Newbie question about searching...

[Carmen Gauvin-O'Donnell]

....I've imported a PDF document into one note (some handwritten notes I had
scanned), but when I do a search on one of the words in it, it isn't found,
even though I can see the word right there (and my Tablet doesn't usually
have a hard time recognizing my handwriting or anything...).

What am I missing? Am I supposed to import stuff in another way?

Thanks in advance!

Carmen

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

OneNote 2003 or 2007?

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[Grant Robertson]

...I've imported a PDF document into one note (some handwritten notes I had
scanned), but when I do a search on one of the words in it, it isn't found,
even though I can see the word right there (and my Tablet doesn't usually
have a hard time recognizing my handwriting or anything...).

What am I missing? Am I supposed to import stuff in another way?

You're right, it is a newbie question. And one that has been answered
before. But not too terribly recently so it is worth answering again.

Neither version of OneNote (or any other ink aware applications) can
simply recognize a PICTURE of your handwriting. They can only recognize
handwriting that you wrote directly into the application using a Tablet
PC. There is a huge difference between what Microsoft calls "ink" and
just lines on the screen that look like handwriting. "Ink" has a ton of
extra information hidden in it about how you drew each stroke. How fast
you went up or down or over. How fast you drew this loop verses that one.
It is only with this extra information that a Tablet PC is able to
recognize the handwriting.

The picture of your handwriting that you scanned in is not "ink." It is
just, well, a picture of handwriting.

If you are not using a Tablet PC, the next newbie question you may want
to ask is how can you enter "ink" without a Tablet PC. You can't. There
are no drivers you can install. You cannot just plug in a Waccom
digitizing tablet into a regular PC and install the Tablet PC version of
Windows XP or even the extensions. It has been asked a hundred times and
the answer is always, "No." Microsoft did a very good job of making sure
it is impossible.

Now Vista may be another matter. I have heard tell that Vista has all the
Tablet PC functionality included in all editions. However, I don't know
if you can just plug in a digitizing tablet and write in "ink." Someone
here or in the Vista beta newsgroups may be able to tell you. I can tell
you that even Vista will not be able to recognize a picture of
handwriting. It will still need "ink."

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are some programs such as
Adobe Acrobat that will let you write in your own handwriting using a
pencil tool. These programs are not "ink" aware. The handwriting is just
lines on the page, not true "ink." Any program that is truly "ink aware"
will be sure to let you know in their marketing materials.

 

[Carmen Gauvin-O'Donnell]

2003.

C.

OneNote 2003 or 2007?

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 Beta 2 Technical Refresh (B2TR):
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...I've imported a PDF document into one note (some handwritten notes I
had
scanned), but when I do a search on one of the words in it, it isn't
found,
even though I can see the word right there (and my Tablet doesn't usually
have a hard time recognizing my handwriting or anything...).

What am I missing? Am I supposed to import stuff in another way?

Thanks in advance!

Carmen

 

[Carmen Gauvin-O'Donnell]

You're right, it is a newbie question. And one that has been answered
before. But not too terribly recently so it is worth answering again.

Neither version of OneNote (or any other ink aware applications) can
simply recognize a PICTURE of your handwriting. They can only recognize
handwriting that you wrote directly into the application using a Tablet
PC. There is a huge difference between what Microsoft calls "ink" and
just lines on the screen that look like handwriting. "Ink" has a ton of
extra information hidden in it about how you drew each stroke. How fast
you went up or down or over. How fast you drew this loop verses that one.
It is only with this extra information that a Tablet PC is able to
recognize the handwriting.

[snip]

Okay, so I have a Tablet. Is there a way to *make it* recognizable?

Thanks again.
C.

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

Yes, write directly in OneNote with your pen.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 Beta 2 Technical Refresh (B2TR):
http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/09/18/43
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OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed

You're right, it is a newbie question. And one that has been answered
before. But not too terribly recently so it is worth answering again.

Neither version of OneNote (or any other ink aware applications) can
simply recognize a PICTURE of your handwriting. They can only recognize
handwriting that you wrote directly into the application using a Tablet
PC. There is a huge difference between what Microsoft calls "ink" and
just lines on the screen that look like handwriting. "Ink" has a ton of
extra information hidden in it about how you drew each stroke. How fast
you went up or down or over. How fast you drew this loop verses that one.
It is only with this extra information that a Tablet PC is able to
recognize the handwriting.

[snip]

Okay, so I have a Tablet. Is there a way to *make it* recognizable?

Thanks again.
C.

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

I don't even know whether 2003 supported OCR for printouts...

Sorry,

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
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2003.

C.

OneNote 2003 or 2007?

