archive/2006/01/07/80561.aspx

HTH

DavidF

Piggybacking on Ray's question: if a simple website is created using
Publisher, is there any way to import the resulting web page or its source
code in to a program like Frontpage in order to provide some additional
functionality?

What I'm specifically trying to do is create a simple manual that is
displayed as a website but I need to have the ability to print a range of
pages of the manual via the web browser. Is using Publisher the wrong way
to
do this? Or is there a way to export the resulting pages to a PDF format
or
the like?

Regards,

T

Thanks for your help David.
Very informative. As I work for a non-for-profit with limited funds. I
think
I will initially try Publisher as we have that and hope for the best.

Thanks again.

Ray

Publisher is a desktop publishing tool that can save to html. Publisher
does
come with web page wizards. It is important to be clear on the fact
that
Publisher is a DTP tool only with web page output ability, Word also
has web
page functionality and can be used for a simple site, and also Excel
and
PowerPoint provide html output. While all the above mentioned tools can
create a web page they are not web design nor html editors nor web site
management tools. They do not allow for full support of all browsers,
nor
support the wide range of design techniques. That is where FrontPage
fits
into the Office Suite. FrontPage is the web site design tool.

With these facts clear you should be able to make an informed decision.
Don't use Publisher if the possibility exists that it's limitations
will be
an issue for you. If you still can't make a decision then I recommend
you
make a sample web page with Publisher ( and even Word as well ) to find
if
you are comfortable with the results or not, and if you will be
long-term.
Long term planning is important because if you have big plans for your
site
then you don't want limitations.

David Bartosik - [MSFT MVP]
www.publishermvps.com
www.davidbartosik.com

What additional does FrontPage offer? Is it necessary for relatively
simple
web pages or will Publisher work ?

 

[Doug]

So true, David. I just spent x hours trying to salvage my web pages created
in Word after discovering that they don't display properly in Firefox. After
reading your post, I'm finally giving up. In my experience, both Word and
Publisher are endlessly frustrating for creating web pages (even before this
Firefox fiasco). But the cross-platform incompatibility is the final straw.

It's sad, because Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of. I just tried Word 2007,
hoping that they'd worked out the bugs, but apparently MS has no intention of
ever making this into a reliable crossplatform web design program.

Forgive me, but I *am* assuming that this is Microsoft's failing, because it
seems very unlikely that Firefox would make non-compliant software. They have
no incentive to. Microsoft does.

So now I have to go find a new program and try to import all my
Word-authored web sites into it. And then try to duplicate what I did in
Word...

As David said, plan ahead. And I'd add, plan on using something other that
MS products.

Signed, one very regretful, and thoroughly disgusted ex-Word user,
Doug

Publisher is a desktop publishing tool that can save to html. Publisher does
come with web page wizards. It is important to be clear on the fact that
Publisher is a DTP tool only with web page output ability, Word also has web
page functionality and can be used for a simple site, and also Excel and
PowerPoint provide html output. While all the above mentioned tools can
create a web page they are not web design nor html editors nor web site
management tools. They do not allow for full support of all browsers, nor
support the wide range of design techniques. That is where FrontPage fits
into the Office Suite. FrontPage is the web site design tool.

With these facts clear you should be able to make an informed decision.
Don't use Publisher if the possibility exists that it's limitations will be
an issue for you. If you still can't make a decision then I recommend you
make a sample web page with Publisher ( and even Word as well ) to find if
you are comfortable with the results or not, and if you will be long-term.
Long term planning is important because if you have big plans for your site
then you don't want limitations.

David Bartosik - [MSFT MVP]
www.publishermvps.com
www.davidbartosik.com

What additional does FrontPage offer? Is it necessary for relatively
simple
web pages or will Publisher work ?

 

[DavidF]

Doug,

David Bartosik has not been active in this group for more than two years, so
you will not be getting a response from him.

I don't disagree with much of what David says. He is a true expert and I am
just a lay person that has chosen to use Publisher to build my site, and
have worked out most of the problems associated with cross browser
compatibility. I haven't used Word to build a site, but your comment about
"...Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of..." is probably the key
to your frustration. Word and Publisher are primarily programs for print
publications, and FrontPage for web publications. The simple fact is that
there "layout tricks" in a print publication that simply will not convert to
html...there is no html equivalent. Print and web media are two different
things, and require two different mindsets and design approaches. With
Publisher at least, if you design your pages correctly keeping in mind what
is possible and what is not possible in html, then you can build a site with
good cross browser compatibility. You can look for an alternative to Word or
Publisher, but ultimately it will probably not matter what program you use
to build your site, you will still need to change your design and layout in
order to convert it into html that is cross browser compatible.

This is not to say that you shouldn't move to Expression Web or some other
program specifically designed for web building. It all depends on the goals
and the scope of what you are trying to do with your site. But even if you
do move to a different program, you will still have to work within the
limits of what you can and cannot do in html.

