Little "shadow" versions of .doc files transferred to Windows??

[Bill Weylock]

Could one of you MVPs please confirm what I once read in a support file and
cannot now find again?

When I use a synch utility to synchronize a Mac folder to a Windows XP
folder, Windows generates little 4k shadow versions of each .doc or .xls
file. There will be OriginalMacFile.doc, which I can open and use with no
problems, and also ._OriginalMacFile.doc, which cannot be opened and has no
information OfficeXP can read.

My recollection is that these little files are Window¹s way of handling
³resource² information in Mac files.

I also believe that, once generated, they are useless to both Windows and
Macs. The only thing to be done with them is throw them away.

I¹m asking because the very nice young guy who is writing Synk does not want
to include a deletion mechanism for these little boogers until he has
confirmation that they are useless from someone with more creds than I have.

Is there anything to be said for NOT deleting those little guys? For
instance, could they have some residual utility if returned to the Mac side?
I doubt it, but I guess I¹d have the same scruple if I were writing
software.

A link to an MVP file or MS support file would be terrific of course. My
searches have not got me anywhere.

Thanks!


Best,


- Bill


Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004

 

[Barry Wainwright]

Could one of you MVPs please confirm what I once read in a support file and
cannot now find again?

When I use a synch utility to synchronize a Mac folder to a Windows XP folder,
Windows generates little 4k shadow versions of each .doc or .xls file. There
will be OriginalMacFile.doc, which I can open and use with no problems, and
also ._OriginalMacFile.doc, which cannot be opened and has no information
OfficeXP can read.

My recollection is that these little files are Window¹s way of handling
³resource² information in Mac files.

That is correct.

I also believe that, once generated, they are useless to both Windows and
Macs. The only thing to be done with them is throw them away.

That is correct also.

I¹m asking because the very nice young guy who is writing Synk does not want
to include a deletion mechanism for these little boogers until he has
confirmation that they are useless from someone with more creds than I have.

Is there anything to be said for NOT deleting those little guys? For instance,
could they have some residual utility if returned to the Mac side? I doubt it,
but I guess I¹d have the same scruple if I were writing software.

I suppose that, once separated out, someone could write a routine to
re-combine them, but I know of no currently existing utility to do it. There
is no vital information contained in the resource fork (there can't be, or
we would not have file level compatibility with windows docs).

A link to an MVP file or MS support file would be terrific of course. My
searches have not got me anywhere.

Sorry, I don't know of anywhere this is written up.

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Bill:

He needs to read the documentation from Apple on High Performance File
System "Plus" -- HFS+, which is the most common file system on Macs.

In this file system, each file is actually two components, the "Resource"
fork and the "Data" fork. See
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1150.html#HFSPlusBasics

In Windows XP, the pair should appear and be managed as only one file, as
they do on the Mac. In older versions of Windows, you will see the two
components as separate files.

The reason you need to delete them is that, if Windows deletes the Data
fork, it is now dissociated from the Resource fork, which will then hang
around forever. On Windows XP, each file will occupy a single block of disk
space and Windows does not know to delete it so it never will.

Hope this helps

Could one of you MVPs please confirm what I once read in a support file and
cannot now find again?

When I use a synch utility to synchronize a Mac folder to a Windows XP folder,
Windows generates little 4k shadow versions of each .doc or .xls file. There
will be OriginalMacFile.doc, which I can open and use with no problems, and
also ._OriginalMacFile.doc, which cannot be opened and has no information
OfficeXP can read.

My recollection is that these little files are Window¹s way of handling
³resource² information in Mac files.

I also believe that, once generated, they are useless to both Windows and
Macs. The only thing to be done with them is throw them away.

I¹m asking because the very nice young guy who is writing Synk does not want
to include a deletion mechanism for these little boogers until he has
confirmation that they are useless from someone with more creds than I have.

Is there anything to be said for NOT deleting those little guys? For instance,
could they have some residual utility if returned to the Mac side? I doubt it,
but I guess I¹d have the same scruple if I were writing software.

A link to an MVP file or MS support file would be terrific of course. My
searches have not got me anywhere.

Thanks!


Best,


- Bill


Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Bill Weylock]

It does help, John.

The remaining problem for me is that I still don¹t have a reference for the
little resource files on the Windows side. Since he¹s a Mac developer, he
knows about resource and data forks. He just seems to have no exposure to
what can happen on a Windows system when they go over there.

If I connect from my Windows XP SP2 laptop to the Mac, I pull files over as
one file. If, however, I connect from the Mac and drop files into the
folders that appear on the Windows server, I get the two bits.

By the way, deleting the data fork has no bearing on whether the resource
file stays or goes. It¹s there just like any other document, except useless
and unreadable, until I throw it away.

