nested tables or frames?

[DianaH]

What are the pros and cons on frames? I've been using them, but they seem
to have a bad reputation and I'm not sure what the alternatives are.

Is nesting tables (inserting a table inside a table cell), a good
alternative. I've discovered that using frames produces "surprise" displays
on other people's monitors, so I have to size the frames larger than I'd
like, so that they aren't cut off. I want to eliminate the need for
scrollbars. I've tried nesting tables inside a table, however, trying to
resize a table that is suddenly larger than the cell that it resides in, is
a definite challenge.

And ... if I use say, the left column to place a menu (instead of a frame),
how do I display the linked page without opening another window. Am I
barking up the wrong tree?
I want the effect that frames provide, i.e., placing a menu down the left,
with links to other pages that display on the main (right) frame, but can
this be achieved another way (in FP 2003)?

I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Diana

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

I recommend tables over frames.

For each link that you insert in the menu, set the target value to _top, this will replace the
current browser content with the content of the link.

It take a little time and effort to work with tables effectively. How did you get a nested table to
be larger than the cell you inserted into?

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Murray]

What are the pros and cons on frames?

There aren't many 'pros' and there are lots of 'cons'. Read this -
http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php

Is nesting tables (inserting a table inside a table cell), a good
alternative.
Sure.

how do I display the linked page without opening another window

You don't. You just link to the new page. If your pages are properly sized
and weighted, the transition will be nearly imperceptible.

Am I
barking up the wrong tree?

In a way, yes. You are thinking about web pages with a frame mentality.
Stop that! 8)

 

[Murray]

For each link that you insert in the menu, set the target value to _top,

this will replace the
current browser content with the content of the link.

You do not need to do this - it is assumed. A link with no target will do
the same thing.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Unless someone frames the site, then any internal links (after the first page) will continue to open
within that site's frameset without having to use JavaScript frame busting scripts, in most cases.

I try not to assume how a browser will handle this, so I set each link to have a target value.

If you get in the habit of assigning a target value to each link, then you never have a problem with
linking to external links that replace your site in the browser, if you are concern about not
driving users away from your site.
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Murray]

We should live so long to have other people framing our sites! 8)

Seems to me that if you are really concerned about that, a single line of js
at the top of the page would be more efficient than assigning a top target
to every link, e.g.,

if (self!=top)
top.location.replace(self.location);

 

[DianaH]

What are the pros and cons on frames?

There aren't many 'pros' and there are lots of 'cons'. Read this -
http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php
--- That's what I've heard, so I will check it out.

Is nesting tables (inserting a table inside a table cell), a good
alternative.

Sure.
--- OK

how do I display the linked page without opening another window

You don't. You just link to the new page. If your pages are properly sized
and weighted, the transition will be nearly imperceptible.
---- However .... I want the link to display on the right. I just attempt a
"table layout" instead of frames and inserted a link, but there was no
option to tell it to display on the right (main ... in frames). I want the
visitor to be able to use a left menu without having a bunch of windows
open. Am I asking the question right?

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

In a way, yes. You are thinking about web pages with a frame mentality.
Stop that! 8)
--- You are right, but it's what I know (for now). I will try!!!! 8>))
Diana

 

[Murray]

Am I asking the question right?

Perhaps, but you are expecting the wrong answer. You cannot do this in a
practical way. Just make your links each open a new page with new content.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

And if users has JavaScript disabled....

Target values as far as I know can not be disabled.
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[DianaH]

Murray,
It would seem that if I can't do what I'm asking for in a practical way,
then perhaps I'll have to stick with frames. I want to be able to click on
the left, to make the page display on the right. I think it's way too much
travelling to do it the way you are suggesting.
I thank you for your responses.
Diana

Am I asking the question right?

Perhaps, but you are expecting the wrong answer. You cannot do this in a
practical way. Just make your links each open a new page with new content.

