Office 2008 in SPACES with OS X 10.5.7

J

Jani

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Intel

Hi everyone,
after an successfull installation of the new OS X Leopard update I made some tests with word,excel and ppt windows. The whole Spaces bug seems to be fixed. The toolbox is handled like a stand alone programm but it is not messed up anymore.

I would love to hear your opinion and your experiences with Office 2008 and Spaces on the new 10.5.7 update.

Thanks a lot!
 
C

CyberTaz

I'm certainly not contradicting your findings - I've not installed the
10.5.7 update as yet - & for the sake of those who seemingly "can't live"
without Spaces I hope you're right :) But for the sake of those who may be
made [prematurely] ecstatic by your announcement I have reviews the Apple KB
on the update. There is absolutely nothing explicitly stated nor is there
even a hint of anything changed by the update that would influence the
mechanics of Spaces or the windowing system in general.

If the update truly does correct the problems it's a major discredit to
Apple because they're "sneaking the fix in the back door" & not taking
ownership of what they've consistently denied responsibility for in the
first place. It also begs the question "What else might have been slipped in
that they haven't made public?".

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
 
D

DenverMacMan

Hi everyone,
after an successfull installation of the new OS X Leopard update I made some tests with word,excel and ppt windows. The whole Spaces bug seems to be fixed. The toolbox is handled like a stand alone programm but it is not messed up anymore.

Jani,

I can confirm that the Toolbox window in Word 2008 and Excel 2008 no longer gets corrupted when changing spaces in 10.5.7. Furthermore, the issue with Word's cursor disappearing when you switch spaces also seems to have been resolved in 10.5.7.

I haven't heard of any other reports about Office 2008's resolved issues with spaces in 10.5.7 (and I've been looking, which is how I found your comment). To me, this seems like a "big deal" since there have been so many complains about Office and MacOS X Spaces. It's a real shame that people are quick to complain (and complain loudly), but when something appears to be fixed, the same users are not quite as vocal.

I believe MS attributed the problem with the Toolbox to how they used "grouped windows" and that they didn't play well with Spaces. MS claimed it was an Apple bug, and (finger pointing aside), it appears to have been fixed.

And to answer CyberTaz's comment about "sneaking in through the back door." There's an old saying (which, ironically, I use for MS frequently) that goes: "Do not attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity." In other words, don't think that Apple is trying to pull a fast one; it could be that a fix in a totally different area may have inadvertently fixed the problem with Office's Toolbox window design. Who knows? Personally, I'm not worried about it.

Finally, I figured out if you move Word's window to another space, you'll also need to move the Toolbox. The Toolbox window won't automagically follow Word to the new Space.

So, good news.
 
J

Jani

@DenverMacMan: Thank you so much for your detailed answer! You made my day. You are the first user on the damn wide web that confirmed my watching.

For me this is probably the most important fix in 10.5.7 a side the WebDEV. And I am also wondering why there aren't more people hurraying :)
I know this is not a feat of Microsoft. But if this Spaces issue continuous to be fixed it is in fact a BIG deal for all Office 2008 users.

I can confirm the Toolbox behaviour. It is handled like a seperate program window. This fits with the MS explainations how this spaces bug was born.

So it seams to me, that we can smile and close this unpretty Spaces-chapter.

Greets
 
P

Phillip Jones, C.E.T.

According to all the information on cNet and ZDnet, 5.7 was primary
security fixes.
 
D

DenverMacMan

According to all the information on cNet and ZDnet, 5.7 was primary
security fixes.

Which is very interesting because what was the behavior prior to the update is definitely no longer the behavior after the update.

It is possible that code was cleaned up that resulted in the Toolbox no longer being corrupted. It's also possible that the bug was fixed but not mentioned in the release notes.

While I don't typically believe in conspiracy theories (the simplest theory is usually the correct one, and conspiracy theories are rarely simple), it is possible (and perhaps probable) that this bug was fixed under guise of "performance enhancements" or "general stability." There are probably dozens of fixed bugs that are announced that way.

-D
 
C

CyberTaz

<snip>
And to answer CyberTaz's comment about "sneaking in through the back door."
There's an old saying (which, ironically, I use for MS frequently) that goes:
"Do not attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by
stupidity." In other words, don't think that Apple is trying to pull a fast
one; it could be that a fix in a totally different area may have inadvertently
fixed the problem with Office's Toolbox window design. Who knows? Personally,
I'm not worried about it.
<snip>

Have a look at the Apple article on what's addressed by 10.5.7:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3397

I agree with your point about inadvertent fixes and I'll be the first to
admit that I'm not a programmer, but there is absolutely nothing in that
article that even hints at something that could tangentially impact the
efficacy of Office apps in Spaces.