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 Beta 2 Technical Refresh (B2TR):
http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/09/18/43
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
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...I've imported a PDF document into one note (some handwritten notes I
had
scanned), but when I do a search on one of the words in it, it isn't
found,
even though I can see the word right there (and my Tablet doesn't usually
have a hard time recognizing my handwriting or anything...).

What am I missing? Am I supposed to import stuff in another way?

Thanks in advance!

Carmen

 

[Grant Robertson]

Okay, so I have a Tablet. Is there a way to *make it* recognizable?

No. It is not "ink." It never will be "ink." It is a picture of
handwriting. That is all it will ever be. There are no programs that can
look at the picture and convert it to ink. How in the world is it
supposed to deduce all that extra information that I told you is included
with "ink" but not in your picture of handwriting? Perhaps sometime in
the future someone will figure out a way to universally recognize
handwriting based on nothing but a picture of the handwriting but don't
expect that for quite a few years.

OneNote 2003 will not even do OCR in pictures of plain text, though
OneNote 2007 will. (But only plain text, NOT handwriting, no matter how
badly you want it to.)

I'm sure you have quite a bit of this scanned-in handwriting that you
thought you would be able to just paste into OneNote and have it be
recognized so you wouldn't have to transcribe it all. Well, guess what?
You are out of luck. If you really need to be able to search for text in
those documents then you really will need to just sit down and type them
all in by hand. That's it, that's all. There are no secret tricks that
people are not telling you. What you want is just not possible with the
technology we have today.

Sorry to sound harsh, but these threads always devolve into the original
poster making all kinds of arguments as to why it SHOULD be possible
because they have a lot of documents to transcribe and they don't have
time to type it all in. They try to guess at a bunch of things that they
think might help based on a complete misunderstanding of how the
technology works and we have to keep saying, "No, that won't work
either." They always act as if we are holding out on them and we have to
repeatedly tell them it just isn't possible in a half dozen different
ways before they finally give up begging and arguing. So, I am just
trying to nip that in the bud.

 

[Pierre]

time to type it all in. They try to guess at a bunch of things that they
think might help based on a complete misunderstanding of how the
technology works and we have to keep saying, "No, that won't work
either." They always act as if we are holding out on them and we have to
repeatedly tell them it just isn't possible in a half dozen different
ways before they finally give up begging and arguing. So, I am just

With all due respect Grant, I think that's the problem with computers and
software today. People like you and I, who know the technology and say things
like "it doesn't work that way", are designing applications. Who cares how
the technology works? it should do something useful, and not tie a user to
its limits. This is a very useful application, and I think very reasonable to
expect. It shouldn't be shot down because it's from a newbie. Designers
should listen to newbies much more often in my opinion. I think that every
time I watch my (very inexperienced) Mom try to do something on her PC...
"why can't I do that? I should be able to".. "You know what Mom? you're
right". But I only think that way if I take my technology hat off.

Why the heck should a user have to understand the difference between "ink"
and "picture of ink"? why should it make a difference? The problem is that
you and I accept that it can't be done because we "understand" the
technology. And that's why the SW makers will never get it: they listen to
you and I, and not the newbies.

It was a great question.

Rant over.

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

A computer is not a wonder-machine. The reason why there is a difference
between digital ink and the picture of ink is technical. Simply put,
recognizing ink as picture as text is a really difficult problem, that
we don't have a good solution to yet. Computer scientists (=we) just
haven't found a great way yet to do it.
Recognizing digital ink as text however is a problem that we figured out
how to do.
The problem doesn't lay in that we want to draw an arbitrary
distinction, the problem simply lays in the fact that we can't do one of
the problems yet.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
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http://pschmid.net
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[Rainald Taesler]

A computer is not a wonder-machine. The reason why there is a
difference between digital ink and the picture of ink is technical.
Simply put, recognizing ink as picture as text is a really difficult
problem, that we don't have a good solution to yet. Computer
scientists (=we) just haven't found a great way yet to do it.
Recognizing digital ink as text however is a problem that we figured
out how to do.
The problem doesn't lay in that we want to draw an arbitrary
distinction, the problem simply lays in the fact that we can't do
one
of the problems yet.

"Well roared, Lion"
(Shakespeare, A Midsummernight's dream).

I fully agree. We can be really be glad on the results of scientific
research in the field of the recognition of graphical patterns, which
meanwhile work fine in OCR software reading "printed" letters (given
the font is not too exotic).
And we can be glad about the progress of handling ink - worlds between
the early Apple Newton (which unfortunately they dropped too early)
and a current TabletPC.
But no way so far for recognizing handwritten documents. A lot of
research
in computer sciences needed and AFAICS not even a small line on the
dark horizon :-(

Rainald

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

I fully agree. We can be really be glad on the results of scientific

research in the field of the recognition of graphical patterns, which
meanwhile work fine in OCR software reading "printed" letters (given
the font is not too exotic).