DavidF

So true, David. I just spent x hours trying to salvage my web pages
created
in Word after discovering that they don't display properly in Firefox.
After
reading your post, I'm finally giving up. In my experience, both Word and
Publisher are endlessly frustrating for creating web pages (even before
this
Firefox fiasco). But the cross-platform incompatibility is the final
straw.

It's sad, because Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of. I just tried Word
2007,
hoping that they'd worked out the bugs, but apparently MS has no intention
of
ever making this into a reliable crossplatform web design program.

Forgive me, but I *am* assuming that this is Microsoft's failing, because
it
seems very unlikely that Firefox would make non-compliant software. They
have
no incentive to. Microsoft does.

So now I have to go find a new program and try to import all my
Word-authored web sites into it. And then try to duplicate what I did in
Word...

As David said, plan ahead. And I'd add, plan on using something other
that
MS products.

Signed, one very regretful, and thoroughly disgusted ex-Word user,
Doug

Publisher is a desktop publishing tool that can save to html. Publisher
does
come with web page wizards. It is important to be clear on the fact that
Publisher is a DTP tool only with web page output ability, Word also has
web
page functionality and can be used for a simple site, and also Excel and
PowerPoint provide html output. While all the above mentioned tools can
create a web page they are not web design nor html editors nor web site
management tools. They do not allow for full support of all browsers, nor
support the wide range of design techniques. That is where FrontPage fits
into the Office Suite. FrontPage is the web site design tool.

With these facts clear you should be able to make an informed decision.
Don't use Publisher if the possibility exists that it's limitations will
be
an issue for you. If you still can't make a decision then I recommend you
make a sample web page with Publisher ( and even Word as well ) to find
if
you are comfortable with the results or not, and if you will be
long-term.
Long term planning is important because if you have big plans for your
site
then you don't want limitations.

David Bartosik - [MSFT MVP]
www.publishermvps.com
www.davidbartosik.com

What additional does FrontPage offer? Is it necessary for relatively
simple
web pages or will Publisher work ?

 

[Doug]

Thanks for your thoughts, David. Yes, I realized that Word was "pushing the
envelope" regarding HTML coding -- the resulting pages are generally so
complex that I don't even attempt to manually tweak the coding. But they
worked, for years -- until Firefox came along. I hadn't even bothered to
install Firefox, until someone mentioned that the links on one of my sites
weren't working. It was then that I discovered massive incompatibilities,
incompatibilities which seem to have no solution.

I'm guessing that Microsoft specifically designed IE to be able to handle
code from its products. And now that Firefox has come along, Microsoft is
probably reluctant to make changes to accommodate this upstart competition.
Understandable from their point of view, but from my point of view it's a
repeat of the disastrous Netscape/IE showdown, where the big losers were the
Web designers of the world, who were expected to design separate sites for
Netscape and IE users.

I'm sure eventually Microsoft will get the message -- that Firefox isn't
going to go away. But for now, it seems that they're perhaps still hoping it
will... ;-)

Doug

Doug,

David Bartosik has not been active in this group for more than two years, so
you will not be getting a response from him.

I don't disagree with much of what David says. He is a true expert and I am
just a lay person that has chosen to use Publisher to build my site, and
have worked out most of the problems associated with cross browser
compatibility. I haven't used Word to build a site, but your comment about
"...Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of..." is probably the key
to your frustration. Word and Publisher are primarily programs for print
publications, and FrontPage for web publications. The simple fact is that
there "layout tricks" in a print publication that simply will not convert to
html...there is no html equivalent. Print and web media are two different
things, and require two different mindsets and design approaches. With
Publisher at least, if you design your pages correctly keeping in mind what
is possible and what is not possible in html, then you can build a site with
good cross browser compatibility. You can look for an alternative to Word or
Publisher, but ultimately it will probably not matter what program you use
to build your site, you will still need to change your design and layout in
order to convert it into html that is cross browser compatible.

This is not to say that you shouldn't move to Expression Web or some other
program specifically designed for web building. It all depends on the goals
and the scope of what you are trying to do with your site. But even if you
do move to a different program, you will still have to work within the
limits of what you can and cannot do in html.

DavidF

So true, David. I just spent x hours trying to salvage my web pages
created
in Word after discovering that they don't display properly in Firefox.
After
reading your post, I'm finally giving up. In my experience, both Word and
Publisher are endlessly frustrating for creating web pages (even before
this
Firefox fiasco). But the cross-platform incompatibility is the final
straw.

It's sad, because Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of. I just tried Word
2007,
hoping that they'd worked out the bugs, but apparently MS has no intention
of
ever making this into a reliable crossplatform web design program.

Forgive me, but I *am* assuming that this is Microsoft's failing, because
it
seems very unlikely that Firefox would make non-compliant software. They
have
no incentive to. Microsoft does.

