D
DTE
I did not see training about frame.
Can I do the same thing with layout tables?
Thank you,
DTE
Can I do the same thing with layout tables?
Thank you,
DTE
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E
E. T. Culling
What is it you want to accomplish? Your question isn't too clear.
ETC
ETC
M
Murray
The reason for using or not using frames should be based on a) your site's
needs, and b) your willingness to accept the potential problems that frames
can create for you as developer and maintainer of the site and for your
visitors as casual users of the site.
I am down on frames because I believe that they create many more problems
than they solve.
Judging from the posts here, and the kinds of problems that are described,
the kind of person most likely to elect to use frames is also the kind of
person most likely ill-prepared fo solve the ensuing problems when they
arise. If you feel a) that you understand the problems and b) that you are
prepared to handle them when they occur, and c) that you have a need to use
frames, then by all means use them.
As far as I know, the most comprehensive discussions of frames and their
potential problems can be found on these two links -
http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php
http://www.tjkdesign.com/resources/frames/
needs, and b) your willingness to accept the potential problems that frames
can create for you as developer and maintainer of the site and for your
visitors as casual users of the site.
I am down on frames because I believe that they create many more problems
than they solve.
Judging from the posts here, and the kinds of problems that are described,
the kind of person most likely to elect to use frames is also the kind of
person most likely ill-prepared fo solve the ensuing problems when they
arise. If you feel a) that you understand the problems and b) that you are
prepared to handle them when they occur, and c) that you have a need to use
frames, then by all means use them.
As far as I know, the most comprehensive discussions of frames and their
potential problems can be found on these two links -
http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php
http://www.tjkdesign.com/resources/frames/
K
Kevin Spencer
Can I do the same thing with layout tables?
It depends on what thing you're doing with frames. If, for example, "the
same thing" is build a web site, the answer is "yes." If, on the other hand,
"the same thing" is build a web site with frames, the answer is "no." And
I'm sure there are quite a few other "same things" you could be doing that I
don't know about.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Neither a follower nor a lender be.
It depends on what thing you're doing with frames. If, for example, "the
same thing" is build a web site, the answer is "yes." If, on the other hand,
"the same thing" is build a web site with frames, the answer is "no." And
I'm sure there are quite a few other "same things" you could be doing that I
don't know about.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Neither a follower nor a lender be.
T
Trevor L.
I have seen queries about Layout tables before, and I haven't understood
them.
I have used <frameset> <frame> ... </frameset> for the first time today and
it seems to work O.K. My main problem with it is the fact that the frame is
often bigger than its contents, e.g. a one line content (to be used at the
bottom of each page) needs 4 or 5 lines - making the frame smaller cuts of
the bottom and leaves only the blank that was added at the top.
But what is a layout table ?
Is this just a way of saying to use tables to enclose all one's elements. I
have done this but find that you can't put a table beside a table - each new
table goes below. Framesets do help here, I found
Can anyone throw any light in this topic
--
Cheers,
Trevor L.
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
them.
I have used <frameset> <frame> ... </frameset> for the first time today and
it seems to work O.K. My main problem with it is the fact that the frame is
often bigger than its contents, e.g. a one line content (to be used at the
bottom of each page) needs 4 or 5 lines - making the frame smaller cuts of
the bottom and leaves only the blank that was added at the top.
But what is a layout table ?
Is this just a way of saying to use tables to enclose all one's elements. I
have done this but find that you can't put a table beside a table - each new
table goes below. Framesets do help here, I found
Can anyone throw any light in this topic
--
Cheers,
Trevor L.
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
M
Murray
A layout table is a 'smoke and mirrors' way of getting a plain, ordinary,
HTML table. I don't recommend their use. Just drop a table on your page,
put content in it. Add your styles, and go on your way....
HTML table. I don't recommend their use. Just drop a table on your page,
put content in it. Add your styles, and go on your way....
R
Ronx
Layout tables are a way of laying out a page using tables, which, IMO, is
much better than using frames.
You can nest tables, this will enable two tables to be placed next to each
other:
example:
<table>
<tr>
<td>
<table>
<tr>
<td>...</td>
</tr>
</table>
</td>
<td>
<table>
.....
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
set table borders, cellspacing and cellpadding to zero.
There are other methods, using CSS for example.
For the frames problem, set the page margins to zero.
much better than using frames.
You can nest tables, this will enable two tables to be placed next to each
other:
example:
<table>
<tr>
<td>
<table>
<tr>
<td>...</td>
</tr>
</table>
</td>
<td>
<table>
.....
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
set table borders, cellspacing and cellpadding to zero.
There are other methods, using CSS for example.
For the frames problem, set the page margins to zero.