The professor whose office is next to my lab could give you an hour-long
lecture on why OCR is not fine, and why all existing OCR software
approaches the problem in the completely wrong way...


Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
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[Carmen Gauvin-O'Donnell]

Okay, so I have a Tablet. Is there a way to *make it* recognizable?

[snip]
Sorry to sound harsh, but these threads always devolve into the original
poster making all kinds of arguments as to why it SHOULD be possible
because they have a lot of documents to transcribe and they don't have
time to type it all in. They try to guess at a bunch of things that they
think might help based on a complete misunderstanding of how the
technology works and we have to keep saying, "No, that won't work
either." They always act as if we are holding out on them and we have to
repeatedly tell them it just isn't possible in a half dozen different
ways before they finally give up begging and arguing. So, I am just
trying to nip that in the bud.

I can see why, but as a matter of netiquette, I'd appreciate it if you could
assume that not everyone who posts here is a petulant chi1d trying to get
his own way? I am just a new user (and a really nice one too!) who is
excited about this tech. All I did was ask a question...Isn't that the point
behind these newsgroups?

C.

 

[Grant Robertson]

I'd appreciate it if you could
assume that not everyone who posts here is a petulant chi1d trying to get
his own way? I am just a new user (and a really nice one too!) who is
excited about this tech. All I did was ask a question...Isn't that the point
behind these newsgroups?

Well, I didn't say you WERE a petulant child. I was simply making things
abundantly clear IN CASE you were a petulant child. Also, when I write, I
write for a larger audience than just the original poster. I write for
all those people who may search for and find this topic later. That topic
came up many times when OneNote first came out and ALWAYS devolved into
what was essentially a begging contest. The topic hasn't come up in a
long time so I thought it would be good to attempt to capsulize the
entire standard conversation in one message. This gives future readers
everything they need to know in one message and reduces further chatter.
Also, if I just lay it on the line then the original poster, you, can
save time by giving up what is a lost cause early and moving on to what
WILL work.

Finally, I am not obligated to be sweetness and nice to anybody. I post
good information with only the occasional mistake by confusing all the
different versions I have used. I do not just repeat Microsoft rhetoric
or try to cover the flaws in the product by saying it is a feature or
that it is perfectly normal to need to do five things in order to
accomplish one. While I do say many things that certain people don't
like, I do not flame or personally attack anyone. Even when in a heated
argument, I do not resort to personal attacks or stray from the topic at
hand. There are many articles about netiquette out there on the web. I
have even been called a jerk for refering people to them on occasion.
None of those articles, to my knowledge, claim that anyone is required to
try to make everyone else think they are the nicest person in the world.

 

[Rainald Taesler]

The professor whose office is next to my lab could give you an
hour-long lecture on why OCR is not fine, and why all existing OCR
software approaches the problem in the completely wrong way...

I won't doubt that at all ;-)

There always is a difference in what works practically and the way
professors would like things to work ... <bg>
(says the undersigned professor [who is no computer "scientist", only
working in the filed of BIT]).

Rainald

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

The professor I meant basically invented the field of document
recognition...

The professor whose office is next to my lab could give you an
hour-long lecture on why OCR is not fine, and why all existing OCR
software approaches the problem in the completely wrong way...

I won't doubt that at all ;-)

There always is a difference in what works practically and the way
professors would like things to work ... <bg>
(says the undersigned professor [who is no computer "scientist", only
working in the filed of BIT]).

Rainald

 

[Rainald Taesler]

The professor whose office is next to my lab could give you an
hour-long lecture on why OCR is not fine, and why all existing
OCR
software approaches the problem in the completely wrong way...

I won't doubt that at all ;-)

There always is a difference in what works practically and the way
professors would like things to work ... <bg>
(says the undersigned professor [who is no computer "scientist",
only
working in the filed of BIT]).

The professor I meant basically invented the field of document
recognition...

I did not at all raise any doubt on the expertise of your Prof.!
Just the opposite!
But as you said a while ago, obviously it's not easy when to Germans
are communicating in English and the subtle nunaces can not be seen
....

Rainald

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

The professor whose office is next to my lab could give you an

hour-long lecture on why OCR is not fine, and why all existing
OCR
software approaches the problem in the completely wrong way...

I won't doubt that at all ;-)

There always is a difference in what works practically and the way
professors would like things to work ... <bg>
(says the undersigned professor [who is no computer "scientist",
only
working in the filed of BIT]).

The professor I meant basically invented the field of document
recognition...

I did not at all raise any doubt on the expertise of your Prof.!
Just the opposite!
But as you said a while ago, obviously it's not easy when to Germans
are communicating in English and the subtle nunaces can not be seen
...

Yep, nuisances are tricky...

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
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