My point is simply that IF the manner in which a GUI functions is modified
by an "update" to the OS [which is highly unlikely in the first place] it
constitutes a change worthy of at least a passing mention in the release
notes -- that's not an "excuse me" occurrence... at least not one that
should slip by unnoticed before the release is rolled out.

My conclusion, FWIW, is that at the very most Apple is not convinced that
the conflict is rectified so therefore opted to indemnify themselves against
egg on the face by announcing a fix that "might" not actually prove to be a
fix at all. And - since there has been nothing published by Apple or MS
alleging that the fix has been made - I was simply suggesting that users not
get their hopes up.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
 
C

Clive Huggan

<snip>
And to answer CyberTaz's comment about "sneaking in through the back door."
There's an old saying (which, ironically, I use for MS frequently) that goes:
"Do not attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by
stupidity." In other words, don't think that Apple is trying to pull a fast
one; it could be that a fix in a totally different area may have
inadvertently
fixed the problem with Office's Toolbox window design. Who knows? Personally,
I'm not worried about it.
<snip>

Have a look at the Apple article on what's addressed by 10.5.7:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3397

I agree with your point about inadvertent fixes and I'll be the first to
admit that I'm not a programmer, but there is absolutely nothing in that
article that even hints at something that could tangentially impact the
efficacy of Office apps in Spaces.

My point is simply that IF the manner in which a GUI functions is modified
by an "update" to the OS [which is highly unlikely in the first place] it
constitutes a change worthy of at least a passing mention in the release
notes -- that's not an "excuse me" occurrence... at least not one that
should slip by unnoticed before the release is rolled out.

My conclusion, FWIW, is that at the very most Apple is not convinced that
the conflict is rectified so therefore opted to indemnify themselves against
egg on the face by announcing a fix that "might" not actually prove to be a
fix at all. And - since there has been nothing published by Apple or MS
alleging that the fix has been made - I was simply suggesting that users not
get their hopes up.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

I'll second all that, Bob!

I'm sure that Apple will have worked fairly hard to fix this bug -- it was
an embarrassment not only to Microsoft. And they certainly are far from
forthcoming about what's in their "security" etc fixes (and I can understand
why).

A developer friend of mine has said that 10.5.7 contains quite a lot more
fixes than "usual".

Hmm, I'd better read up on what Spaces is now...

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================
 
J

John McGhie

I believe MS attributed the problem with the Toolbox to how they used "grouped
windows" and that they didn't play well with Spaces. MS claimed it was an
Apple bug, and (finger pointing aside), it appears to have been fixed.

Well, they didn't/couldn't claim that it was ONLY an Apple Bug :)

You are correct, it was a bug in the way Word handled grouped sheets (I
think it was sheets, not windows, but I could be wrong). The Toolbox is not
a "single" widget, it's a stacked group of separate parts. This one
clobbered Word because the other applications did not use that mechanism.

Microsoft certainly had some issues with their code, which they fixed ‹ I
believe they issued the fixes in update 12.1.0. However, Apple also had
some work to do: OS X was not doing exactly what it said on the tin when
Spaces was active.

Microsoft therefore had its fixes out quite early, but we have since been
waiting for Apple to do their bit. It would appear they have now done so.
And to answer CyberTaz's comment about "sneaking in through the back door."
There's an old saying (which, ironically, I use for MS frequently) that goes:
"Do not attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by
stupidity." In other words, don't think that Apple is trying to pull a fast
one; it could be that a fix in a totally different area may have inadvertently
fixed the problem with Office's Toolbox window design. Who knows? Personally,
I'm not worried about it.

Mmmmm.... I began in the Mainframe era of computing, where a company was
expected to publish exacting detail about precisely WHAT was different about
any patch, update, or new version they released.

These days, I suspect that the "Security" that is being discussed in a
"Security Patch" is largely the job security of the corporate lawyers at the
software vendor.

I agree that fixes in an unrelated area of a complex product often have
side-effects. These are carefully tested for in a professional development
company (e.g. Apple or Microsoft...). So I find it impossible to believe
that they did not realise that they were making this change.

And being a Grumpy Old Curmudgeon, I also believe that a "Security Fix"
should not change ANY functionality AT ALL. Otherwise, you trigger the need
for every user corporation to fully test and re-qualify their entire desktop
build, including all of their line of business applications, each time you
put one out.

