Office 2004 and 2008 co habitate well?

[gibsonm]

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Intel

Hi,

I have a client who has been forced to remain on Office 2004 after you yanked VBA support from Office 2008.

They currently use Apple Mail (10.5.6) and are having issues with it and IMAP.

They have licence for Office 2008.

Can we install Entourage 2008 (deleting Word, Excel, etc.) and use it with IMAP whilst retaining the rest of Office 2004 on the same machine?

That is have Entourage 2008 in one folder and Word, Excel and PowerPoint 2004 in another??

Regards,

Mark

 

[Diane Ross]

Can we install Entourage 2008 (deleting Word, Excel, etc.) and use it with
IMAP whilst retaining the rest of Office 2004 on the same machine?

Yes, BUT.....

I would not delete the other applications in Office 2008. This could result
in failed updates. If you check the actual size of the applications they
don't take up that much space. If they are that low on space, you need to
address freeing up space or replacing the hd.

Just be sure Office 2004 is installed first, then Office 2008. After you
update you can actually open both versions of Entourage at the same time.
This can be helpful for the setup phase, but after that only use Entourage
2008.

Each version of Entourage installs it's own Identity folder. Each version of
Office is installed in it's own folder. You will also need both Microsoft
AutoUpdaters.

VBA is returning in the next version.

 

[gibsonm]

OK so if I keep both how do I ensure that when they double click on a Word file they open the older version. (I'm not too worried about "failed updates" as the update process in Office 2008 seems fundamentally flawed anyway).

I don't want them starting to create .docx files (let alone complaining that all their macros don't work - because they launched the wrong version)?

I know I can set the file properties but I'd rather go with the fail safe option of only one version of Word being there.

Also I'm not sure how keeping the old Entourage helps with "the setup" phase since they are moving from Apple MAil to Entourage 2008?

As for VBA returning I'll believe it when I see it and even then I suspect I wont be able to persuade the client to upgrade (as they got their fingers burnt buying maintenance last time around).

 

[Diane Ross]

OK so if I keep both how do I ensure that when they double click on a Word
file they open the older version. (I'm not too worried about "failed updates"
as the update process in Office 2008 seems fundamentally flawed anyway).

Sorry you made this decision., I hope you inform your client you are making
work they will have to pay extra because they can't update.

I don't want them starting to create .docx files (let alone complaining that
all their macros don't work - because they launched the wrong version)?

If you do launch the newer versions. The OS changes to the new as default.
The Word newsgroup will be better able to advice you on managing this.

I know I can set the file properties but I'd rather go with the fail safe
option of only one version of Word being there.

Also I'm not sure how keeping the old Entourage helps with "the setup" phase
since they are moving from Apple MAil to Entourage 2008?

You didn't mention that.

 

[William Smith [MVP]]

I have a client who has been forced to remain on Office 2004 after
you yanked VBA support from Office 2008.

No one here yanked anything. You're not speaking to Microsoft here. This
is a peer-to-peer newsgroup where Entourage users help other Entourage
users.

They currently use Apple Mail (10.5.6) and are having issues with it
and IMAP.

They have licence for Office 2008.

Can we install Entourage 2008 (deleting Word, Excel, etc.) and use it
with IMAP whilst retaining the rest of Office 2004 on the same
machine?

That is have Entourage 2008 in one folder and Word, Excel and
PowerPoint 2004 in another??

Yes, the two versions can exist side-by-side so long as you're not
running different versions of the same apps at the same time. Keep in
mind that features in Word, Excel and PowerPoint may not be able to take
advantage of the different version of Entourage such as the address
book, mail merge, etc.

Hope this helps!

--

bill

Entourage Help Page <http://entourage.mvps.org/>
Entourage Help Blog <http://blog.entourage.mvps.org/>
YouTalk <http://nine.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/youtalk>
Twitter: follow <http://twitter.com/meck>

 

[gibsonm]

Sorry you made this decision., I hope you inform your client you are making
work they will have to pay extra because they can't update.

Well I suspect it will work out the same by the time one removes Office 2008 and reinstalls it again or manually edits the installer every time a patch comes out (as I've found with other clients who did "upgrade".

But this is something I need to consider as part of the implementation.

At least it appears to be possible.

The other option is to go to a completely different mail application but I was hoping to get some value from the 2008 upgrade that they bought but hadn't been able to use at yet to date.

If you do launch the newer versions. The OS changes to the new as default.
The Word newsgroup will be better able to advice you on managing this.

You didn't mention that.

Sorry but I did say they were moving from Apple Mail to Entourage 2008 but in any event Entourage 2004 isn't involved.

