Numbering anomalies

[Bruce]

Word 2000, Windows XP. I have documents with outline
numbering set up as styles, the first level based on no
style and each lower level based on the previous one. If
I need to make a change to, say, level 4 numbering, I get
there by way of Format > Style > Modify > Format >
Numbering > Customize. Within the numbering dialogue I
have linked levels to styles. However, if I change
something like the indent at level 4, then click OK > OK
(add to template) > Apply, suddenly level 1 is linked to
the style I have named for level 4. (I did not modify
Heading styles, but rather created my own from scratch.
That was probably a mistake, since Heading styles seem to
be the only way to (maybe) get consistent results from
outline numbering in Word 2000, but I did not know that at
the time.) This results in no numbers at the first level
(probably because it is set to restart numbering after
level 3), and the rest of the numbering is messed up as a
result. I can go into the numbering dialogue in Format >
Style, etc. to change it back to what it should be, but
does anybody know why this is happening? I have not
applied manual formatting to any of the document, by the
way. In fact, I think I have followed every possible
instruction (and there are lots). The whole structure of
cascading numbering styles is rather a house of cards, it
seems.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Have you linked each level to a style? Do you always go into Format | Style
| Modify | Format | Numbering through the top-level style? See
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://www.mvps.org/word
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Bruce]

When you say "through the top level style", do you mean
that I should click in my level 1 style before I go to
Format > Style > etc.? When the cursor is in a level 4
paragraph and I go to Format > Style > ... Numbering to
make changes, everything looks fine in the numbering
dialogue, except that when I change the Level 4 style the
first level of outline numbering becomes linked to the
Level 4 style. It definitely has a buggy feel to it. If
I modify the Level 2 style (through Format > Style >
etc.), same thing, except that the top level of the
outline numbering scheme is now linked to the Level 2
Style.
Among the most puzzling things about all of this is that
when I go to Format > Style ... Numbering, all or most of
the options are linked in some way or other to what I am
attempting to do. In other words, default numbering
schemes have been customized, but through no known input
of mine.
I should probably have used the default heading styles as
a starting point. The reason I didn't is that I need to
use several different approaches to outline numbering, and
I wanted to name them according to the type of document.
My approach was to format the paragraph, then name the
style, then go into Format > Style and base my style on No
Style. I also do other formatting there. Each subsequent
level is based on the one before.
I realize that I could probably have a different template
for each type of document and forget about naming the
styles, but I keep thinking there is a way I can use
descriptive names.
I think in the future I will try something like creating a
new style (based on No Style) through Format > Style, with
the intention of later applying outline numbering. I will
then create a new style based on that one, etc. until I
have enough levels of numbering. After that I will format
Level 1 numbering, and in the same dialog box link the
other levels of numbering to the newly named styles.
I don't know if this will do the trick, but I am beginning
to get a handle on this, and have a little better sense of
what might work. It doesn't need to be this difficult.
It is no wonder that so many people just give up on some
of this.
Thank you again for your assistance.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Never go directly to Format | Bullets and Numbering; always go through
Format | Style and always through the top-level style (Level 1), and always
through the List Gallery pane that is already selected (even if others
display similar numbering). You don't have to use the built-in heading
styles, though there are advantages to doing so (see
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/UseBuiltInHeadingStyles.html), but
you do have to set up the outline-numbered list as described in Shauna's
article. And note that indents (left, hanging, first line) cannot be set
from Format | Paragraph for numbered styles; they must be set in the
Numbering dialog.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://www.mvps.org/word
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Bruce Brown]

Bruce -

Suzanne is right about going through the level 1 style to access the
numbering dialog, regardless of the level you wish to edit.

To do what you want to do, namely, three outline numbering schemes in
one template, you could create three named list templates, then switch
among them by linking/unlinking the built-in Heading styles. But that
means VBA code, dialog boxes and possible user confusion.

I think you did the right thing by creating your own outline numbered
styles named after the document type. However, you may have not have
gone about it in the right order. Let me tell you what steps, in what
order, *always* work for me when doing this manually. (Apologies if
you're doing this already, some readers won't know how.)

* Create the new styles first. Base them on Normal or Body Text and
link each to itself. Apply each as it's created to some sample text.

* Don't change any attributes yet.

* Click on the first level style to access the numbering dialog via
Format > Numbering. The None window should be framed. At this point
it's a good idea to re-set each window.

* Click the window that most resembles the numbering scheme you need,
then click Customize.

* In the list template dialog, link each level used to one of your new
styles and name the list template in the ListNum field list box using
the same name as the styles. Leftover levels you don't need should be
set for numbering style (none), Indent at 0, Align at 0, Follow number
with Nothing.

* Before leaving the numbering dialog, change the number styles, font
attributes and indents to those you need for the paragraph numbers.