So now I have to go find a new program and try to import all my
Word-authored web sites into it. And then try to duplicate what I did in
Word...

As David said, plan ahead. And I'd add, plan on using something other
that
MS products.

Signed, one very regretful, and thoroughly disgusted ex-Word user,
Doug

Publisher is a desktop publishing tool that can save to html. Publisher
does
come with web page wizards. It is important to be clear on the fact that
Publisher is a DTP tool only with web page output ability, Word also has
web
page functionality and can be used for a simple site, and also Excel and
PowerPoint provide html output. While all the above mentioned tools can
create a web page they are not web design nor html editors nor web site
management tools. They do not allow for full support of all browsers, nor
support the wide range of design techniques. That is where FrontPage fits
into the Office Suite. FrontPage is the web site design tool.

With these facts clear you should be able to make an informed decision.
Don't use Publisher if the possibility exists that it's limitations will
be
an issue for you. If you still can't make a decision then I recommend you
make a sample web page with Publisher ( and even Word as well ) to find
if
you are comfortable with the results or not, and if you will be
long-term.
Long term planning is important because if you have big plans for your
site
then you don't want limitations.

David Bartosik - [MSFT MVP]
www.publishermvps.com
www.davidbartosik.com

What additional does FrontPage offer? Is it necessary for relatively
simple
web pages or will Publisher work ?

 

[DavidF]

Hi Doug,

Actually MSFT is developing IE8 now that is "standards compliant" much as
FF. This will probably be a good thing in the long run, but in the short
term it will create some problems for older sites, and for Publisher built
sites from what I have been told. It has a "compatibility" mode that
supposedly renders the site as it would look in IE7, but as it is still in
beta I haven't bothered to test it. I don't know if MSFT has any plans on
changing Publisher or Word to produce more "compliant" code.

When you do get around to rebuilding your site, and choosing some other
program, be sure to test in both IE7 and FF3 at least. In my experience if
you can get your design and layout to work in those two browsers, then it
will also work in most other browsers including Safari and Opera.

If you are willing to learn the basics about HTML coding and CSS, then you
should probably consider Expression Web as it replaced FrontPage and is
designed to produce standards compliant code. The learning curve is fairly
steep, but in the long run you might be happier than using Publisher or
trying to rework your Word web.

DavidF

Thanks for your thoughts, David. Yes, I realized that Word was "pushing
the
envelope" regarding HTML coding -- the resulting pages are generally so
complex that I don't even attempt to manually tweak the coding. But they
worked, for years -- until Firefox came along. I hadn't even bothered to
install Firefox, until someone mentioned that the links on one of my sites
weren't working. It was then that I discovered massive incompatibilities,
incompatibilities which seem to have no solution.

I'm guessing that Microsoft specifically designed IE to be able to handle
code from its products. And now that Firefox has come along, Microsoft is
probably reluctant to make changes to accommodate this upstart
competition.
Understandable from their point of view, but from my point of view it's a
repeat of the disastrous Netscape/IE showdown, where the big losers were
the
Web designers of the world, who were expected to design separate sites for
Netscape and IE users.

I'm sure eventually Microsoft will get the message -- that Firefox isn't
going to go away. But for now, it seems that they're perhaps still hoping
it
will... ;-)

Doug

Doug,

David Bartosik has not been active in this group for more than two years,
so
you will not be getting a response from him.

I don't disagree with much of what David says. He is a true expert and I
am
just a lay person that has chosen to use Publisher to build my site, and
have worked out most of the problems associated with cross browser
compatibility. I haven't used Word to build a site, but your comment
about
"...Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of..." is probably the
key
to your frustration. Word and Publisher are primarily programs for print
publications, and FrontPage for web publications. The simple fact is that
there "layout tricks" in a print publication that simply will not convert
to
html...there is no html equivalent. Print and web media are two different
things, and require two different mindsets and design approaches. With
Publisher at least, if you design your pages correctly keeping in mind
what
is possible and what is not possible in html, then you can build a site
with
good cross browser compatibility. You can look for an alternative to Word
or
Publisher, but ultimately it will probably not matter what program you
use
to build your site, you will still need to change your design and layout
in
order to convert it into html that is cross browser compatible.

This is not to say that you shouldn't move to Expression Web or some
other
program specifically designed for web building. It all depends on the
goals
and the scope of what you are trying to do with your site. But even if
you
do move to a different program, you will still have to work within the
limits of what you can and cannot do in html.

DavidF

So true, David. I just spent x hours trying to salvage my web pages
created
in Word after discovering that they don't display properly in Firefox.
After
reading your post, I'm finally giving up. In my experience, both Word
and
Publisher are endlessly frustrating for creating web pages (even before
this
Firefox fiasco). But the cross-platform incompatibility is the final
straw.

