Keeping list levels together ?

[Norm]

I'm trying to keep a level 1 paragraph of a List Style with several
level 2 paragraphs on the same page without a page break. Not having
much luck.

Is there a way to define this in the Style or do I do this manually when
the situation arises?

Thanks.

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Norm:

What do you mean by "Level 1"? You playing around in Outline Lists?

For any style that I intend to use as part of a list, I define "Keep With
Next" as one of its paragraph properties.

However, this works properly ONLY if "Keep Lines Together" is defined for
both paragraphs, and Keep Lines Together cannot work unless "Widow/Orphan
Control" is turned off.

Keep with Next ensures that the following paragraph begins on the same page
as the one to which Keep With Next is applied.

Keep Lines Together ensures that all of the lines of a paragraph remain on
the same page.

Widow/Orphan ensures that a minimum of two lines of a paragraph appear
either side of a page break.

Obviously, Widow/Orphan cannot work unless Keep Lines Together is turned
off. And equally obviously, Keep With Next cannot work if the paragraph is
allowed to split across a page break, so Widow/Orphan must be OFF and Keep
Lines Together must be ON to enable Keep With Next to work.

Remembering all of that is a chore, so I set it in the styles. My Heading
Styles all have Keep With Next, Keep Together, and no Widow/Orphan. My Body
styles all have Keep Together and no Widow/Orphan.

Nearly all of my work is single-column A4 format. With such a wide column,
allowing paragraphs to split across pages is simply a quick way to annoy the
reader (remember: the person for whom we are doing all this...?). Yes, if
you allow paragraphs to split, you will pack the pages a little more full.
Which means presenting the reader with an unbroken grey sea of type they
don't want to read.

Typographers working in narrow justified columns will enable paragraph
splitting to avoid large gaps at the bottom of columns. But their decision
to justify has already made the text so hard to read that a little more pain
won't make the experience much worse. Remember: Graphics designers are
working for the best "appearance" of the text; their aim is usually in
conflict with the Author, Editor, and Reader, who want the "easiest to read"
product.

Hope this helps

I'm trying to keep a level 1 paragraph of a List Style with several
level 2 paragraphs on the same page without a page break. Not having
much luck.

Is there a way to define this in the Style or do I do this manually when
the situation arises?

Thanks.

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410 | mailto:[email protected]

 

[Norm]

Hi John:

What do you mean by "Level 1"? You playing around in Outline Lists?

I need some MS Word terminology 101 help I fear.

I've created a multi-level List Style (I think I've seen you use that
terminology as well as "outline list" but maybe not) and a List
Paragraph style for Level 1 and Level 2.

In any situation where there is a level 2 paragraph I want the level 1
paragraph and all the level 2 paragraphs on the same page. At least I
"think" that is what I want.

Hope this helps

Your explanation of all the combinations was very helpful.

One f/u question. If one wants all paragraphs of a List Style or all
paragraphs of a level of a Outline List to be on the same page, is that
possible?

As always, thank you for clearing up the mysteries,

Norm

 

[Norm]

Hi John:

Any words of wisdom from the professor on this?

Thanks either way,

Norm

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Norm:

Strange... I sent you an answer to that the day you posted, and it didn't
make it onto the server. Herewith repeating:

Hi Norm:

I need some MS Word terminology 101 help I fear.

I've created a multi-level List Style (I think I've seen you use that
terminology as well as "outline list" but maybe not) and a List
Paragraph style for Level 1 and Level 2.

For us old grey-beards, when you use the unqualified term "style" we assume
you mean "Paragraph Style". In this case, you DO mean Paragraph style,
because a List Style has no "Paragraph" properties.

So when you are talking about "Keep With Next" you must be looking at a
Paragraph style.

A List Style glues together up to nine paragraph styles into a single list.

So you CANNOT have a List Style for Level 1 and a List Style for Level 2.
That's not a single list, that's two lists, and they are not associated in
any way.

