Office 2008 Question

[rossk]

I heard what I think is a rumor but want to confirm the rumor, if that
makes sence. I heard that Office 08 will not be backward compatible
with previous versions. So if you make a document in 08 you cant open
it if you have office 04. If this is true please let me know. Any
links to Microsoft would be great.

 

[CyberTaz]

The expectation is that:

Yes, Office 2008 will employ a completely different file format (XML-based)
just as does Office 2007 on the PC, *but*

A) It will be able to save in previous formats as an option, and

B) Filters will be available for those continuing to use older versions
which will allow opening 2008-native (.docx, .xlsx, etc.) files.

As with *any* program upgrade, however, 2008 will most certainly include
features not supported in earlier versions, so files saved in a prior format
& files in .---x opened using filters will most likely lose something in the
translation.

The two sites below are as current & reliable as any resource:

http://blogs.msdn.com/macmojo/

http://www.microsoft.com/mac/

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Phillip Jones]

Hello Ross,

We aren't Microsoft employees here, but we keep well up to date.

Lack of backward compatibility from Office 2008 applications would be
unthinkable -- it would be commercial suicide.

I suspect the rumour has arisen because of the current difficulty in
converting Office 2007 files to Mac. (The converter on the mactopia site is
only a beta, and doesn't convert every feature in Word, but there are other
solutions -- google this group and you'll find them, or post back.)

The main problem will be lack of VBA support in Office 2008 -- a major
problem for many of us.

It may or may not be depending upon who uses Office Mac. In my personal
experience since I've owned Word Word 6.01a and Excel 5.0.1a (I believe
was part of office4.2(?)- although I never bought Office then just Word
and Excel) I've never ever used Macro's especially after I found out
thats the one case where PC viruses were Transferable to Mac, and Visual
Basic (VBA) I never could make heads nor tails or of it nor see any
advantage to using it.

If most Mac folks are like me, Then they are likely not to even notice.

http://blogs.msdn.com/macmojo/ is where you'll find official Microsoft Mac
Business Unit blogs; www.mactopia.com for official announcements.

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from North America and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
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[Jim Gordon MVP]

Phillip,

Microsoft is betting the farm that you are right!

-Jim

If most Mac folks are like me, Then they are likely not to even notice.

--
Jim Gordon
Mac MVP

MVPs are not Microsoft Employees
MVP info

 

[John McGhie]

Nope It's utter rubbish The new version will be slightly better at
opening the old format, and at saving it, than the old version was.

The old version (2004...) will be be able to use a converter to open and
save the new format. It will have no trouble with Office 2008 format.

Office 2004 can create AppleScript and VBA macros. Office 2008 can create
only AppleScript: existing VBA macros will not run at all in Office 2008.
This is a serious problem for corporate workgroups that share automation
solutions with the PC. Other users probably won't notice.

Conversely, Office 2008 can create objects within the document that Office
Previous cannot interpret. These objects will be automatically converted to
pictures when you down-save.

This will mainly concern Interactive Graphics. Since Office Previous can't
do interactive graphics, they will be converted to static graphics. Once a
picture has been turned into a static picture, it loses the ability to be an
interactive graphic. In most cases, that won't matter because by then the
graphic is "finished" and there's no need for it to change.

In the tiny number of cases where it does matter, the user will need to
purchase either Office 2007 or Office 2008.

Cheers

I heard what I think is a rumor but want to confirm the rumor, if that
makes sence. I heard that Office 08 will not be backward compatible
with previous versions. So if you make a document in 08 you cant open
it if you have office 04. If this is true please let me know. Any
links to Microsoft would be great.

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Phillip Jones]

well If you do want me to bring it up.

It is a MS Conspiracy to, make mac people unhappy so they will throw up
their hands and throwaway their Mac's because it doesn't work exactly
alike on the Mac and on the PC.