* After OK, OK the sample text snaps into shape, numbered and indented
as you specified. Now it's time to change each style individually, if
necessary, to modify font attributes.

There's no reason you can't link the built-in Heading styles to a
named list template the same way.

Why name the list templates? Because it's free and you can use the
name for VBA macros and LISTNUM fields later on.

There are different schools about basing outline-numbered styles on
one another. I prefer to base them on Normal or Body Text for three
reasons: (i) Microsoft itself bases the nine Heading styles on
Normal; (ii) based on Normal, each outline-numbered style is
independent of the others and can't effect another's settings; and
(iii) I've never seen a numbering thread that says, "Help! I based
all my Heading styles on Normal and it ruined everything!"

It's true that you lose the cascading effect when editing, but it's
not that burdensome to make changes (almost always font attributes) on
each individual style. Anyway, that's only one person's opinion and
plenty of sophisticated users prefer the cascade method. - Bruce

 

[Bruce]

Thanks to both. If there is one main point I am getting
from discussions of outline numbering and styles, it is
that the whole system is very sensitive to a particular
order of steps.
By the way, there is a known Word 2000 problem
(http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-
us;210104) with outline numbering and tabs that has to do
with default tab stops being retained after customizing
outline numbering. It can be quite a vexing problem.
As for basing styles on Normal or on no style, I still
have not figured out exactly what happens when the
document is opened on a computer that has Normal defined
differently, but my general experience has been that it
can create problems (at least I think it could be the
culprit, but it is often difficult to discover the root of
problems).

-----Original Message-----
Bruce -

Suzanne is right about going through the level 1 style to access the
numbering dialog, regardless of the level you wish to edit.

To do what you want to do, namely, three outline numbering schemes in
one template, you could create three named list templates, then switch
among them by linking/unlinking the built-in Heading styles. But that
means VBA code, dialog boxes and possible user confusion.

I think you did the right thing by creating your own outline numbered
styles named after the document type. However, you may have not have
gone about it in the right order. Let me tell you what steps, in what
order, *always* work for me when doing this manually. (Apologies if
you're doing this already, some readers won't know how.)

* Create the new styles first. Base them on Normal or Body Text and
link each to itself. Apply each as it's created to some sample text.

* Don't change any attributes yet.

* Click on the first level style to access the numbering dialog via
Format > Numbering. The None window should be framed. At this point
it's a good idea to re-set each window.

* Click the window that most resembles the numbering scheme you need,
then click Customize.

* In the list template dialog, link each level used to one of your new
styles and name the list template in the ListNum field list box using
the same name as the styles. Leftover levels you don't need should be
set for numbering style (none), Indent at 0, Align at 0, Follow number
with Nothing.

* Before leaving the numbering dialog, change the number styles, font
attributes and indents to those you need for the paragraph numbers.

* After OK, OK the sample text snaps into shape, numbered and indented
as you specified. Now it's time to change each style individually, if
necessary, to modify font attributes.

There's no reason you can't link the built-in Heading styles to a
named list template the same way.

Why name the list templates? Because it's free and you can use the
name for VBA macros and LISTNUM fields later on.

There are different schools about basing outline-numbered styles on
one another. I prefer to base them on Normal or Body Text for three
reasons: (i) Microsoft itself bases the nine Heading styles on
Normal; (ii) based on Normal, each outline-numbered style is
independent of the others and can't effect another's settings; and
(iii) I've never seen a numbering thread that says, "Help! I based
all my Heading styles on Normal and it ruined everything!"

It's true that you lose the cascading effect when editing, but it's
not that burdensome to make changes (almost always font attributes) on
each individual style. Anyway, that's only one person's opinion and
plenty of sophisticated users prefer the cascade method. - Bruce




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" <[email protected]> wrote in

http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/UseBuiltInHeading
Styles.html), but

 

[Word Heretic]

G'day "Bruce" <[email protected]>,

if you use VBA to set the properties you don't get the problem
described below.

Thanks to both. If there is one main point I am getting
from discussions of outline numbering and styles, it is
that the whole system is very sensitive to a particular
order of steps.
By the way, there is a known Word 2000 problem
(http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-
us;210104) with outline numbering and tabs that has to do
with default tab stops being retained after customizing
outline numbering. It can be quite a vexing problem.
As for basing styles on Normal or on no style, I still
have not figured out exactly what happens when the
document is opened on a computer that has Normal defined
differently, but my general experience has been that it
can create problems (at least I think it could be the
culprit, but it is often difficult to discover the root of
problems).
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/UseBuiltInHeading
Styles.html), but

Steve Hudson

Word Heretic, Sydney, Australia
Tricky stuff with Word or words for you.
Email (e-mail address removed)
Products http://www.geocities.com/word_heretic/products.html

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