It's sad, because Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any
other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of. I just tried Word
2007,
hoping that they'd worked out the bugs, but apparently MS has no
intention
of
ever making this into a reliable crossplatform web design program.

Forgive me, but I *am* assuming that this is Microsoft's failing,
because
it
seems very unlikely that Firefox would make non-compliant software.
They
have
no incentive to. Microsoft does.

So now I have to go find a new program and try to import all my
Word-authored web sites into it. And then try to duplicate what I did
in
Word...

As David said, plan ahead. And I'd add, plan on using something other
that
MS products.

Signed, one very regretful, and thoroughly disgusted ex-Word user,
Doug


:

Publisher is a desktop publishing tool that can save to html.
Publisher
does
come with web page wizards. It is important to be clear on the fact
that
Publisher is a DTP tool only with web page output ability, Word also
has
web
page functionality and can be used for a simple site, and also Excel
and
PowerPoint provide html output. While all the above mentioned tools
can
create a web page they are not web design nor html editors nor web
site
management tools. They do not allow for full support of all browsers,
nor
support the wide range of design techniques. That is where FrontPage
fits
into the Office Suite. FrontPage is the web site design tool.

With these facts clear you should be able to make an informed
decision.
Don't use Publisher if the possibility exists that it's limitations
will
be
an issue for you. If you still can't make a decision then I recommend
you
make a sample web page with Publisher ( and even Word as well ) to
find
if
you are comfortable with the results or not, and if you will be
long-term.
Long term planning is important because if you have big plans for your
site
then you don't want limitations.

David Bartosik - [MSFT MVP]
www.publishermvps.com
www.davidbartosik.com

What additional does FrontPage offer? Is it necessary for relatively
simple
web pages or will Publisher work ?

 

[Rob Giordano [MS MVP]]

Word, Publisher, Excel, PowerPoint were never designed to design websites
with although all will output a proprietary html (of sorts), not sure why
they did this imo it wasn't a good idea.



--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression

Thanks for your thoughts, David. Yes, I realized that Word was "pushing
the
envelope" regarding HTML coding -- the resulting pages are generally so
complex that I don't even attempt to manually tweak the coding. But they
worked, for years -- until Firefox came along. I hadn't even bothered to
install Firefox, until someone mentioned that the links on one of my sites
weren't working. It was then that I discovered massive incompatibilities,
incompatibilities which seem to have no solution.

I'm guessing that Microsoft specifically designed IE to be able to handle
code from its products. And now that Firefox has come along, Microsoft is
probably reluctant to make changes to accommodate this upstart
competition.
Understandable from their point of view, but from my point of view it's a
repeat of the disastrous Netscape/IE showdown, where the big losers were
the
Web designers of the world, who were expected to design separate sites for
Netscape and IE users.

I'm sure eventually Microsoft will get the message -- that Firefox isn't
going to go away. But for now, it seems that they're perhaps still hoping
it
will... ;-)

Doug

Doug,

David Bartosik has not been active in this group for more than two years,
so
you will not be getting a response from him.

I don't disagree with much of what David says. He is a true expert and I
am
just a lay person that has chosen to use Publisher to build my site, and
have worked out most of the problems associated with cross browser
compatibility. I haven't used Word to build a site, but your comment
about
"...Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of..." is probably the
key
to your frustration. Word and Publisher are primarily programs for print
publications, and FrontPage for web publications. The simple fact is that
there "layout tricks" in a print publication that simply will not convert
to
html...there is no html equivalent. Print and web media are two different
things, and require two different mindsets and design approaches. With
Publisher at least, if you design your pages correctly keeping in mind
what
is possible and what is not possible in html, then you can build a site
with
good cross browser compatibility. You can look for an alternative to Word
or
Publisher, but ultimately it will probably not matter what program you
use
to build your site, you will still need to change your design and layout
in
order to convert it into html that is cross browser compatible.

This is not to say that you shouldn't move to Expression Web or some
other
program specifically designed for web building. It all depends on the
goals
and the scope of what you are trying to do with your site. But even if
you
do move to a different program, you will still have to work within the
limits of what you can and cannot do in html.

DavidF

So true, David. I just spent x hours trying to salvage my web pages
created
in Word after discovering that they don't display properly in Firefox.
After
reading your post, I'm finally giving up. In my experience, both Word
and
Publisher are endlessly frustrating for creating web pages (even before
this
Firefox fiasco). But the cross-platform incompatibility is the final
straw.

It's sad, because Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any
other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of. I just tried Word
2007,
hoping that they'd worked out the bugs, but apparently MS has no
intention
of
ever making this into a reliable crossplatform web design program.

Forgive me, but I *am* assuming that this is Microsoft's failing,
because
it
seems very unlikely that Firefox would make non-compliant software.
They
have
no incentive to. Microsoft does.

So now I have to go find a new program and try to import all my
Word-authored web sites into it. And then try to duplicate what I did
in
Word...