The problem is on this particular subject it ho-hum. Because probably
about 95% of normal users on a Mac Don't even knowingly use Applescript,
much less know about macros and VBA. So this is wasted and dangerous use
resources. VBA and Macro's. Both are super easy to write nasty code for
that can reek havoc on any OS. ON OS9, on Mac if you purchased the OS
you received a thick book thicker than on the OS for Apple script. I
would put away in a deep dark corner somewhere and eventual they got
thrown out. Now today Its part of the system and apple assumes everyone
in the days of OS7.5.2 learned how to use it so they don't even bring it
up when touting new features of the new OS. IF it was up to me I'd ban
all such do it your self scripting languages, such as applescript, VBA,
Macro generators, etc; because the eventually cause problems either by
accident, but usually on purpose.

Anyways I though I'd send something out so you wouldn't think I am
unwell.

Crikey, Phillip!

Do you realise you've posted a comment in which you downplay a shortcoming
of Microsoft software? And don't see a on Microsoft's behalf?
Stap me vitals, my good man!! I hope you aren't feeling unwell! ;-)

I'm about to leave for a week away; as I set forth up the road this has made
my little day!!

Cheers,

Clive
======




<snip>

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[Phillip Jones]

Well that bet is safe. Its safe to say, that the vast majority don't
even know what Applescript is let alone, knowingly use it. So why would
they be interested in VBA or even Macro's.

Macro's and VBA is the only thing common between PC's and Mac that can
transmit dangerous viruses.

Phillip,

Microsoft is betting the farm that you are right!

-Jim

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[Jim Gordon MVP]

Hi Phillip,

True, the vast majority don't use scripting or VBA. A large number of people
don't even use Microsoft Office or any office program. Email, text messages,
and chat are plenty. You don't need Office for iTunes, movies, video, and
sound.

On the other hand businesses, education users, charities, and other
organizations often rely on the ability to script Microsoft Office. Without
VBA Microsoft Office loses considerable value for these customers. The
scripts are usually kept "in house" and don't run a risk of viruses. These
customers are faced with having to choose Mac Office 2004 or switching to
Windows for Office 2003 or Office 2007. At a time when Apple is grabbing 17%
of the laptop market this is a very bad move. It forces these customers to
buy Windows and non Apple hardware or to run Parallels or Boot Camp.

I'm not as confident as you that Macros and VBA are the only things in
common between PCs and Macs that can transmit dangerous viruses. I know of
only one macro virus, the ancient "word macro virus," which was an annoyance
and easily removed. The capability exists for such things, but the danger
has been grossly exaggerated.

Every programming language has to allow software authors to manipulate the
file system, where there is always risk of harmful activity. I think there
is a high likelihood that using phishing techniques that any spammer worth
her salt could entice people to install a Mac program that compromises the
Mac. Such a program would not use AppleScript, VBA or Macros of any kind. It
would simply be an application, or possibly a widget.

Right now the greatest threat to all computer users is web browsers.
Combining cookies with IP addresses the bad guys have the ability to create
dossiers on everyone who uses the internet. Haven't you noticed your spam
includes uncanny references to familiar names and topics? These guys know
everything about you and will use that to sell things to you and sell
information about you to others.

Here are two quotes that I concur with

" With the aquisition of Abacus Direct, a direct mail firm, whose database
of Catalog shopping records can be tied to your surfing as you move from
site to site... well, your privacy is out the window." And Google bought
Doubleclick.

" For people who use the web, DoubleClick¹s poisoned cookie spells an
invasion of privacy the likes of which Stalin himself never dreamed."
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/clickthru/

-Jim

Well that bet is safe. Its safe to say, that the vast majority don't
even know what Applescript is let alone, knowingly use it. So why would
they be interested in VBA or even Macro's.

Macro's and VBA is the only thing common between PC's and Mac that can
transmit dangerous viruses.

--
Jim Gordon
Mac MVP

MVPs are not Microsoft Employees
MVP info

 

[Jim Gordon MVP]

Hi Phillip,

I love conspiracy theories. 911 = conspiracy. I buy that completely. But not
about Office.

We Mac people had a fit when Microsoft made Office 4.2.1. That was Word 6,
Excel 5 and PowerPoint 4. They were identical Mac and PC as much as
possible. Mac people hated it. We had Word 5, which was better than Word 6
and we screamed bloody murder. After that, Microsoft decided no more making
Office identical Mac & PC.

