OK dont use Layers - how do I layer items?

[Paul]

I originally built our site using the tools I could find and understand in FP
(www-integrated-robotics.com)

But since we deal with a lot of engineers and designers the page usually
comes out looking like crap because of the Layers and absolute positioning
(right?)

So if I use table layout, how can I position graphics and text to look
layered and flow into and around each other, and not totally "blocked" - do
I have to do all of the graphics in a graphics editor and then load as a
single item - the problem with this is:

Having to buy a graphcs package that cost MORE than frontpage to do what FP
promises it can do.

Having to learn a professional grade graphics editor just to do one or two
sites, I am our sales person - not a pro-webdesigner (obviously) -

By working in the two different programs - you do not know how your graphics
will look until you finish the graphic, load and then publish (i.e. Back and
Forth)

If anyone can suggest a decent graphic editor I would also appreciate it...

Any guidance would be appreciated -

Thanks

 

[E. T. Culling]

These might help ... Paint Shop Pro is a great program.
http://www.eleanorstravels.com/frontpage-dontdo.htm
http://www.eleanorstravels.com/PSPv9/index.htm
Eleanor
Remember ... don't let FP go near your images!!

 

[Paul]

Regardsing Layers - it seems that an AP layer can be placed in a cell of of a
table - does this help the situation - for example is the position still
absolute to the entire page - or is it "in" the cell?

Follow up to my msg below

 

[Murray]

So if I use table layout, how can I position graphics and text to look

layered and flow into and around each other, and not totally "blocked" -
do
I have to do all of the graphics in a graphics editor and then load as a
single item

Heavens no.

Investigate the use of Float. It's one of the more useful CSS properties.
Start here -

http://www.meyerweb.com/

Just using float, margins, and padding (no positioning at all) you can
create most layouts.

See for example the pages here -

http://neapco.beyondunreal.com/n_why-neapco.php

(not a single positioned element on the whole site - nor any tables, either)

 

[Paul]

Thanks Murray - I'll look into it -

For using CSS in Frontpage I quickly found:

http://office.microsoft.com/training/training.aspx?AssetID=RC012111061033

(I really do not LOVE MS so much - but -- Lack of All trades and apparently
master of....)

regards - Paul

 

[Murray]

Regardsing Layers - it seems that an AP layer can be placed in a cell of

of a
table - does this help the situation - for example is the position still
absolute to the entire page - or is it "in" the cell?

It is IN the cell, and will cause you grief in that location. Don't put AP
elements directly into table cells.

 

[Murray]

Here are some more -

http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/qdmacfly/index.htm
http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/dreamweaver/css.html

(perhaps a little DW-centric)

 

[E. T. Culling]

I'm curious ... what is it that you believe FP 'promises" to do:
"Having to buy a graphcs package that cost MORE than frontpage to do what FP
promises it can do."
Eleanor

 

[Kevin Spencer]

But since we deal with a lot of engineers and designers the page usually

comes out looking like crap because of the Layers and absolute positioning
(right?)

Not right. It comes out looking like crap because of your inability to
successfully use Layers and postioning. See http://www.csszengarden.com/ for
examples of what can be done very successfully and well using divs (Layers)
and positioning. Each page is the same HTML document with different styles
applied.

However, as you are not very experienced, you may find tables somewhat
easier to work with. They are more limiting, but they are more instinctive.

The biggest problems with HTML layout generally come from the fact that
different browsers on different machines may render HTML documents
differently, for a number of different reasons. No HTML development toolkit
can overcome this; it is something you have to learn. In a way, it is
similar to expecting having a really good word processing program to make
you into a poet. Good tools make work easier and more efficient. But they do
not create; they only empower.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Show me your certification without works,
and I'll show my certification
*by* my works.

 

[Murray]

what can be done very successfully and well using divs (Layers)

A div is not a layer. In fact, the home page at zengarden only has 3
absolutely positoned elements, and the first mentioned site - dazzling
beauty - http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/195/195.css&page=0 - only has
one absolutely positioned element. And in both cases, those elements are
used only for specialty purposes.

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Ah, but Murray, in FrontPage, the word "Layer" is used to indicate a div,
with certain characteristics that can be changed to make it behave like any
other div, and you might also note that I omitted the word "absolute" when I
said "Layers and postioning." Again, I associated the word "layer" with
"div" and omitted the word "absolute" when I said "using divs (Layers) and
positioning." In other words, I am well aware of the fact that absolute
positioning is of limited use, and tried to introduce the OP to the concept
that divs and layers (as FrontPage calls them) are the same thing. Perhaps I
was too succinct?

--
;-),

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Show me your certification without works,
and I'll show my certification
*by* my works.

 

[Murray]

Flew right past me. In fact, the whole notion of calling a div a layer
does.

So, in the absence of any style rules, FP would regard this -

<div>boooo!</div>

as a layer?