 

[gibsonm]

No one here yanked anything. You're not speaking to Microsoft here. This
is a peer-to-peer newsgroup where Entourage users help other Entourage
users.

Ah sorry, my mistake.

 

[Barry Wainwright]

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Intel

Hi,

I have a client who has been forced to remain on Office 2004 after you yanked VBA support from Office 2008.

They currently use Apple Mail (10.5.6) and are having issues with it and IMAP.

They have licence for Office 2008.

Can we install Entourage 2008 (deleting Word, Excel, etc.) and use it with IMAP whilst retaining the rest of Office 2004 on the same machine?

That is have Entourage 2008 in one folder and Word, Excel and PowerPoint 2004 in another??

Regards,

Mark

Since they already have a license for Office 2004, would it not be
easier and safer to let them use Entourage 2004 instead of installing
Entourage 2008?

 

[Kerry]

Just to jump back to your original reason to install 2008 - you
mentioned Apple Mail wasn't working properly with IMAP. Apple Mail has
no problem with IMAP. I have it set up to work with both Gmail and
Fastmail and a while back AOL. These are/were all setup as IMAP. There
is 0 problem. I also have Entourage 2008 and had 2004 setup to work
with IMAP and there is 0 problem. I think you have chosen to install
2008 for the wrong reason. If the user needs VBA just have 2004
installed and use Apple Mail for mail as it sounds like all you need
Entourage to do is mail. This isn't a good use of Entourage. Apple
Mail is actually more robust than Entourage. Where Entourage excels is
if you need linking, categorization, managing projects and sophistical
searches (mimicks SQL to some degree where mail is indexed text
searches that can use boolean operators and smartfolders). If you have
both running I think you're just asking for trouble and Entourage 2008
has problems. A number of users, after upgrading to 2008, reverted
back to 2004. Finally, the MACBU manager announced that one of their
goals is to put VBA back into Entourage (they realize they made a
mistake removing it). But I wouldn't hold your breath on when this
will happen as its taking Microsoft tons of time just to fix issues in
2008 let alone put something like VBA back into the product.
Definitely, for your purposes, stick with 2004 and Apple Mail.

 

[gibsonm]

Kerry,

"Apple Mail has no problem with IMAP"

Well you have had a far different experience to me and many others.

We have spent / wasted months trying to get it to work under 10.5.4, 10.5.5. and 10.5.6. Using both Apple's built in Mail Server and EIMS.

Messages lost, time outs trying to reach ports, one message resulting in multiple drafts being saved (10+).

This is no longer acceptable to a Legal firm that relies on its correspondence.

Indeed I had hoped to just use Office 2004 and Apple Mail but Apple Mail has just not cut it for them (or several other users if you look at the Mac-L list or from the number of Bug reports I know have been lodged with Apple).

I was tempted to use Entourage 2004 for this but thought they should at least try and get some use from the maintenance plan they bought that supplied them with an Office 2008 licenece that they can't use due to the lack of VBA.

Perhaps a better option is to stick with Entourage 2004 and keep it simple?

Or maybe I just bin the Office 2008 DVD and get Thunderbird or something else.

 

[Kerry]

Honestly, I just don't understand this. I've had zero problems with
Mail and IMAP. I've always had both configured to work with my IMAP
systems. The reason I do this is sometimes I want to send a news
article from the web in whole as opposed to a link. Entourage will
only support this send as a link from Safari but Mail will send the
complete page in HTML so I just go into Mail and change the default
mail program to mail and do this send then change the default back to
Entourage. I've never had a problem with mail and although Entourage
is my prime e-mail system as I manage projects, links, categories and
require its sophisticated searching I do use both. The other thing
that is maybe important to know about Mail is when you backup it backs
up the mail item created or changed whereas Entourage requires its
whole DB to be backed up (its a monolithic DB). For my purposes this
doesn't matter but for some it does. If you are really having trouble
with Mail though just use 2004. Many people, as I said, stayed with
that or reverted back to it due to the problems with 08. My only
problem with 08 is sync otherwise Entourage works well for me.
Finally, I have provided consulting services to a couple of law firms
and when I've done large corp's I've had to visit their legal
departments as part of the requirements analysis so I know the
criticality of a legal firms IT/information system/architectural
requirements. I'm not a programmer or a tech support person but I have
to work with these people on a deployment basis and I'm really careful
not to have anything implemented that could mess up critical
functions. Really, I would work with something that is stable and
preserves your core information and its history. If someone is working
with VBA, there's probably a lot of programming that's gone into that
and may affect core information. I would not move to 2008 for a
variety of reasons regardless of licensing as you jeopardize function
and potentially threaten your core data/information.