I'm a big fan of empowerment, too. I think the model of central computing
that exists in open source and big business is a doomed model imposed by
control freaks and bullies. It takes the most important aspects of a
computer's power away from the user and gives it to a central authority,
whom users must trust and obey and are powerless against. Scripting
languages unleash users and frees them from the power mongers who make
decisions based on their own interests, not the users. The "dumb terminal"
requires a "dumb user." It's the opposite of what I think the Mac is about.

-Jim

well If you do want me to bring it up.

It is a MS Conspiracy to, make mac people unhappy so they will throw up
their hands and throwaway their Mac's because it doesn't work exactly
alike on the Mac and on the PC.

The problem is on this particular subject it ho-hum. Because probably
about 95% of normal users on a Mac Don't even knowingly use Applescript,
much less know about macros and VBA. So this is wasted and dangerous use
resources. VBA and Macro's. Both are super easy to write nasty code for
that can reek havoc on any OS. ON OS9, on Mac if you purchased the OS
you received a thick book thicker than on the OS for Apple script. I
would put away in a deep dark corner somewhere and eventual they got
thrown out. Now today Its part of the system and apple assumes everyone
in the days of OS7.5.2 learned how to use it so they don't even bring it
up when touting new features of the new OS. IF it was up to me I'd ban
all such do it your self scripting languages, such as applescript, VBA,
Macro generators, etc; because the eventually cause problems either by
accident, but usually on purpose.

Anyways I though I'd send something out so you wouldn't think I am
unwell.

--
Jim Gordon
Mac MVP

MVPs are not Microsoft Employees
MVP info

 

[Phillip Jones]

Hi Phillip,

I love conspiracy theories. 911 = conspiracy. I buy that completely. But not
about Office.

We Mac people had a fit when Microsoft made Office 4.2.1. That was Word 6,
Excel 5 and PowerPoint 4. They were identical Mac and PC as much as
possible. Mac people hated it. We had Word 5, which was better than Word 6
and we screamed bloody murder. After that, Microsoft decided no more making
Office identical Mac & PC.

You may pass out from shock but because W6 and E5 was the first versions
of the program I had. I thought and still do that that was the best laid
out and had the best feature set. It had one flaw I hated. How it
handled doing form letters using a mailing list. I never could get the
printer setting to line up as the should . of course back the I used a
DeskJet 650 printer and could have been the driver but everything else
worked right.

WordPerfect had the absolute perfect system for that task. I'd do
envelopes of WP 3.5.x and everything else in Word.

One feature W6 had that was killed in Office 2001 and up was when you
clicked on the little symbol that looked to be like some type of musical
note, to see the invisible characters.

you could see something like little black squares at the beginning of
each paragraph you could double click on that square, scroll to desired
paragraph and click once on it black box, bang that whole paragraph was
changed to the style that was used in the one you double clicked on. I
used that feature all the time. In Office2001 and 2004 its gone infact
you kno longer see the little squares.

I'm a big fan of empowerment, too. I think the model of central computing
that exists in open source and big business is a doomed model imposed by
control freaks and bullies. It takes the most important aspects of a
computer's power away from the user and gives it to a central authority,
whom users must trust and obey and are powerless against. Scripting
languages unleash users and frees them from the power mongers who make
decisions based on their own interests, not the users. The "dumb terminal"
requires a "dumb user." It's the opposite of what I think the Mac is about.

-Jim

If you think its as serious, as you think then then you as super users
ought to get together and change their mind. But I've never knowing ly
used any.

While I admit I am small fry, I have writing various documents for the
Electronics Association I belong to, and the need on either end (PC or
Mac) has never came up) and I've been a part of this group for some 30+
years.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[Sandy Foster]

We Mac people had a fit when Microsoft made Office 4.2.1. That was Word 6,
Excel 5 and PowerPoint 4. They were identical Mac and PC as much as
possible. Mac people hated it. We had Word 5, which was better than Word 6
and we screamed bloody murder. After that, Microsoft decided no more making
Office identical Mac & PC.

And thank goodness for that! <G> I've had Word since version 1 came
bundled with my MacPlus (updated from a 512E), and Word 6 was *awful*! I
bought it, installed it, uninstalled it and happily continued using Word
5 until the next version appeared. Whew!