As David said, plan ahead. And I'd add, plan on using something other
that
MS products.

Signed, one very regretful, and thoroughly disgusted ex-Word user,
Doug


:

Publisher is a desktop publishing tool that can save to html.
Publisher
does
come with web page wizards. It is important to be clear on the fact
that
Publisher is a DTP tool only with web page output ability, Word also
has
web
page functionality and can be used for a simple site, and also Excel
and
PowerPoint provide html output. While all the above mentioned tools
can
create a web page they are not web design nor html editors nor web
site
management tools. They do not allow for full support of all browsers,
nor
support the wide range of design techniques. That is where FrontPage
fits
into the Office Suite. FrontPage is the web site design tool.

With these facts clear you should be able to make an informed
decision.
Don't use Publisher if the possibility exists that it's limitations
will
be
an issue for you. If you still can't make a decision then I recommend
you
make a sample web page with Publisher ( and even Word as well ) to
find
if
you are comfortable with the results or not, and if you will be
long-term.
Long term planning is important because if you have big plans for your
site
then you don't want limitations.

David Bartosik - [MSFT MVP]
www.publishermvps.com
www.davidbartosik.com

What additional does FrontPage offer? Is it necessary for relatively
simple
web pages or will Publisher work ?

 

[DavidF]

You aren't the first person that has said this, but I have to ask why was it
not a good idea?

If you have compiled a lot of statistics, and large database, marketing
materials for your business in one or more of the Office family of programs,
why is it a bad idea to be able to extract a data set, plat a chart, produce
a graph, build a report, produce a newsletter or a business flyer, etc. and
then easily convert those things to html so they can be seen on the web, or
even convert that data/information into a format that can be incorporated
into a web built with "proper" web program? Why is it a bad idea for a
business person, the layperson, hobbyist or anyone who wants a basic,
simple, static website not be able to produce that site using the software
they already own and understand, and instead invest a lot of money and time
to buy and learn how to use "proper" web software, when they don't need it
to achieve their simple goals?

Why is it bad to use these programs to produce proprietary html code, when
it was ok for FrontPage to produce non-standard proprietary code? Should FP
not have been produced?

Once again, please explain why it was a bad idea to build in the ability to
produce html into all the Office family of programs, when there is such an
obvious need for it?

DavidF

Word, Publisher, Excel, PowerPoint were never designed to design websites
with although all will output a proprietary html (of sorts), not sure why
they did this imo it wasn't a good idea.



--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression

Thanks for your thoughts, David. Yes, I realized that Word was "pushing
the
envelope" regarding HTML coding -- the resulting pages are generally so
complex that I don't even attempt to manually tweak the coding. But they
worked, for years -- until Firefox came along. I hadn't even bothered to
install Firefox, until someone mentioned that the links on one of my
sites
weren't working. It was then that I discovered massive incompatibilities,
incompatibilities which seem to have no solution.

I'm guessing that Microsoft specifically designed IE to be able to
handle
code from its products. And now that Firefox has come along, Microsoft is
probably reluctant to make changes to accommodate this upstart
competition.
Understandable from their point of view, but from my point of view it's a
repeat of the disastrous Netscape/IE showdown, where the big losers were
the
Web designers of the world, who were expected to design separate sites
for
Netscape and IE users.

I'm sure eventually Microsoft will get the message -- that Firefox isn't
going to go away. But for now, it seems that they're perhaps still hoping
it
will... ;-)

Doug

Doug,

David Bartosik has not been active in this group for more than two
years, so
you will not be getting a response from him.

I don't disagree with much of what David says. He is a true expert and I
am
just a lay person that has chosen to use Publisher to build my site, and
have worked out most of the problems associated with cross browser
compatibility. I haven't used Word to build a site, but your comment
about
"...Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of..." is probably the
key
to your frustration. Word and Publisher are primarily programs for print
publications, and FrontPage for web publications. The simple fact is
that
there "layout tricks" in a print publication that simply will not
convert to
html...there is no html equivalent. Print and web media are two
different
things, and require two different mindsets and design approaches. With
Publisher at least, if you design your pages correctly keeping in mind
what
is possible and what is not possible in html, then you can build a site
with
good cross browser compatibility. You can look for an alternative to
Word or
Publisher, but ultimately it will probably not matter what program you
use
to build your site, you will still need to change your design and layout
in
order to convert it into html that is cross browser compatible.

This is not to say that you shouldn't move to Expression Web or some
other
program specifically designed for web building. It all depends on the
goals
and the scope of what you are trying to do with your site. But even if
you
do move to a different program, you will still have to work within the
limits of what you can and cannot do in html.

DavidF

So true, David. I just spent x hours trying to salvage my web pages
created
in Word after discovering that they don't display properly in Firefox.
After
reading your post, I'm finally giving up. In my experience, both Word
and
Publisher are endlessly frustrating for creating web pages (even
before
this
Firefox fiasco). But the cross-platform incompatibility is the final
straw.

