MSP Versus Primavera

[James Griffiths]

Hi Everybody

This is my first ever question, and I hope there is someone out there might be able to answer it

Like all software, MSP has its limitations and, shall we say, characteristic behavioural patterns. We've been using MSP for the past 6 years, with Project Central for the past two, running Engineering Design, Manufacture and Installation programmes of up to 3000 lines and £10M over4 years, performing EVA direct from the programme data. Most of our clients, though, use various versions of Primavera (from Suretrak to P3e)...and my bosses seem to think that Primavera must be Gods Gift (mainly because they believe that, if the MSP programme doesn't instantly answer their question, howsoever they ask it, then the software must be "C**P"). They also fail to realise that it's a case of " you get out what you put in" - and not really down to the software itself

The question is: Although I've had some basic experience with Primavera, it's just not enough to make an informed judgement as to the differences in operational characteristics between MSP and PV. As you are all aware, only thousands of hours will imbue you with the depth of experience that give you the opportunity to make a truly valid comparison. Where does PV score over MSP and vice versa? For instance, PV has no "undo" button (lethal, IMO).....but MSP will allow you to put "Actuals" into the future etc. Is there anyone out there who could provide a genuine and honest opinion as to one piece of kit being better than the other
Yours in anticipation

James.

 

[Rod Gill]

Primavera is meant to be better for very large programs of projects and for
several planners to work together on the same plan. However:

My understanding is Primavera is no more multi-user than Project -
especially if the program is split into sub projects.

Primavera (at least here in new Zealand) is significantly more expensive (by
many orders of magnitude) once you include the cost of software, training
and ramping up to speed.

Project has some limitations but:
It's very open. You can enter and retrieve data in many formats whilst
Primavera has a rather proprietary interface: you can't integrate your own
systems to it easily.
Project is far more common so it's much easier to find Project experts than
Primavera experts.
You can share Project's data with others in many formats (including xml) and
I think Primavera is far less helpful.
Project has a well known macro language (VBA) that you can use to
dramatically alter its functionality and use to merge its power with other
tools. (many people know this VBA - just look at the VBA newsgroups for
proof).
Invest in some training in Project and you are likely to get far more
productivity than using a complex (and not necessarily more powerful) tool
like Primavera.

Mind you I'm biased: I make my living by working with Project and I couldn't
with Primavera (there just aren't enough people using it). Has Primavera got
a powerful, supportive and 7 x 24 support system like these news groups?

--
For VBA posts, please use the public.project.developer group.
For any version of Project use public.project
For any version of Project Server use public. project.server

Rod Gill
Project MVP
For Microsoft Project companion projects, best practices and Project VBA
development services
visit www.projectlearning.com/

Hi Everybody,

This is my first ever question, and I hope there is someone out there might be able to answer it.

Like all software, MSP has its limitations and, shall we say,

characteristic behavioural patterns. We've been using MSP for the past 6
years, with Project Central for the past two, running Engineering Design,
Manufacture and Installation programmes of up to 3000 lines and £10M over4
years, performing EVA direct from the programme data. Most of our clients,
though, use various versions of Primavera (from Suretrak to P3e)...and my
bosses seem to think that Primavera must be Gods Gift (mainly because they
believe that, if the MSP programme doesn't instantly answer their question,
howsoever they ask it, then the software must be "C**P"). They also fail to
realise that it's a case of " you get out what you put in" - and not really
down to the software itself.

The question is: Although I've had some basic experience with Primavera,

it's just not enough to make an informed judgement as to the differences in
operational characteristics between MSP and PV. As you are all aware, only
thousands of hours will imbue you with the depth of experience that give you
the opportunity to make a truly valid comparison. Where does PV score over
MSP and vice versa? For instance, PV has no "undo" button (lethal,
IMO).....but MSP will allow you to put "Actuals" into the future etc. Is
there anyone out there who could provide a genuine and honest opinion as to
one piece of kit being better than the other?

 

[James Griffiths]

Hi, Rod

Thanks for that. What you've said concurrs with my general experience. Personally, I think it's more an "education" issue for the bosses. The company's history is steepd in "politics, pretty pictures and gut-feel" as opposed to quantifiable evidence provided by a correctly administered programme. According to some bosses, the project data is only right "...if the client says so"...therefore, if the client is using Primavera, by defintion the software must be right.