 

[Kerry]

Honestly, I just don't understand this. I've had zero problems with
Mail and IMAP. I've always had both configured to work with my IMAP
systems. The reason I do this is sometimes I want to send a news
article from the web in whole as opposed to a link. Entourage will
only support this send as a link from Safari but Mail will send the
complete page in HTML so I just go into Mail and change the default
mail program to mail and do this send then change the default back to
Entourage. I've never had a problem with mail and although Entourage
is my prime e-mail system as I manage projects, links, categories and
require its sophisticated searching I do use both. The other thing
that is maybe important to know about Mail is when you backup it backs
up the mail item created or changed whereas Entourage requires its
whole DB to be backed up (its a monolithic DB). For my purposes this
doesn't matter but for some it does. If you are really having trouble
with Mail though just use 2004. Many people, as I said, stayed with
that or reverted back to it due to the problems with 08. My only
problem with 08 is sync otherwise Entourage works well for me.
Finally, I have provided consulting services to a couple of law firms
and when I've done large corp's I've had to visit their legal
departments as part of the requirements analysis so I know the
criticality of a legal firms IT/information system/architectural
requirements. I'm not a programmer or a tech support person but I have
to work with these people on a deployment basis and I'm really careful
not to have anything implemented that could mess up critical
functions. Really, I would work with something that is stable and
preserves your core information and its history. If someone is working
with VBA, there's probably a lot of programming that's gone into that
and may affect core information. I would not move to 2008 for a
variety of reasons regardless of licensing as you jeopardize function
and potentially threaten your core data/information.

 

[Kerry]

Kerry,

"Apple Mail has no problem with IMAP"

Well you have had a far different experience to me and many others.

We have spent / wasted months trying to get it to work under 10.5.4, 10.5.5. and 10.5.6. Using both Apple's built in Mail Server and EIMS.

Messages lost, time outs trying to reach ports, one message resulting in multiple drafts being saved (10+).

This is no longer acceptable to a Legal firm that relies on its correspondence.

Indeed I had hoped to just use Office 2004 and Apple Mail but Apple Mail has just not cut it for them (or several other users if you look at the Mac-L list or from the number of Bug reports I know have been lodged with Apple).

I was tempted to use Entourage 2004 for this but thought they should at least try and get some use from the maintenance plan they bought that supplied them with an Office 2008 licenece that they can't use due to the lack of VBA.

Perhaps a better option is to stick with Entourage 2004 and keep it simple?

Or maybe I just bin the Office 2008 DVD and get Thunderbird or something else.

 

[gibsonm]

Since they already have a license for Office 2004, would it not be
easier and safer to let them use Entourage 2004 instead of installing
Entourage 2008?

Well I was hoping the Entourage 2008 might give them some improvements over Entourage 2004 in terms of mail functionality, and to get some value for the software maintenance progamme that they signed up for, but that maybe the easiest route.

This in part was why I made the original post.

 

[gibsonm]

Honestly, I just don't understand this. I've had zero problems with

Mail and IMAP. I've always had both configured to work with my IMAP
systems. The reason I do this is sometimes I want to send a news
article from the web in whole as opposed to a link. Entourage will
only support this send as a link from Safari but Mail will send the
complete page in HTML so I just go into Mail and change the default
mail program to mail and do this send then change the default back to
Entourage. I've never had a problem with mail and although Entourage
is my prime e-mail system as I manage projects, links, categories and
require its sophisticated searching I do use both. The other thing
that is maybe important to know about Mail is when you backup it backs
up the mail item created or changed whereas Entourage requires its
whole DB to be backed up (its a monolithic DB). For my purposes this
doesn't matter but for some it does. If you are really having trouble
with Mail though just use 2004. Many people, as I said, stayed with
that or reverted back to it due to the problems with 08. My only
problem with 08 is sync otherwise Entourage works well for me.
Finally, I have provided consulting services to a couple of law firms
and when I've done large corp's I've had to visit their legal
departments as part of the requirements analysis so I know the
criticality of a legal firms IT/information system/architectural
requirements. I'm not a programmer or a tech support person but I have
to work with these people on a deployment basis and I'm really careful
not to have anything implemented that could mess up critical
functions. Really, I would work with something that is stable and
preserves your core information and its history. If someone is working
with VBA, there's probably a lot of programming that's gone into that
and may affect core information. I would not move to 2008 for a
variety of reasons regardless of licensing as you jeopardize function
and potentially threaten your core data/information.

Its not that “someone is working with VBA“, the whole office uses VBA to generate signature blocks and a mass of other macros, hence upgrading to 2008 is not possible.