K
Kevin Spencer
Well, now, Murray, that may have been a little unfair. Like you, I believe
that CSS is the only way to go, for so many reasons. But I am also much more
fond of ASP.Net than ASP. However, for a beginner, learning a more complex
methodology can be a daunting task. I often recommend ASP over ASP.Net to
people with little programming experience. And for the same conceptual
reasons, I often recommend using layout tables over CSS for beginning HTML
developers.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Neither a follower nor a lender be.
that CSS is the only way to go, for so many reasons. But I am also much more
fond of ASP.Net than ASP. However, for a beginner, learning a more complex
methodology can be a daunting task. I often recommend ASP over ASP.Net to
people with little programming experience. And for the same conceptual
reasons, I often recommend using layout tables over CSS for beginning HTML
developers.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Neither a follower nor a lender be.
M
Murray
8)
I reserve the right to rant a bit....
I reserve the right to rant a bit....
T
Trevor L.
Thanks to Murray, Kevin and Ronx.
My answers (I hope I direct the right answers to the right people!)
Kevin, I am quite happy to use CSS.
Murray,
Sure, you can rant a little. I find the ranting in the newsgroup quite
helpful - at least it tells you what people are thinking. The problem is
sifting out from various peoples opinions what will work for me.
Ronx,
I get the idea you have described of a table beside a table (i.e. nesting
tables). This may be what I need.
To all,
I still don't know where one creates Layout Tables in FP or exactly what
HTML it creates.
Where is it in the menu?
If it is not worthwhile, then I won't bother. I am actually one who doesn't
like too much "magic" behind the scenes. I would prefer to get closer the
code than further apart
--
LOL to all,
Trevor
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
My answers (I hope I direct the right answers to the right people!)
Kevin, I am quite happy to use CSS.
Murray,
Sure, you can rant a little. I find the ranting in the newsgroup quite
helpful - at least it tells you what people are thinking. The problem is
sifting out from various peoples opinions what will work for me.
Ronx,
I get the idea you have described of a table beside a table (i.e. nesting
tables). This may be what I need.
To all,
I still don't know where one creates Layout Tables in FP or exactly what
HTML it creates.
Where is it in the menu?
If it is not worthwhile, then I won't bother. I am actually one who doesn't
like too much "magic" behind the scenes. I would prefer to get closer the
code than further apart
--
LOL to all,
Trevor
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
K
Kevin Spencer
Hi Trevor,
When you use Layout tables in FrontPage 2003, it creates regular HTML
tables, with all borders set to zero. The result is that the tables are
invisible, but can be used for layout and alignment. You could do the same
thing by inserting a regular HTML table and setting all the borders to zero.
It's just a convenience.
Yuo can find it under the Tables menu. As a historical note, HTML started
out as a very simple markup language. As it eveolved, people wanted to get
more jiggy with the layout. Originally, tables were the best way to achieve
this. However, with the advent and evolution of CSS, tables are falling into
some disfavor. The reason? Tables are fixed HTML, in the page. By using an
external CSS style sheet, one can manipulate the layout without changing or
adding any HTML to the content, thereby effectively separating content and
layout into 2 distinct "tiers." This enables the developer to change the
look of his/her entire web site without touching any of the HTML content in
it, just the CSS.
A good example of CSS in action can be found at http://csszengarden.com.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Neither a follower nor a lender be.
When you use Layout tables in FrontPage 2003, it creates regular HTML
tables, with all borders set to zero. The result is that the tables are
invisible, but can be used for layout and alignment. You could do the same
thing by inserting a regular HTML table and setting all the borders to zero.
It's just a convenience.
Yuo can find it under the Tables menu. As a historical note, HTML started
out as a very simple markup language. As it eveolved, people wanted to get
more jiggy with the layout. Originally, tables were the best way to achieve
this. However, with the advent and evolution of CSS, tables are falling into
some disfavor. The reason? Tables are fixed HTML, in the page. By using an
external CSS style sheet, one can manipulate the layout without changing or
adding any HTML to the content, thereby effectively separating content and
layout into 2 distinct "tiers." This enables the developer to change the
look of his/her entire web site without touching any of the HTML content in
it, just the CSS.
A good example of CSS in action can be found at http://csszengarden.com.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Neither a follower nor a lender be.
T
Trevor L.
Kevin,
I think I know why I haven't found Layout Tables.
You stated "........ Layout tables in FrontPage 2003..........."
I am using FP2002. If Layout tables are simply tables with no borders to
help position your text, then that is fine - I am doing that already.
--
Many Thanks,
Trevor L.
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
I think I know why I haven't found Layout Tables.
You stated "........ Layout tables in FrontPage 2003..........."
I am using FP2002. If Layout tables are simply tables with no borders to
help position your text, then that is fine - I am doing that already.
--
Many Thanks,
Trevor L.
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
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