It's sad, because Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any
other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of. I just tried
Word
2007,
hoping that they'd worked out the bugs, but apparently MS has no
intention
of
ever making this into a reliable crossplatform web design program.

Forgive me, but I *am* assuming that this is Microsoft's failing,
because
it
seems very unlikely that Firefox would make non-compliant software.
They
have
no incentive to. Microsoft does.

So now I have to go find a new program and try to import all my
Word-authored web sites into it. And then try to duplicate what I did
in
Word...

As David said, plan ahead. And I'd add, plan on using something other
that
MS products.

Signed, one very regretful, and thoroughly disgusted ex-Word user,
Doug


:

Publisher is a desktop publishing tool that can save to html.
Publisher
does
come with web page wizards. It is important to be clear on the fact
that
Publisher is a DTP tool only with web page output ability, Word also
has
web
page functionality and can be used for a simple site, and also Excel
and
PowerPoint provide html output. While all the above mentioned tools
can
create a web page they are not web design nor html editors nor web
site
management tools. They do not allow for full support of all browsers,
nor
support the wide range of design techniques. That is where FrontPage
fits
into the Office Suite. FrontPage is the web site design tool.

With these facts clear you should be able to make an informed
decision.
Don't use Publisher if the possibility exists that it's limitations
will
be
an issue for you. If you still can't make a decision then I recommend
you
make a sample web page with Publisher ( and even Word as well ) to
find
if
you are comfortable with the results or not, and if you will be
long-term.
Long term planning is important because if you have big plans for
your
site
then you don't want limitations.

David Bartosik - [MSFT MVP]
www.publishermvps.com
www.davidbartosik.com

What additional does FrontPage offer? Is it necessary for
relatively
simple
web pages or will Publisher work ?

 

[Rob Giordano [MS MVP]]

Because it's proprietary bloated code that was designed to be viewed in IE,
which would be fine for an intranet I suppose, but still....

FP is a different story because it can produce pretty clean code if you are
careful and it can be edited by other web design programs...but Publisher's
can't.




--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression

You aren't the first person that has said this, but I have to ask why was
it not a good idea?

If you have compiled a lot of statistics, and large database, marketing
materials for your business in one or more of the Office family of
programs, why is it a bad idea to be able to extract a data set, plat a
chart, produce a graph, build a report, produce a newsletter or a business
flyer, etc. and then easily convert those things to html so they can be
seen on the web, or even convert that data/information into a format that
can be incorporated into a web built with "proper" web program? Why is it
a bad idea for a business person, the layperson, hobbyist or anyone who
wants a basic, simple, static website not be able to produce that site
using the software they already own and understand, and instead invest a
lot of money and time to buy and learn how to use "proper" web software,
when they don't need it to achieve their simple goals?

Why is it bad to use these programs to produce proprietary html code, when
it was ok for FrontPage to produce non-standard proprietary code? Should
FP not have been produced?

Once again, please explain why it was a bad idea to build in the ability
to produce html into all the Office family of programs, when there is such
an obvious need for it?

DavidF

Word, Publisher, Excel, PowerPoint were never designed to design websites
with although all will output a proprietary html (of sorts), not sure why
they did this imo it wasn't a good idea.



--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression

Thanks for your thoughts, David. Yes, I realized that Word was "pushing
the
envelope" regarding HTML coding -- the resulting pages are generally so
complex that I don't even attempt to manually tweak the coding. But they
worked, for years -- until Firefox came along. I hadn't even bothered
to
install Firefox, until someone mentioned that the links on one of my
sites
weren't working. It was then that I discovered massive
incompatibilities,
incompatibilities which seem to have no solution.

I'm guessing that Microsoft specifically designed IE to be able to
handle
code from its products. And now that Firefox has come along, Microsoft
is
probably reluctant to make changes to accommodate this upstart
competition.
Understandable from their point of view, but from my point of view it's
a
repeat of the disastrous Netscape/IE showdown, where the big losers
were the
Web designers of the world, who were expected to design separate sites
for
Netscape and IE users.

I'm sure eventually Microsoft will get the message -- that Firefox isn't
going to go away. But for now, it seems that they're perhaps still
hoping it
will... ;-)

Doug

:

Doug,

David Bartosik has not been active in this group for more than two
years, so
you will not be getting a response from him.

I don't disagree with much of what David says. He is a true expert and
I am
just a lay person that has chosen to use Publisher to build my site,
and
have worked out most of the problems associated with cross browser
compatibility. I haven't used Word to build a site, but your comment
about
"...Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of..." is probably
the key
to your frustration. Word and Publisher are primarily programs for
print
publications, and FrontPage for web publications. The simple fact is
that
there "layout tricks" in a print publication that simply will not
convert to
html...there is no html equivalent. Print and web media are two
different
things, and require two different mindsets and design approaches. With
Publisher at least, if you design your pages correctly keeping in mind
what
is possible and what is not possible in html, then you can build a site
with
good cross browser compatibility. You can look for an alternative to
Word or
Publisher, but ultimately it will probably not matter what program you
use
to build your site, you will still need to change your design and
layout in
order to convert it into html that is cross browser compatible.