To do what you want, you need to define a List Style that contains all the
paragraph styles you want in the list.

Are we doing bullets or numbers here? Let's assume Bullets.

1) Define a List Style named BulletNorm.

2) For level 1, use the built-in paragraph style List Bullet.

3) For Level 2, use the built-in style List Bullet 2.

4) For Level 3 (always do one more than you intend to use, or promote/demote
doesn't work right...) use the built-in style List Bullet 3.

5) OK your way out, then modify the List Bullet paragraph style to have Keep
With Next and Keep Lines Together ON and Widow/Orphan OFF.

6) Make the same change to List Bullet 2 paragraph style.

Now, whenever you apply BulletNorm, all members of the BulletNorm list will
remain together on a page.

If they will fit.

If they won't fit, Word will try first to make them fit: if it can't, it
will throw the entire block to the next page, if it still won't fit, Word
will split at the end of that new page by ignoring Keep With Next for the
last paragraph. Which will be very apparent because you will get an ugly
gap on the first page.

To cure it, take a guess at how much of the list will fit on the first page.
Click in that paragraph, and turn OFF the "Keep With Next" property. The
paragraphs in the list will then shuffle around to honour the new
properties.

In any situation where there is a level 2 paragraph I want the level 1
paragraph and all the level 2 paragraphs on the same page. At least I
"think" that is what I want.

Yes, that's what you want.

One f/u question. If one wants all paragraphs of a List Style or all
paragraphs of a level of a Outline List to be on the same page, is that
possible?

As above... Yes, it is possible.

Your confusion is resulting from the fact that you lost sight of the fact
that Word has FOUR kinds of Style: Paragraph, Character, List, and Table.
In Word 2011 you will see a fifth: "Linked" which is both a Paragraph and a
Character style joined as a pair.

Remember that "Style" is a generic term, like "Traffic". In the Traffic you
can have Cars, Buses, Trucks, and Motorcycles. Cars can carry a few people,
Buses must carry more than 12 people, Trucks can carry lots of things but
not people, and a motorcycle can carry only one person and no "other
things".

A List Style carries a list definition ONLY. It can associate Paragraph
styles (but not Character, List or Table) styles as part of its payload. It
can carry list formatting, but not text formatting.

There are those of us who think that "List Style" was a poor choice of name,
and that the object is not in fact a "style". We always used to call it a
"List Template", and when you start playing in VBA, that's what it still is.

Similarly, a "Table Style" used to be called a "Table Autoformat", and
really, that's what it is

Hope this helps

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410 | mailto:[email protected]

Hi John:

Any words of wisdom from the professor on this?

Thanks either way,

Norm

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410 | mailto:[email protected]

 

[Norm]

Hi John:

Hi Norm:

Strange... I sent you an answer to that the day you posted, and it didn't
make it onto the server. Herewith repeating:

I assumed that the internet was possessed or some other malfunction. You
have me and others in the newsgroup spoiled with your rapid mvp
responses and thus my repeat post.

For us old grey-beards, when you use the unqualified term "style" we assume
you mean "Paragraph Style". In this case, you DO mean Paragraph style,
because a List Style has no "Paragraph" properties.

So when you are talking about "Keep With Next" you must be looking at a
Paragraph style.

A List Style glues together up to nine paragraph styles into a single list.

So you CANNOT have a List Style for Level 1 and a List Style for Level 2.
That's not a single list, that's two lists, and they are not associated in
any way.

So I think I set it up correctly following one of your early tutor
sessions with me on styles and hanging indents 101.

I created a List Style with two levels and then two paragraph styles and
associated one with each. They were/are of the form: 1. and a)

What I didn't know how to do correctly was make sure the Level 2
paragraphs would stay with their respective Level one paragraph on the
same page.

Your following answers that:

To do what you want, you need to define a List Style that contains all the
paragraph styles you want in the list.

