Open Type : Can't access all fonts in family

[Taliesin]

I've got an Open Type font family — DIN Pro — with ten fonts. Only three show up in Word: Bold Italic, Med Italic and Regular. All the rest are MIA no matter what I do. I've tried loading them in to my Systems fonts folder, controlling them with Font Agent Pro, deleting font caches, reinstalling the fonts, verifying them with Font Book, Font Agent Pro and Font Doctor, restarting the app, restarting my machine, deleting all Word and Office preferences — I've spent over four hours trying to get something to work that's so basic it shouldn't even be an issue. Had the same problem in Word 2004 and I've seen it on other machines. Here's the kicker: all ten fonts show up in all my other apps, other than Word, PPT and Excel. My Apple apps, my Adobe apps, my Omni apps — all show the entire family as one would expect. So what's the problem with Microsoft?

T.

 

[John McGhie]

I am afraid I have no idea.

Generally, Font Managers tend to complicate the picture so that it makes the
real problem very hard to diagnose.

What happens if you disable ALL the font utilities you have, then re-boot
the machine?

I am looking for information here: I am suggesting a diagnostic step that
will enable me to engage the developers with information that allows them to
investigate the issue.

I "suspect" that Word can't "see" the fonts because they were not visible
when Microsoft Office compiled its font cache.

But it's just a wild guess....

I've got an Open Type font family — DIN Pro — with ten fonts. Only three show
up in Word: Bold Italic, Med Italic and Regular. All the rest are MIA no
matter what I do. I've tried loading them in to my Systems fonts folder,
controlling them with Font Agent Pro, deleting font caches, reinstalling the
fonts, verifying them with Font Book, Font Agent Pro and Font Doctor,
restarting the app, restarting my machine, deleting all Word and Office
preferences — I've spent over four hours trying to get something to work
that's so basic it shouldn't even be an issue. Had the same problem in Word
2004 and I've seen it on other machines. Here's the kicker: all ten fonts show
up in all my other apps, other than Word, PPT and Excel. My Apple apps, my
Adobe apps, my Omni apps — all show the entire family as one would expect. So
what's the problem with Microsoft?

T.

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Taliesin]

Thanks, John. Yes, I'm afraid I've exhausted about every possible combination: with and without Font Agent Pro, with and without FontBook, deleting font caches, deleting preferences, verifying the fonts in three different utilities, restarting the apps, restarting the machine, reinstalling the fonts from the original vendors files, et al. Half a day of my life spent trying to fix something which by rights shouldn't even be an issue. Like I say, the same fonts are installing in ALL my non-Office apps. Really, really frustrating.

And so my 20-year hate/hate relationship with Word enters a new chapter. If it weren't for the fact that I have to share documents with other Word users because it's the de facto standard in the corporate world I'd have abandoned this over-bloated piece of junk years ago. The one redeeming feature that I actually like — and need — is change tracking. Other than that, the app is a black hole of frustration and a blight on my workflow process.

T.

 

[mlewanfr]

Ironically Microsoft Word has never been good at handling special font
features in OpenType fonts. Something as simple as ligatures is only
supported in the Mac version and only from Word 2008. I doubt you will
be able to solve this.

Cheers
Magnus

 

[Taliesin]

Well, I'm, not really interested in any "special features", unless you consider all fonts in a font family showing up as they do in all my other apps a special feature!

Best,

M.

 

[mlewanfr]

Well, I'm, not really interested in any "special features", unless you consider all fonts in a font family showing up as they do in all my other apps a special feature!

If I may go out on a limb here, I would guess that the fonts in the
font family are typefaces of the font (in the terminology of Apple's
character palette).

If that is the case, then I would actually be grateful that they do
not show up. The correct way to show such fonts is Font > Typefaces,
as Adobe and Apple do in their applications.

However, Microsoft has not cracked the mystery of typefaces yet, so
there is much confusion. For Adobe Jenson Pro, MS Word shows me 8
fonts (bold, ital, lt, lt ital... etc.). It plays the same trick with
other Adobe fonts, so my font list in Word is unusably long with
dozens of Adobe "fonts", which are actually type faces.

For some fonts, Word's limitations luckily go the other way. For
example, the font Skia shows up only once, even though it has 10
typefaces, most of which now are inaccessible by Word.

This second limitation saves the font list from being a whopping
disaster. Now it is just a standard disaster, as I can scroll through
it in less than a few minutes.

Knowing Word's limitations in accessing and properly using typefaces,
I would actually appreciate if more of them were hidden, until they
fix font handling correctly. I'm sure it will come one day. The
product is in constant evolution, and it has actually not been on the
market for much more than 20 years. There is still time.

Cheers
Magnus

 

[Curt Laird]

Hi Taliesin,
I¹m looking into this one. Do you know if this problem only occurs with this
font or are there other fonts on your system that are not showing up?

While I don¹t think we have these particular fonts in-house at the present
time, I¹ll see if our font expert has any ideas.

Thanks, and sorry for the trouble.


Curt

I've got an Open Type font family — DIN Pro — with ten fonts. Only three show
up in Word: Bold Italic, Med Italic and Regular. All the rest are MIA no
matter what I do. I've tried loading them in to my Systems fonts folder,
controlling them with Font Agent Pro, deleting font caches, reinstalling the
fonts, verifying them with Font Book, Font Agent Pro and Font Doctor,
restarting the app, restarting my machine, deleting all Word and Office
preferences — I've spent over four hours trying to get something to work
that's so basic it shouldn't even be an issue. Had the same problem in Word
2004 and I've seen it on other machines. Here's the kicker: all ten fonts show
up in all my other apps, other than Word, PPT and Excel. My Apple apps, my
Adobe apps, my Omni apps — all show the entire family as one would expect. So
what's the problem with Microsoft?