If you could make the same living out of either MSP or Primvera, which would you choose, and why?

James.

 

[Mark Durrenberger]

One way to investigate is to take a Primavera class without committing to
purchasing the software - the sales reps will, if you ask nice, get you in
one for free if they think you might be buying.

Another approach - get references from the sales people. Call those
references. Ask the references for references (try to get some "off the
list" names - names primavera won't give you.

With any software, what you put in is what you get out (GIGO was the old
expression - garbage in, garbage out)

Of course, if your project management process is broken, then bringing in a
more complicated tool will just break it more. :-(

Mark


--
_________________________________________________________
Mark Durrenberger, PMP
Principal, Oak Associates, Inc, www.oakinc.com
"Advancing the Theory and Practice of Project Management"
________________________________________________________

The nicest thing about NOT planning is that failure
comes as a complete surprise and is not preceded by
a period of worry and depression.

- Sir John Harvey-Jones

Hi Everybody,

This is my first ever question, and I hope there is someone out there might be able to answer it.

Like all software, MSP has its limitations and, shall we say,

characteristic behavioural patterns. We've been using MSP for the past 6
years, with Project Central for the past two, running Engineering Design,
Manufacture and Installation programmes of up to 3000 lines and £10M over4
years, performing EVA direct from the programme data. Most of our clients,
though, use various versions of Primavera (from Suretrak to P3e)...and my
bosses seem to think that Primavera must be Gods Gift (mainly because they
believe that, if the MSP programme doesn't instantly answer their question,
howsoever they ask it, then the software must be "C**P"). They also fail to
realise that it's a case of " you get out what you put in" - and not really
down to the software itself.

The question is: Although I've had some basic experience with Primavera,

it's just not enough to make an informed judgement as to the differences in
operational characteristics between MSP and PV. As you are all aware, only
thousands of hours will imbue you with the depth of experience that give you
the opportunity to make a truly valid comparison. Where does PV score over
MSP and vice versa? For instance, PV has no "undo" button (lethal,
IMO).....but MSP will allow you to put "Actuals" into the future etc. Is
there anyone out there who could provide a genuine and honest opinion as to
one piece of kit being better than the other?

 

[John Beamish]

Software evaluation is an art. You really have two choices here: either
purchase software that fits in with your existing processes or decide to
modify your processes to maximize the efficiency and benefits from the
software. There is no right answer to that question.

Once you've done that you can start by constructing scenarios and
checklists. The scenarios (I don't know what yours would be but something
like this: build a plan with 1,000 tasks and 150 human resources and 20
material resources and then perform the following 30 functions: add a
resource, replace a resource, etc., etc., etc.) should reflect the way you
currently operate. The compare the two products.

The checklist is easier and harder. It's easier to build up a list of
features that get yes/no answers but, really, who cares? It's the benefits
from the features. Simple example: undo. It's easy to put yes/no but it's
far more important to know the impact of the implementation. Yes, MS
Project has 'undo" but there are some things you can't "undo".

I know: you came here with a question looking for an answer and it appears
that all I've given you are more questions. Look closely, though, and
you'll see that my questions are also answers to your question.

JLB, PMP

Hi Everybody,

This is my first ever question, and I hope there is someone out there might be able to answer it.

Like all software, MSP has its limitations and, shall we say,

characteristic behavioural patterns. We've been using MSP for the past 6
years, with Project Central for the past two, running Engineering Design,
Manufacture and Installation programmes of up to 3000 lines and £10M over4
years, performing EVA direct from the programme data. Most of our clients,
though, use various versions of Primavera (from Suretrak to P3e)...and my
bosses seem to think that Primavera must be Gods Gift (mainly because they
believe that, if the MSP programme doesn't instantly answer their question,
howsoever they ask it, then the software must be "C**P"). They also fail to
realise that it's a case of " you get out what you put in" - and not really
down to the software itself.