 

[gibsonm]

So the consensus is that the best option is to use just Entourage 2004 (as part of Office 2004) and leave the Office 2008 DVD on the shelf?

 

[Kerry]

So the consensus is that the best option is to use just Entourage 2004 (as part of Office 2004) and leave the Office 2008 DVD on the shelf?

I would say if the whole office is using VBA then your decision to
stick with ENT04 is right on. If you have a maintenance agreement with
Microsoft I'd complain (Its people like you that have the clout to
make Microsoft wake up and listen). What good is it if 1. They dropped
a critical piece of functionality that you and many other business's
use and have invested a lot of time in building (VBA - note Microsoft
has acknowledged they made a mistake but if you look at pre-release
commentary on this issue by consultants and tech reviewers you will
see that many were pre-warning Microsoft this was a huge mistake
however, Microsoft's view was to use Applescript (yeah right! When
you've coded that much in VBA and the Windows products still use VBA -
somebody was either very lazy that day when they made this decision or
was smoking some pretty good weed!). Finally, the product is quite
buggy so I'd leave it on the shelf. If you weren't using VBA code I'd
almost say its worth considering something else but on the other hand
you'd have to go through a whole learning curve which you shouldn't
have to nor spend the time, energy or money in doing. Don't feel alone
- Microsoft has let many of us down and a search through the various
forums will quickly reveal this.

 

[gibsonm]

Well we did complain to both our Microsoft rep and then went to Microsoft's office here in Sydney (and we took our Apple technology Manager with us).

We were basically told "suck it up" and "take what you are given" "be happy that we bothered to give you a Mac version" (2 of those are direct quotes).

After the meeting the Apple guy apologised profusely and we started looking at Open Office to replace Microsoft's kludge in due course.

 

[Kerry]

we started looking at Open Office to replace Microsoft's kludge in due course.<

Good for you. Microsoft's response to you is pathetic and without
excuse. I must admit, when I talked to a supervisor at Microsoft in
late Jan or early Feb of 08 about the issues that I and many others
were uncovering in Ent08, primarily around sync at that time, she did
say to me that the Mac was a small part of Microsoft's business. I
took exception to that comment and then escalated to a higher level
and stated that it was the Mac environment that built the foundation
for Office on Windows and has been a lucrative part of their business.
In more recent times, Microsoft has been more candid with me and
apologetic around the problems in 08 and have advised me but not in a
condescending fashion, that it would probably be best to use an
alternative solution until they get it fixed. Their feeling is that
this is causing too much pain/taking too much time for me and others
in my boat to keep it running and running safely without damaging
information. Since I work for myself, I can work around some things as
I'm only putting myself in jeopardy but your technology manager is
making a good decision as he has to ensure the usability and safety of
the information that is produced in your firm.

What Microsoft said to you though does impart one thing that I am
concerned about; that they are still using their industry,
overbearing, strong arm tactics and that the Mac's ascendance is of
concern to them and pulling the plug on Office would of course hurt
the Mac. Fortunately, they are under the watchful eye of the
competitive watchdogs in the States and more particularly the EU.
They've already run into tons of problems on the anti-competitive
front, have been fined millions of dollars in the EU and I would
suspect that may help keep them in check. But their behavior,
historically, has often suggested otherwise so what happened with you
does suggest a reason to be concerned.

 

[Sue Donum]

(e-mail address removed), Kerry at
(e-mail address removed) wrote on 1/14/09 10:25 PM:

[snip]

and pulling the plug on Office would of course hurt
the Mac.

Do you really think so? Desktop applications aren't as necessary as they
used to be...the desktop isn't the center of the computer user's universe
any more. Besides, there are more options available for the Mac today than
before. Also, even if MS decided to stop supporting Mac applications, Mac
users who really wanted to could always run Windows applications on their
Intel Macs.

Fortunately, they are under the watchful eye of the
competitive watchdogs in the States and more particularly the EU.
They've already run into tons of problems on the anti-competitive
front, have been fined millions of dollars in the EU and I would
suspect that may help keep them in check.

I don't think that's true. During the trial here in the US, MS had the gall
to "doctor up" their PowerPoint slides, to make it seem that Explorer was
somehow "integral" to Windows. When they got caught, they essentially
blushed a little and shrugged their shoulders.

They lost the case. But, knowing how to lobby, and understanding the
political cycle at least as well as they do the business cycle, they waited
till the next election, and succeeded in getting a more "friendly" set of
ears to hear their appeal.

MS could get away with murder if it wanted to.

But their behavior,
historically, has often suggested otherwise so what happened with you
does suggest a reason to be concerned.

I wholeheartedly agree.