Are we doing bullets or numbers here? Let's assume Bullets.

1) Define a List Style named BulletNorm.

2) For level 1, use the built-in paragraph style List Bullet.

3) For Level 2, use the built-in style List Bullet 2.

4) For Level 3 (always do one more than you intend to use, or promote/demote
doesn't work right...) use the built-in style List Bullet 3.

5) OK your way out, then modify the List Bullet paragraph style to have Keep
With Next and Keep Lines Together ON and Widow/Orphan OFF.

6) Make the same change to List Bullet 2 paragraph style.

Now, whenever you apply BulletNorm, all members of the BulletNorm list will
remain together on a page.

What if I just want BulletNorm level 1 and associated level 2 on the
same page. Possible?

Yes, that's what you want.

But the next level 1 paragraph can be on a different page. At least that
was what I was trying to define.

As above... Yes, it is possible.

See mine above. I didn't ask it very clearly.

Snip

There are those of us who think that "List Style" was a poor choice of name,
and that the object is not in fact a "style". We always used to call it a
"List Template", and when you start playing in VBA, that's what it still is.

Being only a rookie at this, I would agree that List Style confuses me.
List Template would be clearer.

Hope this helps

As always, very much so.

Thank you,

Norm

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Norm:

Your following answers that:


What if I just want BulletNorm level 1 and associated level 2 on the
same page. Possible?

No, I just thought I would type out a procedure for doing it just for typing
practice.

Split the Step 5 above into three sub-steps:

5) OK your way out,
5a) then modify the List Bullet paragraph style to have Keep With Next ON
5b) and Keep Lines Together ON
5c) and Widow/Orphan OFF.

And step 6:

6) Make the same change to List Bullet 2 paragraph style:
6a) then modify the List Bullet paragraph style to have Keep With Next ON
6b) and Keep Lines Together ON
6c) and Widow/Orphan OFF.

Now: Write out 1,000 times "Norm will closely read, parse, and inwardly
digest each answer before posting a follow-up question."

Hand this to your long-suffering Wife, who will withhold all cups of tea
until all spelling errors have been removed...

But the next level 1 paragraph can be on a different page. At least that
was what I was trying to define.

In which case, you need to release "Keep With Next" from the bottom Level 2
paragraph, to allow the following Level 1 to move to the next page.

The only way to do this is with direct formatting.

I have customised a button to do this, and placed it on my Formatting
Toolbar.

The command is called "ParaKeepWithNext". To get it into your toolbar with
an icon:

1) First create a custom toolbar,
2) drag the command onto the custom toolbar,
3) then right-click the command,
4) assign an icon (or paste a picture in to use as one),
5) then set the Display Style to "Default",
6) then drag the customised button onto your Formatting toolbar
7) Then delete the Custom toolbar you created and OK your way out.

Being only a rookie at this, I would agree that List Style confuses me.
List Template would be clearer.

Well, I have always thought "List Template" was not a good name either:
really it's a "List Format" not a "Template"

Cheers
--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410 | mailto:[email protected]

 

[Norm]

Hi John... <sheepishly>

No, I just thought I would type out a procedure for doing it just for typing
practice.

That needle implies I did not fully absorb your procedure the first
time.

Off to read it again, and again, and again........

Now: Write out 1,000 times "Norm will closely read, parse, and inwardly
digest each answer before posting a follow-up question."

Hand this to your long-suffering Wife, who will withhold all cups of tea
until all spelling errors have been removed...

Hmmmm..... not only did I not fully comprehend the quality of your
recommended procedure but apparently I responded with conceptual errors,
spelling errors and typos. :-(

Off to find those....

My wife just walked by and read your post. She is still laughing from
afar but at, not with, me. She said something about either the speed
of my responses or the time of day when I respond to posts.

I will respond but only after my errors are found, embarrassment
diminishes AND I still have any NECESSARY follow-up questions. Off to
find my dunce cap.

Thanks for putting up with this student.