 

[John McGhie]

That's twice in row I agree with you Philip

Yes, Word 6 was the last version of Mac Word I actually LIKED I used it
in business at Optus Ltd in Sydney.

The reason I really liked it was that it was exactly the same as the PC
version, and wasn't missing any bits

I know I am a lone voice crying in the dark here, but I keep trying to tell
Microsoft that when people go out to buy "Office", what they have in mind is
the full PC-version "just like the one at work". That's what they think
they're buying, and when they get the reality home, it's a huge let-down.

That doesn't strike me as very clever behaviour for a software company.

Cheers

You may pass out from shock but because W6 and E5 was the first versions
of the program I had. I thought and still do that that was the best laid
out and had the best feature set. It had one flaw I hated. How it
handled doing form letters using a mailing list. I never could get the
printer setting to line up as the should . of course back the I used a
DeskJet 650 printer and could have been the driver but everything else
worked right.

WordPerfect had the absolute perfect system for that task. I'd do
envelopes of WP 3.5.x and everything else in Word.

One feature W6 had that was killed in Office 2001 and up was when you
clicked on the little symbol that looked to be like some type of musical
note, to see the invisible characters.

you could see something like little black squares at the beginning of
each paragraph you could double click on that square, scroll to desired
paragraph and click once on it black box, bang that whole paragraph was
changed to the style that was used in the one you double clicked on. I
used that feature all the time. In Office2001 and 2004 its gone infact
you kno longer see the little squares.


If you think its as serious, as you think then then you as super users
ought to get together and change their mind. But I've never knowing ly
used any.

While I admit I am small fry, I have writing various documents for the
Electronics Association I belong to, and the need on either end (PC or
Mac) has never came up) and I've been a part of this group for some 30+
years.


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Elliott Roper]

That's twice in row I agree with you Philip

Yes, Word 6 was the last version of Mac Word I actually LIKED I used it
in business at Optus Ltd in Sydney.

The reason I really liked it was that it was exactly the same as the PC
version, and wasn't missing any bits

I know I am a lone voice crying in the dark here, but I keep trying to tell
Microsoft that when people go out to buy "Office", what they have in mind is
the full PC-version "just like the one at work". That's what they think
they're buying, and when they get the reality home, it's a huge let-down.

That doesn't strike me as very clever behaviour for a software company.

As one of the howling multitude shouting you down, may I rebut?

1. Word 6 was rubbish. Precisely *because* it was as bad as the PC
version. You buy a Mac so you can get your work done in a less ugly,
less hostile environment.
2. Word 2007 on the PC is heading off in the same direction as Word 6.
No space left on the screen to see what you are doing underneath 400
km^2 of ribbon. I don't need that at home or anywhere. I wanna work in
a clean environment. No ribbons, no toolbars, no scroll bars no
pointy-clicky, no nothing. I can do that and work faster in Word 2004.
I sincerely hope I can continue to do that in Word 2008
3. All you need is to be able to read the stuff the poor benighted ones
have created in their ugly workhouse, to modify it, to create cousins
and to send 'em back.

I do agree it would be nice to have all the features of the PC version
I *need*, but I'd gladly forgo a few for elimination of the dire virus
vectors and inept graphics and typography that plagues the 'real' one.

I know your case is special. Not everyone is an executive level
technical author with responsibility for setting corporate document
style standards. If your customers are in the workhouse, then you are
pooched, You, at the very least, have to test on the dark side,
regardless of how close the Mac version seems to be. You might as well
do all your work in Windows. We'll send get well cards.

I think the MacBU at Microsoft have read the market right. Mac users
are *not* Windows users in the main. They prefer to be better than than
that. Yes it is tiresome to shift gears at work, but what a relief to
get home!

One day the boss will see sense, get machines and software that are not
so ugly to deal with, and have a lower TCO for extra brownie points.

That strikes me as very clever behaviour for a software company.
Cheap insurance; keeping an open view of your premier product; keeping
the EU and DoJ off your back. A no-brainer.

Besides. You can't have the pair of us agreeing with Phillip.