 

[DianaH]

Thomas,
Thanks for your response(s).
When I was resizing the host columns (for content fit), I ended up shrinking
the one that contained the nested column (left-most column). I thought I'd
simply reduce the size of the nested table, but the host column wouldn't let
me at it. I even tried to change, using table properties, but that wouldn't
work either. I ended up having to resize all the host table's columns, in
order to get at the nested column to resize.

To work around it, I ended up inserting ghost columns on the left and right
of the nested table, which I had originally wanted to just be one column.

I don't mind taking the extra time to effectively work with the tables, but
I'm still concerned with it all. I really do want to achieve the same look
that I had with frames ... i.e., click a link on the left and have it
display on the right. Murray, who responded to my request, suggests that I
won't be able to do this ... that it can only be setup to open a "new
window" when a link is clicked. Is this really true. I really hope it
isn't.

Thanks. Diana

I recommend tables over frames.

For each link that you insert in the menu, set the target value to _top,
this will replace the
current browser content with the content of the link.

It take a little time and effort to work with tables effectively. How did
you get a nested table to
be larger than the cell you inserted into?

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Diana,

You have another option to consider...

Use tables to structure your page layout, then use a IFrame to display the content of the link,
however to a certain degree your user will still face the same negative effects of using frames.

Can you publish/upload to internet and then provide a URL to what you have attempted to do so far
with your table layout?

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[DianaH]

This site, is one that I changed from frames to nested tables just two
nights ago. The leftmost column is ready to add links, but the
content/links for that menu isn't ready yet.
http://members.shaw.ca/cappysmartband/

I'm getting ready to create/upload a photo gallery for the site and just
realized that I might not be able to have it display on the right, the way
that I want it. Where the schedule is now (you'll see what I mean) is where
I'd want the gallery to display. I would add a link to allow the members to
go back to seeing the schedule, instead of the photos.

I hope this isn't confusing.
I'll look up what an IFrame is. Meanwhile, I've got to take off to attend a
rehearsal, so I'll check back in a few hours again.
Diana

Diana,

You have another option to consider...

Use tables to structure your page layout, then use a IFrame to display the
content of the link,
however to a certain degree your user will still face the same negative
effects of using frames.

Can you publish/upload to internet and then provide a URL to what you have
attempted to do so far
with your table layout?

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Murray]

Diana:

Before you decide to use frames, you need to know the black hole you are
stepping into, and dragging your visitors with....

http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php

 

[Murray]

Yes - that's right.

--
Murray

And if users has JavaScript disabled....

Target values as far as I know can not be disabled.
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[DianaH]

Well, Murray, it was an interesting read. I was already aware of most of
those shortcomings as I've run into them. Refreshing has been a big issue.
For sure, the scrolling issue and size of the frames on various pc's is a
horrible issue that I'd prefer to not have to deal with. There are definite
issues between the various browsers.

Now I'm trying to wrap my head around the difference between an inline frame
and any other frame. Perhaps they are the same with a difference!
Diana


Diana:

Before you decide to use frames, you need to know the black hole you are
stepping into, and dragging your visitors with....

http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php

 

[Murray]

Inline frames do not require a containing frameset - they are rendered in
the flow of the code on your page, as if you had a page embedded within a
page. They have all the same problems as do frames, with the additional one
of browser support (NN4x won't do them at all, although this may not be
important to you).

Why are you resistant to the notion of just linking pages together? Go to
my site -
http://www.great-web-sights.com, and navigate between pages. They load very
quickly, and it is as if only the content is changing, no?

 

[DianaH]

Thanks for your diligence, Murray.

I've looked at your site and will try to determine what you've done in what
follows.
Did you create several pages that look the same but have different content?
There's a definite micro-shift when clicking on the links, however, the
content does have the illusion of providing a menu that remains static while
the content on the right changes ... illusionary frames (as I would put it
.... lol).