The question is: Although I've had some basic experience with Primavera,

it's just not enough to make an informed judgement as to the differences in
operational characteristics between MSP and PV. As you are all aware, only
thousands of hours will imbue you with the depth of experience that give you
the opportunity to make a truly valid comparison. Where does PV score over
MSP and vice versa? For instance, PV has no "undo" button (lethal,
IMO).....but MSP will allow you to put "Actuals" into the future etc. Is
there anyone out there who could provide a genuine and honest opinion as to
one piece of kit being better than the other?

 

[Arthur]

When it comes to getting in-depth Primavera expertise and facts, you'll be
better off speaking to Primavera or the Primavera Authorised Representative
in your area or country, than asking for it in an MS-P forum. Similarly,
I'd not expect to get the most informed MS-P information in one of the
Primavera news groups.

For example, one of the other replies said that "Primavera" is no more
multi-user than MS-P. With respect, that's not true. Perhaps though it's a
matter of definition. In my definition, multi-user includes concurrent
updating (not just reading) of the same data within a project. The
Primavera program "P3" has had record-locking at the field level (not only
at the project level) for maybe 15 years. Also, the reference to
"sub-projects" is presumably also a reference to either P3 or SureTrak, both
of which have only two levels of project structure, albeit with all of the
projects in one database. But there have been newer Primavera programs than
P3 around since 1999, and they allow (amongst a lot of other things!) an
effectively unlimited project structure. (OK, actually 50 levels, which I
guess is enough to model the most sophisticated of requirements!) All in
the same database, a different WBS for any project if you wish (so
combinations of very different projects can be controlled by those who need
to do so, if you wish to allow that), truly multi-user, and with real-time
concurrent-user access possible through both Windows and web. (Yes, the
latter is directly in and out of the project database, a change through the
web is immediately seen by a Wndows "power" user, and vice-versa.) That is
why I put the word "Primavera" in quotation marks. When the word is used by
someone (even still many Primavera users), they most times mean P3. But
there's a lot more to Primavera than P3!

Hi Everybody,

This is my first ever question, and I hope there is someone out there might be able to answer it.

Like all software, MSP has its limitations and, shall we say,

characteristic behavioural patterns. We've been using MSP for the past 6
years, with Project Central for the past two, running Engineering Design,
Manufacture and Installation programmes of up to 3000 lines and £10M over4
years, performing EVA direct from the programme data. Most of our clients,
though, use various versions of Primavera (from Suretrak to P3e)...and my
bosses seem to think that Primavera must be Gods Gift (mainly because they
believe that, if the MSP programme doesn't instantly answer their question,
howsoever they ask it, then the software must be "C**P"). They also fail to
realise that it's a case of " you get out what you put in" - and not really
down to the software itself.

The question is: Although I've had some basic experience with Primavera,

it's just not enough to make an informed judgement as to the differences in
operational characteristics between MSP and PV. As you are all aware, only
thousands of hours will imbue you with the depth of experience that give you
the opportunity to make a truly valid comparison. Where does PV score over
MSP and vice versa? For instance, PV has no "undo" button (lethal,
IMO).....but MSP will allow you to put "Actuals" into the future etc. Is
there anyone out there who could provide a genuine and honest opinion as to
one piece of kit being better than the other?

 

[JackD]

Hi, Rod.

Thanks for that. What you've said concurrs with my general experience.

Personally, I think it's more an "education" issue for the bosses. The
company's history is steepd in "politics, pretty pictures and gut-feel" as
opposed to quantifiable evidence provided by a correctly administered
programme. According to some bosses, the project data is only right "...if
the client says so"...therefore, if the client is using Primavera, by
defintion the software must be right.

If you could make the same living out of either MSP or Primvera, which would you choose, and why?

James.

I have made a living with both. Either is fine. My opinion is you use
whichever tool is appropriate. In my current situation I appreciate the
flexibility and easy programmability of Project and how easy it is to get
data into and out of the tool. In other situations I enjoyed the stability
and power of P3 which set it apart from project (this was back in project
4.0 days).

Someone talented/experienced in one tool should be able to pick up the other
fairly quickly. They are not all that different.

Religious wars about software tools are just a waste of time.