 

[Phillip Jones]

Do you know what the feature I was referring to where you could double
click on the little black square in front of any paragraph and scroll to
any other forward or backwards and click on it and have that one take on
the style characteristics of the one you copied.

I miss that.

That's twice in row I agree with you Philip

Yes, Word 6 was the last version of Mac Word I actually LIKED I used it
in business at Optus Ltd in Sydney.

The reason I really liked it was that it was exactly the same as the PC
version, and wasn't missing any bits

I know I am a lone voice crying in the dark here, but I keep trying to tell
Microsoft that when people go out to buy "Office", what they have in mind is
the full PC-version "just like the one at work". That's what they think
they're buying, and when they get the reality home, it's a huge let-down.

That doesn't strike me as very clever behaviour for a software company.

Cheers

Hi Phillip,

I love conspiracy theories. 911 = conspiracy. I buy that completely. But not
about Office.

We Mac people had a fit when Microsoft made Office 4.2.1. That was Word 6,
Excel 5 and PowerPoint 4. They were identical Mac and PC as much as
possible. Mac people hated it. We had Word 5, which was better than Word 6
and we screamed bloody murder. After that, Microsoft decided no more making
Office identical Mac & PC.

You may pass out from shock but because W6 and E5 was the first versions
of the program I had. I thought and still do that that was the best laid
out and had the best feature set. It had one flaw I hated. How it
handled doing form letters using a mailing list. I never could get the
printer setting to line up as the should . of course back the I used a
DeskJet 650 printer and could have been the driver but everything else
worked right.

WordPerfect had the absolute perfect system for that task. I'd do
envelopes of WP 3.5.x and everything else in Word.

One feature W6 had that was killed in Office 2001 and up was when you
clicked on the little symbol that looked to be like some type of musical
note, to see the invisible characters.

you could see something like little black squares at the beginning of
each paragraph you could double click on that square, scroll to desired
paragraph and click once on it black box, bang that whole paragraph was
changed to the style that was used in the one you double clicked on. I
used that feature all the time. In Office2001 and 2004 its gone infact
you kno longer see the little squares.

I'm a big fan of empowerment, too. I think the model of central computing
that exists in open source and big business is a doomed model imposed by
control freaks and bullies. It takes the most important aspects of a
computer's power away from the user and gives it to a central authority,
whom users must trust and obey and are powerless against. Scripting
languages unleash users and frees them from the power mongers who make
decisions based on their own interests, not the users. The "dumb terminal"
requires a "dumb user." It's the opposite of what I think the Mac is about.

-Jim

If you think its as serious, as you think then then you as super users
ought to get together and change their mind. But I've never knowing ly
used any.

While I admit I am small fry, I have writing various documents for the
Electronics Association I belong to, and the need on either end (PC or
Mac) has never came up) and I've been a part of this group for some 30+
years.

Quoting from "Phillip Jones" <[email protected]>, in article
#[email protected], on [DATE:

well If you do want me to bring it up.

It is a MS Conspiracy to, make mac people unhappy so they will throw up
their hands and throwaway their Mac's because it doesn't work exactly
alike on the Mac and on the PC.

The problem is on this particular subject it ho-hum. Because probably
about 95% of normal users on a Mac Don't even knowingly use Applescript,
much less know about macros and VBA. So this is wasted and dangerous use
resources. VBA and Macro's. Both are super easy to write nasty code for
that can reek havoc on any OS. ON OS9, on Mac if you purchased the OS
you received a thick book thicker than on the OS for Apple script. I
would put away in a deep dark corner somewhere and eventual they got
thrown out. Now today Its part of the system and apple assumes everyone
in the days of OS7.5.2 learned how to use it so they don't even bring it
up when touting new features of the new OS. IF it was up to me I'd ban
all such do it your self scripting languages, such as applescript, VBA,
Macro generators, etc; because the eventually cause problems either by
accident, but usually on purpose.

Anyways I though I'd send something out so you wouldn't think I am
unwell.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[Elliott Roper]

Do you know what the feature I was referring to where you could double
click on the little black square in front of any paragraph and scroll to
any other forward or backwards and click on it and have that one take on
the style characteristics of the one you copied.

I miss that.

Miss no more. Copy paste paragraph marks instead.