Thanks,

Norm

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Norm:

My wife just walked by and read your post. She is still laughing from
afar but at, not with, me. She said something about either the speed
of my responses or the time of day when I respond to posts.

Oh, that's harsh! You may need to remind her that, next Operating
System upgrade, you "could" simply hand her the DVD...

On second thoughts, risking a future of subsistence entirely on baked beans
on toast is a terrifyingly brave strategy...

Cheers

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

 

[John McGhie]

There weren't any spelling or grammatical errors: that was simply a
pre-emptive strike on my part, just to amuse your wife...

Your major sin was rushing into print before fully reading the post.

I recognise this because it's a trap I fall into constantly...

Cheers

Hi John:



I concur with your "second thoughts." Too brave for me.

BTW.... I'm still looking for those errors in my post plus applying and
testing your recommended changes to my List Styles.

Thanks.

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410 | mailto:[email protected]

 

[Norm]

Hi John:

There weren't any spelling or grammatical errors: that was simply a
pre-emptive strike on my part, just to amuse your wife...

Too funny. You caught me.... hook, line and sinker.

And Linda is laughing.... again at .... not with..... me!

Your major sin was rushing into print before fully reading the post.

The post with your recommendations?

Or your f/u post that caught me?

Back to pour over those posts.

I have a couple of questions but I'm a little gun-shy at the moment...
holding off on posting.

Thanks... made the day here,

Norm

 

[Norm]

Hi John:

I found it. :-( <sheepishly>

What if I just want BulletNorm level 1 and associated level 2 on the
same page. Possible?

[/QUOTE]

I intended to combine the above question with the qualifier of my next
question which was:

"But the next level 1 paragraph can be on a different page."

Without that qualifier as part of the question, I was in essence asking
you to repeat yourself.

Which you did ....... with an appropriate sharpened needled aimed at
the author of the post, me!

Direct hit!!!!

 

[Norm]

Hi John:

All is working following your recommended approach. Thank you.

Two follow-up questions below....

But the next level 1 paragraph can be on a different page. At least that
was what I was trying to define.

In which case, you need to release "Keep With Next" from the bottom Level 2
paragraph, to allow the following Level 1 to move to the next page.

The only way to do this is with direct formatting.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. I didn't know if I was missing a way to do that within the
Style rather than direct formatting.

I have customised a button to do this, and placed it on my Formatting
Toolbar.

The command is called "ParaKeepWithNext". To get it into your toolbar with
an icon:

1) First create a custom toolbar,
2) drag the command onto the custom toolbar,
3) then right-click the command,
4) assign an icon (or paste a picture in to use as one),

I just dragged the Command to my custom toolbar since I have yet to
learn how to create an appropriate icon . My abbreviation (kwn) will
have to do until I take the next "course."

5) then set the Display Style to "Default",

What does this Default mean? I always set that to "Text (always)."

6) then drag the customised button onto your Formatting toolbar
7) Then delete the Custom toolbar you created and OK your way out.

BTW, since you don't use the Formatting Palette, do you put the
promote/demote buttons on your Formatting or custom toolbar?

Well, I have always thought "List Template" was not a good name either:
really it's a "List Format" not a "Template"

Sounds much better and more logical.

Perhaps in Office 2011. No..... I'm not fishing for advance info!

Thanks,

Norm

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Norm:

What does this Default mean? I always set that to "Text (always)."

Good. "Default" means "Picture only". Since you have not assigned a
picture, you would get a blank space

BTW, since you don't use the Formatting Palette, do you put the
promote/demote buttons on your Formatting or custom toolbar?

Varies according to the direction of the wind, the phase of the moon, and my
mood on the day. Sometimes I don't put them "anywhere"

Perhaps in Office 2011. No..... I'm not fishing for advance info!

Good. You will only catch empty beer cans and old boots by dangling that
particular line

Cheers

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410 | mailto:[email protected]