This is not to say that you shouldn't move to Expression Web or some
other
program specifically designed for web building. It all depends on the
goals
and the scope of what you are trying to do with your site. But even if
you
do move to a different program, you will still have to work within the
limits of what you can and cannot do in html.

DavidF

So true, David. I just spent x hours trying to salvage my web pages
created
in Word after discovering that they don't display properly in
Firefox.
After
reading your post, I'm finally giving up. In my experience, both Word
and
Publisher are endlessly frustrating for creating web pages (even
before
this
Firefox fiasco). But the cross-platform incompatibility is the final
straw.

It's sad, because Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any
other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of. I just tried
Word
2007,
hoping that they'd worked out the bugs, but apparently MS has no
intention
of
ever making this into a reliable crossplatform web design program.

Forgive me, but I *am* assuming that this is Microsoft's failing,
because
it
seems very unlikely that Firefox would make non-compliant software.
They
have
no incentive to. Microsoft does.

So now I have to go find a new program and try to import all my
Word-authored web sites into it. And then try to duplicate what I did
in
Word...

As David said, plan ahead. And I'd add, plan on using something
other
that
MS products.

Signed, one very regretful, and thoroughly disgusted ex-Word user,
Doug


:

Publisher is a desktop publishing tool that can save to html.
Publisher
does
come with web page wizards. It is important to be clear on the fact
that
Publisher is a DTP tool only with web page output ability, Word also
has
web
page functionality and can be used for a simple site, and also Excel
and
PowerPoint provide html output. While all the above mentioned tools
can
create a web page they are not web design nor html editors nor web
site
management tools. They do not allow for full support of all
browsers, nor
support the wide range of design techniques. That is where FrontPage
fits
into the Office Suite. FrontPage is the web site design tool.

With these facts clear you should be able to make an informed
decision.
Don't use Publisher if the possibility exists that it's limitations
will
be
an issue for you. If you still can't make a decision then I
recommend you
make a sample web page with Publisher ( and even Word as well ) to
find
if
you are comfortable with the results or not, and if you will be
long-term.
Long term planning is important because if you have big plans for
your
site
then you don't want limitations.

David Bartosik - [MSFT MVP]
www.publishermvps.com
www.davidbartosik.com

What additional does FrontPage offer? Is it necessary for
relatively
simple
web pages or will Publisher work ?

 

[DavidF]

That does not answer the question or support your assertion that the Office
programs should not be able to output in html.

The code produced by Publisher may be more bloated than FP code, but who
cares if it loads relatively quickly. The average Publisher page loads more
quickly than pages with lots of Flash and many of the sites I have seen
built with "proper" web building software. The average person doesn't look
at the code behind the web page, and doesn't care how bloated, or standards
compliant it is, if the page loads, works and looks ok. And yes, the code is
designed to take advantage of some of the technology available in IE, just
as was FP, but that doesn't mean that it can't be made cross browser
compatible, at least in the case of Publisher code.

Yes, if you are careful in FP you can produce cross browser compatible code,
but then if you are careful, you can do the same in Publisher. FP also was
designed to take advantage of IE technology and in many web design purists
views produced bloated, proprietary code with too many Office tags. Why is
it important that the code be able to be edited by another program? How does
that support your assertion?

Sorry, but you have not given any good reason why the Office family of
programs should not be able to produce html versions of their output, while
I gave you many good reasons why they should. Just because the code that is
produced by the Office family of programs is proprietary , nonstandard,
perhaps more bloated than it need be, and can not be easily edited by web
editors are not valid arguments to justify your statement that they should
not be able to output in html.

DavidF

Because it's proprietary bloated code that was designed to be viewed in
IE, which would be fine for an intranet I suppose, but still....

FP is a different story because it can produce pretty clean code if you
are careful and it can be edited by other web design programs...but
Publisher's can't.




--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression

You aren't the first person that has said this, but I have to ask why was
it not a good idea?

If you have compiled a lot of statistics, and large database, marketing
materials for your business in one or more of the Office family of
programs, why is it a bad idea to be able to extract a data set, plat a
chart, produce a graph, build a report, produce a newsletter or a
business flyer, etc. and then easily convert those things to html so they
can be seen on the web, or even convert that data/information into a
format that can be incorporated into a web built with "proper" web
program? Why is it a bad idea for a business person, the layperson,
hobbyist or anyone who wants a basic, simple, static website not be able
to produce that site using the software they already own and understand,
and instead invest a lot of money and time to buy and learn how to use
"proper" web software, when they don't need it to achieve their simple
goals?