 

[Phillip Jones]

As one of the howling multitude shouting you down, may I rebut?

1. Word 6 was rubbish. Precisely *because* it was as bad as the PC
version. You buy a Mac so you can get your work done in a less ugly,
less hostile environment.
2. Word 2007 on the PC is heading off in the same direction as Word 6.
No space left on the screen to see what you are doing underneath 400
km^2 of ribbon. I don't need that at home or anywhere. I wanna work in
a clean environment. No ribbons, no toolbars, no scroll bars no
pointy-clicky, no nothing. I can do that and work faster in Word 2004.
I sincerely hope I can continue to do that in Word 2008
3. All you need is to be able to read the stuff the poor benighted ones
have created in their ugly workhouse, to modify it, to create cousins
and to send 'em back.

I do agree it would be nice to have all the features of the PC version
I *need*, but I'd gladly forgo a few for elimination of the dire virus
vectors and inept graphics and typography that plagues the 'real' one.

I know your case is special. Not everyone is an executive level
technical author with responsibility for setting corporate document
style standards. If your customers are in the workhouse, then you are
pooched, You, at the very least, have to test on the dark side,
regardless of how close the Mac version seems to be. You might as well
do all your work in Windows. We'll send get well cards.

I think the MacBU at Microsoft have read the market right. Mac users
are *not* Windows users in the main. They prefer to be better than than
that. Yes it is tiresome to shift gears at work, but what a relief to
get home!

One day the boss will see sense, get machines and software that are not
so ugly to deal with, and have a lower TCO for extra brownie points.

That strikes me as very clever behaviour for a software company.
Cheap insurance; keeping an open view of your premier product; keeping
the EU and DoJ off your back. A no-brainer.

Besides. You can't have the pair of us agreeing with Phillip.

Why can't you Elliot? Am I to low down on the totem pole?

Do you realize That even in Office2001 and 2004 I still use the ribbon
as you would call it. I only have on the ribbon though only the items
that I will ever use. Funny thing its only four rows deep using smaller
icons and I have plenty of real Estate on my 17 monitor set a 1280 by
1024 dpi left to do my work I don't want to have to into drop down
window, to drop down window, to drop down window to get at something I
use constantly.

If Word 6 hadn't been badly broken on OS9 and I had to switch to
office2001, I would still using 6 today.

See I came up through, Microsoft works, Apple Works, Mac the MacWritePro
and so W6/E% didn't look a heck of a lot different for me than what I
already was using.

believe it not I've never even a copy of Word 5. Maybe if I had, my
think would have been different.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[Elliott Roper]

Why can't you Elliot? Am I to low down on the totem pole?

Hell no! There ain't no totem pole. We just can't let you get too full
of yourself. ;-)
We are here having fun with friends. You are definitely one of the
friends to have fun with.

Do you realize That even in Office2001 and 2004 I still use the ribbon
as you would call it. I only have on the ribbon though only the items
that I will ever use. Funny thing its only four rows deep using smaller
icons and I have plenty of real Estate on my 17 monitor set a 1280 by
1024 dpi left to do my work I don't want to have to into drop down
window, to drop down window, to drop down window to get at something I
use constantly.

If Word 6 hadn't been badly broken on OS9 and I had to switch to
office2001, I would still using 6 today.

See I came up through, Microsoft works, Apple Works, Mac the MacWritePro
and so W6/E% didn't look a heck of a lot different for me than what I
already was using.

believe it not I've never even a copy of Word 5. Maybe if I had, my
think would have been different.

Seriously, it is a good thing when there are different ways of driving
a product. On sunny days, when it isn't so hot you need the aircon on,
and the cops are not watching, it is nice to hang your elbow out the
window like we did in the sixties. I'd be right at the other extreme
from you when it comes to driving Word. I turn off every toolbar,
scrollbar and palette I possibly can. I try to go for days on end
without touching the mouse and drive it all from the keyboard.

My computer upbringing was so different to yours. I used
poccata-poccata teletypes and green screens for 12 years before I even
*saw* my first mouse in 1982 on a Xerox Star. I got my first Mac in
1984, and I started with Word v1 and Multiplan (Excel's ancestor) and
have kept with 'em all all the way through.
Word 6 was the only one I ever ditched. I upgraded to Word 5.1a and
stayed there till I couldn't stand Classic any more. v.X and 2004 ever
since.