In most corporations, such testing requires a staff of five or ten people
and can take six months. Which is one reason viruses carve such a swathe
through corporate PCs every time a new one comes out: many corporations are
up to three years behind in their testing, so the patches don't get rolled
out!

Software developers who hope to sell into the corporate space rapidly learn
not to do this, because their valued customers are likely to ring up and say
very rude things...

But we can all applaud Apple for finally providing the fix :)

Cheers

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 
J

Jani

John,

thank you very much for the detailed report about the "spaces bug" history. Very interesting!
 
P

Phillip Jones, C.E.T.

Just read an in depth article at computerworld. Turns out on of the
fixes is a Fix of Spaces.
 
C

Clive Huggan

Jani,

I expect it's "Digging into Apple's Mac OS X 10.5.7 update" at
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&arti
cleId=9133125

The article includes:

"The list of programs touched by this updater is large, though not all get
new version numbers (indicating the changes are very minor). Here's what's
been updated, based on the BOM file, and the new version number if
applicable; if not shown, it's unchanged from 10.5.6: Address Book (4.1.2),
Automator (2.0.3), Dashboard, DVD Player, Exposé, Front Row, iCal (3.0.7),
iChat (4.0.8), Mail (3.6), Preview (4.2), Safari 4 Beta, Spaces, Time
Machine, Bluetooth File Exchange (2.1.6), RAID Utility (1.0.3), Remote
Install Mac OS X, System Profiler (10.5.7; this is updated each cycle),
Terminal (2.0.2), and X11."

Cheers,
Clive Huggan
============
 
C

Clive Huggan

On 15/5/09 5:26 PM, in article
C6335653.40773%[email protected], "Clive Huggan"

A developer friend of mine has said that 10.5.7 contains quite a lot more
fixes than "usual".
Yep:
"I've been tracking OS X updates for quite a while, and this one ranks among
the largest ever. Dumping the BOM file into a text file, and then opening it
in BBEdit reveals a total of 16,915 changed files on my MacBook Pro. Despite
that, things seem to be running very smoothly here after the update. I've
been using the machine for a few hours now, and haven't noticed any
problems--I wasn't having any before with this machine, so it's a good thing
when an update doesn't have negative consequences. As always, though, your
mileage may vary, so back up your key files before updating."

-- Rob Griffiths, "Digging into Apple's Mac OS X 10.5.7 update" at
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxo
nomyName=Operating+Systems&articleId=9133125&taxonomyId=89&pageNumber=2
 
D

deedeesday

From:
Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

Instead of running off at the mouth and boring the rest of us rigid in here,
why not "try" a few things first?

The first thing you might do is ask for help! If you did that, I suspect
you might solve your problem, whatever it may be. Currently, all I can see
on this server is your complaint that you can't get help. Help with WHAT??

Secondly, why not TRY calling Microsoft? You know, call the company
yourself, rather than repeating what some idiot posts on the Internet.

One of the things you might learn is that the "policy" about charging for
support is not "new" ‹ Microsoft introduced it in 1990.

Another thing you might learn is that it's a "discretionary charge". The
Support Analysts will refund it, if they find that there is a problem with
their Microsoft software.

The charge is there only to prevent people ringing up expecting Microsoft
software to work with an Apple feature that was not released, publicised, or
specified by the time the Microsoft software was completed.

For example: Apple removed Classic. Applications that rely in Classic
won't work: there is no way the application's designers could have known
that Classic would not be available when they built their application.

If your problem really is with Spaces and Word, you might discover that
Microsoft fixed their end of the problem in Service Pack 12.1.0 one year ago
(May 13, 2008).

Of course, if you are one of those users who would prefer simply to close
brain and open mouth, well.... That's what the $49.00 charge is for: to
ensure that those users go broke before Microsoft does. You see, it costs
around $90.00 per call to have a Help desk open, full of trained people to
answer customer questions. That figure is about nine times higher than
Microsoft's profit on selling a copy of Mac Office. So unless you find a
way to repel the users who would rather complain than maintain, you would
indeed send Microsoft broke by eating up all of the profit on each sale.

You have a nice day now...
 
P

Phillip Jones, C.E.T.

I just posted a direct link to article in question I have a habit of
saving all my emails It was Computerworld instead of cNet although they
did cover it as well.
 
J

Jani

Denver,

I can confirm that the "cursor disappear bug" in word windows is fixed too on my system. :)
 

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