Why is it bad to use these programs to produce proprietary html code,
when it was ok for FrontPage to produce non-standard proprietary code?
Should FP not have been produced?

Once again, please explain why it was a bad idea to build in the ability
to produce html into all the Office family of programs, when there is
such an obvious need for it?

DavidF

Word, Publisher, Excel, PowerPoint were never designed to design
websites with although all will output a proprietary html (of sorts),
not sure why they did this imo it wasn't a good idea.



--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression






Thanks for your thoughts, David. Yes, I realized that Word was "pushing
the
envelope" regarding HTML coding -- the resulting pages are generally so
complex that I don't even attempt to manually tweak the coding. But
they
worked, for years -- until Firefox came along. I hadn't even bothered
to
install Firefox, until someone mentioned that the links on one of my
sites
weren't working. It was then that I discovered massive
incompatibilities,
incompatibilities which seem to have no solution.

I'm guessing that Microsoft specifically designed IE to be able to
handle
code from its products. And now that Firefox has come along, Microsoft
is
probably reluctant to make changes to accommodate this upstart
competition.
Understandable from their point of view, but from my point of view it's
a
repeat of the disastrous Netscape/IE showdown, where the big losers
were the
Web designers of the world, who were expected to design separate sites
for
Netscape and IE users.

I'm sure eventually Microsoft will get the message -- that Firefox
isn't
going to go away. But for now, it seems that they're perhaps still
hoping it
will... ;-)

Doug

:

Doug,

David Bartosik has not been active in this group for more than two
years, so
you will not be getting a response from him.

I don't disagree with much of what David says. He is a true expert and
I am
just a lay person that has chosen to use Publisher to build my site,
and
have worked out most of the problems associated with cross browser
compatibility. I haven't used Word to build a site, but your comment
about
"...Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of..." is probably
the key
to your frustration. Word and Publisher are primarily programs for
print
publications, and FrontPage for web publications. The simple fact is
that
there "layout tricks" in a print publication that simply will not
convert to
html...there is no html equivalent. Print and web media are two
different
things, and require two different mindsets and design approaches. With
Publisher at least, if you design your pages correctly keeping in mind
what
is possible and what is not possible in html, then you can build a
site with
good cross browser compatibility. You can look for an alternative to
Word or
Publisher, but ultimately it will probably not matter what program you
use
to build your site, you will still need to change your design and
layout in
order to convert it into html that is cross browser compatible.

This is not to say that you shouldn't move to Expression Web or some
other
program specifically designed for web building. It all depends on the
goals
and the scope of what you are trying to do with your site. But even if
you
do move to a different program, you will still have to work within the
limits of what you can and cannot do in html.

DavidF

So true, David. I just spent x hours trying to salvage my web pages
created
in Word after discovering that they don't display properly in
Firefox.
After
reading your post, I'm finally giving up. In my experience, both
Word and
Publisher are endlessly frustrating for creating web pages (even
before
this
Firefox fiasco). But the cross-platform incompatibility is the final
straw.

It's sad, because Word can do layout tricks that I can't do on any
other
program -- stuff that Front Page can't even dream of. I just tried
Word
2007,
hoping that they'd worked out the bugs, but apparently MS has no
intention
of
ever making this into a reliable crossplatform web design program.

Forgive me, but I *am* assuming that this is Microsoft's failing,
because
it
seems very unlikely that Firefox would make non-compliant software.
They
have
no incentive to. Microsoft does.

So now I have to go find a new program and try to import all my
Word-authored web sites into it. And then try to duplicate what I
did in
Word...

As David said, plan ahead. And I'd add, plan on using something
other
that
MS products.

Signed, one very regretful, and thoroughly disgusted ex-Word user,
Doug


:

Publisher is a desktop publishing tool that can save to html.
Publisher
does
come with web page wizards. It is important to be clear on the fact
that
Publisher is a DTP tool only with web page output ability, Word
also has
web
page functionality and can be used for a simple site, and also
Excel and
PowerPoint provide html output. While all the above mentioned tools
can
create a web page they are not web design nor html editors nor web
site
management tools. They do not allow for full support of all
browsers, nor
support the wide range of design techniques. That is where
FrontPage fits
into the Office Suite. FrontPage is the web site design tool.

With these facts clear you should be able to make an informed
decision.
Don't use Publisher if the possibility exists that it's limitations
will
be
an issue for you. If you still can't make a decision then I
recommend you
make a sample web page with Publisher ( and even Word as well ) to
find
if
you are comfortable with the results or not, and if you will be
long-term.
Long term planning is important because if you have big plans for
your
site
then you don't want limitations.

David Bartosik - [MSFT MVP]
www.publishermvps.com
www.davidbartosik.com

What additional does FrontPage offer? Is it necessary for
relatively
simple
web pages or will Publisher work ?