T.

--
Curt Laird
Software Development Engineer in Test
Microsoft MacBU - Word
(e-mail address removed) (remove ³ONLINE² for all replies)

This posting is provided ³AS IS² with no warranties, and confers no rights.

 

[Taliesin]

Hi, Curt—

I haven't done a font-by-font audit but other fonts seem to be appearing as expected. I can email the fonts to you, if that would help. I don't think that would be a violation of the license, considering the situation — especially if you promise to delete them when you're done!

Thanks,

T.

 

[Taliesin]

If I may go out on a limb here, I would guess that the fonts in the font family are typefaces of the font (in the terminology of Apple's
character palette).
  

Yes, that's probably the correct nomenclature.

If that is the case, then I would actually be grateful that they do not show up. The correct way to show such fonts is Font > Typefaces,
as Adobe and Apple do in their applications.
  

Yes, that's what I'm expecting as well. It does it for some fonts, but, in this case only three of the DIN Pro typefaces are showing up in the Font "submenu". As luck would have it, two of them are variants I seldom need. And the ones I need aren't showing up!

However, Microsoft has not cracked the mystery of typefaces yet, so there is much confusion. For Adobe Jenson Pro, MS Word shows me 8
fonts (bold, ital, lt, lt ital... etc.). It plays the same trick with
other Adobe fonts, so my font list in Word is unusably long with
dozens of Adobe "fonts", which are actually type faces.
  

Yes. Why the heck is this so hard?

For some fonts, Word's limitations luckily go the other way. For example, the font Skia shows up only once, even though it has 10
typefaces, most of which now are inaccessible by Word.
  

How is that a boon if I want to access one of those ten?

This second limitation saves the font list from being a whopping disaster. Now it is just a standard disaster, as I can scroll through
it in less than a few minutes.
  

Well, font management should be left to the user (see my other thread about having lots of foreign language fonts in my Word font menu that I'll never use).

Knowing Word's limitations in accessing and properly using typefaces, I would actually appreciate if more of them were hidden, until they
fix font handling correctly. I'm sure it will come one day. The
product is in constant evolution, and it has actually not been on the
market for much more than 20 years. There is still time.
  

Oh, man, that's rich. I've been using Word since 1988 or so (version 6?). It's unfathomable to me why I can't see my fonts in Office. The program virtually becomes unusable to me, as all our corporate materials require the use of this particular font/typefaces. I'm at my wit's end...

Thanks to all. Sorry if I come off a bit cantankerous, but — dang — this function is so fundamental...

Best,

T.

 

[Curt Laird]

Sure, I think having the fonts would be very helpful in tracking this one
down. My e-mail is below.

Thanks!

Curt

Hi, Curt—

I haven't done a font-by-font audit but other fonts seem to be appearing as
expected. I can email the fonts to you, if that would help. I don't think that
would be a violation of the license, considering the situation — especially if
you promise to delete them when you're done!

Thanks,

T.

--
Curt Laird
Software Development Engineer in Test
Microsoft MacBU - Word
(e-mail address removed) (remove ³ONLINE² for all replies)

This posting is provided ³AS IS² with no warranties, and confers no rights.

 

[garyeb]

I have the same problem with Kievit OT--works for everything but Office 2008. What is really stunning is that I was able to use these fonts in Office for Mac 2004. Indeed, I can open these old docs and Office handles them just fine for the fonts that are used in the doc. Occasionally I can even cut-and-paste to bring the fonts into new docs. Glad I created my templates before installing 2008. Curt, I will send you a 4.4 MB zip file of the fonts in question. As with others, this is not a trivial matter since all our docs use these fonts. Makes me wish I wouldn't have upgraded to 2008. Too much time wasted. Sadly, it's not just MS. Leopard was an equally frustrating upgrade.

Gary

 

[Curt Laird]

Hi Taliesin,
We have been able to reproduce this issue and we are investigating. A bug
has been filed, but I don¹t have any details as to the cause or if there are
any workarounds.

I noticed that some of the fonts showed up in the Font Menu and a few more
showed up in the Font Dialog, but not all fonts show up in either place.

If I come up with a workaround, I¹ll let you know.


More than likely, this will need to be addressed in a future update. Thanks
for your patience and help!


Curt

I've got an Open Type font family — DIN Pro — with ten fonts. Only three show
up in Word: Bold Italic, Med Italic and Regular. All the rest are MIA no
matter what I do. I've tried loading them in to my Systems fonts folder,
controlling them with Font Agent Pro, deleting font caches, reinstalling the
fonts, verifying them with Font Book, Font Agent Pro and Font Doctor,
restarting the app, restarting my machine, deleting all Word and Office
preferences — I've spent over four hours trying to get something to work
that's so basic it shouldn't even be an issue. Had the same problem in Word
2004 and I've seen it on other machines. Here's the kicker: all ten fonts show
up in all my other apps, other than Word, PPT and Excel. My Apple apps, my
Adobe apps, my Omni apps — all show the entire family as one would expect. So
what's the problem with Microsoft?

T.

--
Curt Laird
Software Development Engineer in Test
Microsoft MacBU - Word
(e-mail address removed) (remove ³ONLINE² for all replies)

This posting is provided ³AS IS² with no warranties, and confers no rights.