Really appreciate the time and trouble. I just wish I could remember where
the documentation is on this.

Thanks again!


Best,


- Bill

Hi Bill:

He needs to read the documentation from Apple on High Performance File
System "Plus" -- HFS+, which is the most common file system on Macs.

In this file system, each file is actually two components, the "Resource"
fork and the "Data" fork. See
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1150.html#HFSPlusBasics

In Windows XP, the pair should appear and be managed as only one file, as
they do on the Mac. In older versions of Windows, you will see the two
components as separate files.

The reason you need to delete them is that, if Windows deletes the Data
fork, it is now dissociated from the Resource fork, which will then hang
around forever. On Windows XP, each file will occupy a single block of disk
space and Windows does not know to delete it so it never will.

Hope this helps

Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004

 

[Bill Weylock]

Thanks. Maybe this will do it. I¹m not sure whether he¹ll take our word for
it, or whether I¹m going to have to appear in white robes with flaming
tablets to get this point across.

The idea that those things could be useful again on the Mac side seems very
odd to me. I¹m having trouble figuring out why this is such a tough concept.

Thanks again!


Best,


- Bill

That is correct.


That is correct also.


I suppose that, once separated out, someone could write a routine to
re-combine them, but I know of no currently existing utility to do it. There
is no vital information contained in the resource fork (there can't be, or
we would not have file level compatibility with windows docs).


Sorry, I don't know of anywhere this is written up.

Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Bill:

Ah hah! Well, this is fascinating. I did not see these "dot-underscore"
files at all until I turned on "Display and manage web files and folders
individually" in Windows XP SP2 Explorer Tools>Options...

Once I enabled that setting, I saw a file name prefixed with dot-undersore
for the file that I added from the Mac across the network by Copy and Paste.
The file I Dragged in didn't get one.

It appears that the file concerned is a "lock" file placed by 'something" to
indicated that the file has an edit lock on it. In this case, the file was
a Word document and I had used Get Info on it from the Mac side. That would
have attached an Edit Lock to the file name.

Disconnecting the Mac from the Windows box did not make the file go away.

So I don't think it IS a Resource Fork. I think it is a lock file. And now
I am as confused as you...

Cheers

It does help, John.

The remaining problem for me is that I still don¹t have a reference for the
little resource files on the Windows side. Since he¹s a Mac developer, he
knows about resource and data forks. He just seems to have no exposure to what
can happen on a Windows system when they go over there.

If I connect from my Windows XP SP2 laptop to the Mac, I pull files over as
one file. If, however, I connect from the Mac and drop files into the folders
that appear on the Windows server, I get the two bits.

By the way, deleting the data fork has no bearing on whether the resource file
stays or goes. It¹s there just like any other document, except useless and
unreadable, until I throw it away.

Really appreciate the time and trouble. I just wish I could remember where the
documentation is on this.

Thanks again!


Best,


- Bill







Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Jim Gordon MVP]

Hi Bill,

Once a document is closed they are indeed useless and can be thrown away.

Is there a special reason your friend has Windows configured to show hidden
files? The easiest thing for most Windows users to do is to turn off the
display of hidden files. The little underscore files are then never seen.
Out of sight, out of mind.

-Jim Gordon
Mac MVP

All responses should be made to this newsgroup within the same thread.
Thanks.

About Microsoft MVPs:
http://www.mvps.org/

Before posting a "new" topic please be sure to search Google Groups to see
if your question has already been answered.

 

[Bill Weylock]

Found an Apple expert (supposedly) who said that if the files are
transferred back to a Mac OS drive, they will be rejoined. That makes no
sense to me, but I had to give up my argument since I found someone to back
the other guy¹s position.

This is my Windows system, not a friend¹s. I didn¹t realize those files were
supposed to be invisible ­ even though I know that is the format for
invisible files on OS X. I think I had the option turned on (if this makes
sense) because I was otherwise unable to see inside the Programs folder. I
guess I¹ll turn it off and end all this talk.

Thanks. I don¹t like solutions that are this simple and uncomplicated, but
just this once ...


Best,


- Bill

Hi Bill,

Once a document is closed they are indeed useless and can be thrown away.

Is there a special reason your friend has Windows configured to show hidden
files? The easiest thing for most Windows users to do is to turn off the
display of hidden files. The little underscore files are then never seen.
Out of sight, out of mind.

-Jim Gordon
Mac MVP

All responses should be made to this newsgroup within the same thread.
Thanks.

About Microsoft MVPs:
http://www.mvps.org/

Before posting a "new" topic please be sure to search Google Groups to see
if your question has already been answered.

Panther 10.3.6
Office 2004
Windows XP Pro SP2
Office 2003