 

[Paul]

Hello Everyone - I had set the flag to be notified of a reply, but this
apparently only works on the first reply - so sorry for not checking in>

Seems I have ruffeled some feathers.. sorry... I made no claims in my inital
post about being an expert but did want do reply:

ETC - In the description of FrontPage "It includes the professional design,
authoring, data, and publishing tools needed to create dynamic and
sophisticated Web sites." - granted a key word that is missing is "ALL" but
if you have to buy and learn how to use a pricy graphics program to do some
medium level layout work - I just do not feel that FP lives up to it's claim
- just my opinion - I am not the first person to be critical of a Microsoft
product...

KS - As for my "looks like crap" comment I know it is my work - the issue
with the engineers systems is, I believe, they run larger higher resolution
monitors - I wasn't blaiming the engineers comuters. (Based on the my
tracking data - 98% of my visitors are using IE) - The other problem is that
you do you layout, it looks good in FP, and on the two other computers I have
at home once I publish, then 3 or 4 weeks later you talk to a customer and
they bring this up - you generally have no idea that this is a problem - so
it is difficult to "proof" your work.

As for using CSS it does look like it will help somwhat, but the issue is
really the graphics layout and positioning relative to text - - As you work
with most office products you become dependent on WISIWIG - I find a tool and
I use it....if it looks OK I'll keep it....

I'll work more on learning more - and this forum helps - again sorry if I
offended any dyed in the wool MS fans, but I wasn't getting personal.....

 

[Mike Mueller]

....Inline answers

: Hello Everyone - I had set the flag to be notified of a
reply, but this
: apparently only works on the first reply - so sorry for
not checking in>

----Using the web interface is clunky, try using a news
reader, the one in Outlook Express works well.

: Seems I have ruffeled some feathers.. sorry... I made no
claims in my inital
: post about being an expert but did want do reply:
:
: ETC - In the description of FrontPage "It includes the
professional design,
: authoring, data, and publishing tools needed to create
dynamic and
: sophisticated Web sites." - granted a key word that is
missing is "ALL" but
: if you have to buy and learn how to use a pricy graphics
program to do some
: medium level layout work - I just do not feel that FP
lives up to it's claim
: - just my opinion - I am not the first person to be
critical of a Microsoft
: product...

----- It all depends on how you look at it. CSS is what you
use for layout work, and FP can create or edit CSS files.
Cant blame a product if
you don't know how to use it. The only graphics I have ever
needed to make it look prettier were all done with Paint.
:
: KS - As for my "looks like crap" comment I know it is my
work - the issue
: with the engineers systems is, I believe, they run larger
higher resolution
: monitors - I wasn't blaiming the engineers comuters.
(Based on the my
: tracking data - 98% of my visitors are using IE) - The
other problem is that
: you do you layout, it looks good in FP, and on the two
other computers I have
: at home once I publish, then 3 or 4 weeks later you talk
to a customer and
: they bring this up - you generally have no idea that this
is a problem - so
: it is difficult to "proof" your work.

---FP does allow you to preview in a browser, at various
resolutions. If you install other browsers, you can set FP
to use them also for previews.

: As for using CSS it does look like it will help somwhat,
but the issue is
: really the graphics layout and positioning relative to
text - - As you work
: with most office products you become dependent on
WISIWIG - I find a tool and
: I use it....if it looks OK I'll keep it....

----Look at CSS for the presentation, and the HTML for the
content. WYSIWYG at best is an approximation, as different
browsers and versions of them have different levels of
adoptions of html and css.


: "Murray" wrote:
:
: > Flew right past me. In fact, the whole notion of
calling a div a layer
: > does.
: >
: > So, in the absence of any style rules, FP would regard
this -
: >
: > <div>boooo!</div>
: >
: > as a layer?

Not quite. A layer is a div but not necessarily vice versa.
Its kind of hard to explain, but a webpage is 2 dimensional,
and layers more or less are a 3 dimensional concept. All
they really do is allow you to position items on top of each
other, and the 'layer' setting just determines what is on
top

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Hi Paul,

I wasn't aware of any ruffled feathers. We do get a bit spirited here from
time to time, but there's no animosity. We are all just enthusiastic about
what we do!

My comment was only with regards to your remark that it was due to the use
of Layers and Absolute positioning being to blame for what you considered to
"look like crap." Personally, I don't think it looks like crap at all. My
point was that the issue is not the use of certain formatting tools, any
more than good or bad carpentry can be attributed to the use of good or bad
tools. It is the skill of the person employing the tools which ultimately
decides the quality of the work.

And by that, I didn't intend to impugn your skills. It was a general comment
regarding the principle. We are all at various levels of skill, and I for
one am hardly satisfied with my own! I was merely trying to give you some
idea of what direction to take in terms of a solution. While I didn't offer
an immediate solution, my aim was to help you think in a more productive way
about how to get where you're wanting to go. In the long run!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Hard work is a medication for which
there is no placebo.