For old times sake, I'm playing again with LaTeX + emacs as an
alternative doc prep system, while churning out 'paid' work on Word and
InDesign.

You can imagine how messed up my keyboard shortcut memory is! If you
knew that my preferred editor while programming all those years was
teco, you would be amazed I can even cross the street. Actually, to
this day, I make teco commands out of car number plates when I'm stuck
in traffic.

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Elliot:

1. Word 6 was rubbish. Precisely *because* it was as bad as the PC
version. You buy a Mac so you can get your work done in a less ugly,
less hostile environment.

Yeah, but it had all the features. I don't even look to see what it looks
like until it has the functionality I need. After that, I look for
stability. The prettiness comes last..

2. Word 2007 on the PC is heading off in the same direction as Word 6.
No space left on the screen to see what you are doing underneath 400
km^2 of ribbon.

So double-click it. It will go away... There, that was hard, wasn't it...

no scroll bars no
pointy-clicky, no nothing. I can do that and work faster in Word 2004.

No. You can't. You can hit a lot more keys and "seem like" you're faster.
You are, indeed, doing more work. But you're not getting more work done

3. All you need is to be able to read the stuff the poor benighted ones
have created in their ugly workhouse, to modify it, to create cousins
and to send 'em back.

Um, no.... *I* need quite a bit more than that. I need extensive ability
to programmatically alter/upgrade/modify very large knowledge sets and
publish them in a wide variety of formats, one of the least-used of which is
"paper".

I know your case is special. Not everyone is an executive level
technical author with responsibility for setting corporate document
style standards. If your customers are in the workhouse, then you are
pooched, You, at the very least, have to test on the dark side,
regardless of how close the Mac version seems to be. You might as well
do all your work in Windows. We'll send get well cards.

Eh, don't feel too bad for me The new version of RDC works very nicely.
And when I am forced to test in Vista, having a workstation that requires
its own power station to run it is very important

I think the MacBU at Microsoft have read the market right. Mac users
are *not* Windows users in the main. They prefer to be better than than
that. Yes it is tiresome to shift gears at work, but what a relief to
get home!

Well, *I* am not retired yet (end neither is Phillip!!). No, it's NOT a
relief to get home if the only option is the Mac: it's an endless round of
"Damn this is so slow" and "Damn, I'll have to send it back to work to do
that" and "Damn, if I change that on the Mac it will be broken when I get
back to the office." It shouldn't be like that, but it is...

Besides. You can't have the pair of us agreeing with Phillip.

Why not? Phillip wouldn't mind, he's an affable (if very BIG...) gentleman!

Cheers
--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Phillip:

Good GRIEF!! I had forgotten that one!! The first version of the Format
Painter. Before it became the Format Painter...

I think you are the FIRST other user I have ever met that knew about that
one!!!

Cheers

Do you know what the feature I was referring to where you could double
click on the little black square in front of any paragraph and scroll to
any other forward or backwards and click on it and have that one take on
the style characteristics of the one you copied.

I miss that.

That's twice in row I agree with you Philip

Yes, Word 6 was the last version of Mac Word I actually LIKED I used it
in business at Optus Ltd in Sydney.

The reason I really liked it was that it was exactly the same as the PC
version, and wasn't missing any bits

I know I am a lone voice crying in the dark here, but I keep trying to tell
Microsoft that when people go out to buy "Office", what they have in mind is
the full PC-version "just like the one at work". That's what they think
they're buying, and when they get the reality home, it's a huge let-down.

That doesn't strike me as very clever behaviour for a software company.

Cheers

Jim Gordon MVP wrote:
Hi Phillip,

I love conspiracy theories. 911 = conspiracy. I buy that completely. But
not
about Office.