Now I'll ask a question in an area that I don't know anything about, and
very definitely need to learn. Did you use Cascading Style Sheets? -
stupid question ... I know, I know!!! I haven't ventured there yet and I
know I need to. If I can nail the very very basics of how they work ...
then I move into high gear very quickly. If you know of a site that
explains this concept in simple terms ... then I'll fly with it.

Also ... did you use javascript and if so, is there script out there that I
can grab ... without "stealing"? I don't know the language, but I often
hear that people use it for various effects/features.

Thanks again for your time.
Diana

Inline frames do not require a containing frameset - they are rendered in
the flow of the code on your page, as if you had a page embedded within a
page. They have all the same problems as do frames, with the additional one
of browser support (NN4x won't do them at all, although this may not be
important to you).

Why are you resistant to the notion of just linking pages together? Go to
my site -
http://www.great-web-sights.com, and navigate between pages. They load very
quickly, and it is as if only the content is changing, no?

 

[Murray]

however, the

content does have the illusion of providing a menu that remains static
while
the content on the right changes ... illusionary frames (as I would put it
... lol).

Each link points to a new page. The reason you don't notice this is that
all of the graphic content (and there isn't much), and all of the CSS (and
there's quite a bit of that) and javascript are downloaded when you get to
the first page, and then subsequently used from the cache on your local hard
drive. The HTML code on the pages themselves is really VERY slim, and is
mostly just content.

Did you use Cascading Style Sheets?

Indeed I did. The site is made using what's called CSS-P (CSS positioning).
This allows me to use very simple body markup just to hold and identify the
content, and the CSS determines where it's placed on the page, and what it
looks like when it gets there.

If you know of a site that
explains this concept in simple terms

I would start at http://www.bignosebird.com for this. Come back for more -
I have a few others.

Also ... did you use javascript and if so, is there script out there that
I
can grab ... without "stealing"?

Actually, there is very little javascript on the page (only the automatic
date, and the copyright date). The rollovers in the menu are all CSS driven
rollovers.

Thanks again for your time.

You're welcome!

 

[DianaH]

Thanks for the info Murray.
I'll definitely read up on the CSS-P (CSS Positioning) and CSS - or whatever
it is on that site you provided.

I've known all along that I would eventually need to learn CSS and certainly
don't resist it, but wanted to do things the long way first. Unfortunately
.... with everything else that I do, I don't get a lot of time at any one
time to sit and study what I want and need to learn for this stuff. If it's
any consolation, I try for too long to try and figure these things out
myself before I ask for help. At least that way, I know what's worked and
what hasn't.

I'm glad you sent your site url for me to peruse. I had misunderstood your
earlier explanations re: setting up the page to open other pages. I thought
(all along) that you were referring to a new window (and I didn't want that)
but it wasn't want you intended at all, so I'm more than relieved.
Diana

however, the
content does have the illusion of providing a menu that remains static
while
the content on the right changes ... illusionary frames (as I would put it
... lol).

Each link points to a new page. The reason you don't notice this is that
all of the graphic content (and there isn't much), and all of the CSS (and
there's quite a bit of that) and javascript are downloaded when you get to
the first page, and then subsequently used from the cache on your local hard
drive. The HTML code on the pages themselves is really VERY slim, and is
mostly just content.

Did you use Cascading Style Sheets?

Indeed I did. The site is made using what's called CSS-P (CSS positioning).
This allows me to use very simple body markup just to hold and identify the
content, and the CSS determines where it's placed on the page, and what it
looks like when it gets there.

If you know of a site that
explains this concept in simple terms

I would start at http://www.bignosebird.com for this. Come back for more -
I have a few others.

Also ... did you use javascript and if so, is there script out there that
I
can grab ... without "stealing"?

Actually, there is very little javascript on the page (only the automatic
date, and the copyright date). The rollovers in the menu are all CSS driven
rollovers.

Thanks again for your time.

You're welcome!