-Jack

 

[Rod Gill]

MS Project has VBA and is easy to get data in and out. It therefore has more
potential for customisation work. Microsoft also has the resources to bring
out significant releases more often, so where its behind in some features
you can be sure that if enough customers ask for it, it's on its way.
Looking back at other PM software in the past, several just disappeared
because with a release cycle of every 4 or more years, other tools just
accelerated past them. I'm not saying Primavera is in this position, but you
know Microsoft has a two yearly cycle. Though having said that I suspect
there will be a longer delay this time to wait for the next Windows version
and the powerful extra tools it will bring with it.

--
For VBA posts, please use the public.project.developer group.
For any version of Project use public.project
For any version of Project Server use public. project.server

Rod Gill
Project MVP
For Microsoft Project companion projects, best practices and Project VBA
development services
visit www.projectlearning.com/

Hi, Rod.

Thanks for that. What you've said concurrs with my general experience.

Personally, I think it's more an "education" issue for the bosses. The
company's history is steepd in "politics, pretty pictures and gut-feel" as
opposed to quantifiable evidence provided by a correctly administered
programme. According to some bosses, the project data is only right "...if
the client says so"...therefore, if the client is using Primavera, by
defintion the software must be right.

 

[Alan]

I know this is a MS-P news group and that's where the knowledge mostly lies.
I'm also only an occasional visitor to this forum, my usual Internet
connection doesn't have access to the alt NGs And as I'm not an MS-P user
my occasional browsing is "idle interest" and I wouldn't ordinarily
contribute. But if comments are going to be made about other products, then
I think they should be correct, and corrected when not.

1. As far as I know, it is as easy to get data in and out of the Primavera
tools as it is any other, perhaps easier. Leaving aside the best-known P3,
which has a lot of I/O options but which has to a large extent been replaced
by newer products, there are several ways of doing this. These include
to/from .xls format and the provision of two sophisticated API's. One of
the latter includes an SDK and allows the use of programming languages such
as VB and C+. The other uses an XML integration server. I may not have
described all of that perfectly, I'm not an expert!

2. Project Management software is Primavera's only business, and their
continued success rests solely on the reception of their products in the
marketplace. This includes frequent new versions that will take advantage
of new technology and that will provide users with new capabilities to help
them in their work. Since Primavera's new generation of software first
emerged in about mid-1999, there have now been I think 7 releases (excluding
Service Packs) with the recent release of 4.0. Even if the cynics amongst
us (I'm usually one!) say that only a change in the first digit signifies
something major, that will be four in less than five years. Microsoft is a
huge company, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the resources allocated
to one of their many products are greater than those of other companies.
(Regarding frequency of new versions, I know Rod said that he "wasn't saying
Primavera is in this position", but nevertheless some readers may lump
Primavera into this category, hence my clarification.)

 

[JackD]

1. As far as I know, it is as easy to get data in and out of the
Primavera

tools as it is any other, perhaps easier. Leaving aside the best-known P3,
which has a lot of I/O options but which has to a large extent been replaced
by newer products, there are several ways of doing this. These include
to/from .xls format and the provision of two sophisticated API's. One of
the latter includes an SDK and allows the use of programming languages such
as VB and C+. The other uses an XML integration server. I may not have
described all of that perfectly, I'm not an expert!

Alan,
It is certainly possible, however in my experience the beginning user is
likely to have an easier experience. Especially if they are used to VBA in
other MS applications.

As for the responsiveness to the customer, I think that Primavera might
actually be more responsive than Microsoft in responding to user requests.
Part of this is that they generally have a more experienced and focused set
of customers so it may be easier to respond.

Anyway, there are enough scheduling tools. Too bad none of them have all the
features I want!

-Jack

 

[James]

Gentlemen

Thank you all for your inputs. It seems that this type of topic definitely stimulates a lively debate....and I'm more than happy to listen to the views of all concerned (I need educating also...and the best place is in this type of forum, where no-one is trying to sell me something). You all have led me to the general conclusion that it's not the software that we need to change, but the project management process.....and that's a whole different ball game

I'll certainly be back soon, but this time with some specific MSP questions about the "Group By..." function. So get your thinking-caps on

Cheers

James.