We Mac people had a fit when Microsoft made Office 4.2.1. That was Word 6,
Excel 5 and PowerPoint 4. They were identical Mac and PC as much as
possible. Mac people hated it. We had Word 5, which was better than Word 6
and we screamed bloody murder. After that, Microsoft decided no more making
Office identical Mac & PC.
You may pass out from shock but because W6 and E5 was the first versions
of the program I had. I thought and still do that that was the best laid
out and had the best feature set. It had one flaw I hated. How it
handled doing form letters using a mailing list. I never could get the
printer setting to line up as the should . of course back the I used a
DeskJet 650 printer and could have been the driver but everything else
worked right.

WordPerfect had the absolute perfect system for that task. I'd do
envelopes of WP 3.5.x and everything else in Word.

One feature W6 had that was killed in Office 2001 and up was when you
clicked on the little symbol that looked to be like some type of musical
note, to see the invisible characters.

you could see something like little black squares at the beginning of
each paragraph you could double click on that square, scroll to desired
paragraph and click once on it black box, bang that whole paragraph was
changed to the style that was used in the one you double clicked on. I
used that feature all the time. In Office2001 and 2004 its gone infact
you kno longer see the little squares.

I'm a big fan of empowerment, too. I think the model of central computing
that exists in open source and big business is a doomed model imposed by
control freaks and bullies. It takes the most important aspects of a
computer's power away from the user and gives it to a central authority,
whom users must trust and obey and are powerless against. Scripting
languages unleash users and frees them from the power mongers who make
decisions based on their own interests, not the users. The "dumb terminal"
requires a "dumb user." It's the opposite of what I think the Mac is about.

-Jim
If you think its as serious, as you think then then you as super users
ought to get together and change their mind. But I've never knowing ly
used any.

While I admit I am small fry, I have writing various documents for the
Electronics Association I belong to, and the need on either end (PC or
Mac) has never came up) and I've been a part of this group for some 30+
years.

Quoting from "Phillip Jones" <[email protected]>, in article
#[email protected], on [DATE:

well If you do want me to bring it up.

It is a MS Conspiracy to, make mac people unhappy so they will throw up
their hands and throwaway their Mac's because it doesn't work exactly
alike on the Mac and on the PC.

The problem is on this particular subject it ho-hum. Because probably
about 95% of normal users on a Mac Don't even knowingly use Applescript,
much less know about macros and VBA. So this is wasted and dangerous use
resources. VBA and Macro's. Both are super easy to write nasty code for
that can reek havoc on any OS. ON OS9, on Mac if you purchased the OS
you received a thick book thicker than on the OS for Apple script. I
would put away in a deep dark corner somewhere and eventual they got
thrown out. Now today Its part of the system and apple assumes everyone
in the days of OS7.5.2 learned how to use it so they don't even bring it
up when touting new features of the new OS. IF it was up to me I'd ban
all such do it your self scripting languages, such as applescript, VBA,
Macro generators, etc; because the eventually cause problems either by
accident, but usually on purpose.

Anyways I though I'd send something out so you wouldn't think I am
unwell.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Phillip Jones]

Hi Elliot:



Yeah, but it had all the features. I don't even look to see what it looks
like until it has the functionality I need. After that, I look for
stability. The prettiness comes last..


So double-click it. It will go away... There, that was hard, wasn't it...


No. You can't. You can hit a lot more keys and "seem like" you're faster.
You are, indeed, doing more work. But you're not getting more work done


Um, no.... *I* need quite a bit more than that. I need extensive ability
to programmatically alter/upgrade/modify very large knowledge sets and
publish them in a wide variety of formats, one of the least-used of which is
"paper".


Eh, don't feel too bad for me The new version of RDC works very nicely.
And when I am forced to test in Vista, having a workstation that requires
its own power station to run it is very important


Well, *I* am not retired yet (end neither is Phillip!!). No, it's NOT a
relief to get home if the only option is the Mac: it's an endless round of
"Damn this is so slow" and "Damn, I'll have to send it back to work to do
that" and "Damn, if I change that on the Mac it will be broken when I get
back to the office." It shouldn't be like that, but it is...


Why not? Phillip wouldn't mind, he's an affable (if very BIG...) gentleman!

Cheers

No wouldn't hurt my feelings at all for someone to agree with.
In all my 58 years, it been the norm for people to disagree with me. ;-)

But I do enjoy it when some one does on occasion.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>