OS X and saving word files to server

[Shari Kubitz]

I am a senior systems analyst working for an educational research
center at the University of Pittsburgh. A couple of years ago we had
problems saving Word files to our network servers (Novell Netware 5)
and later discovered that it had to do with a Temporary Items folder
that had been automatically created by Word in a location where the
users did not have access. After that, we did not have major problems
(although we saw many Word Work files remaining after files were
closed).

About a month ago, we began to see a similar problem, but it is much
worse now. Specifically with files that are frequently modified, we
see Disk Full errors, Too Many Files Open errors, and Unrecoverable
Disk Errors which always point to problems saving the Word Work file.
We've also seen at least 2 instances where the original file
disappears and is replaced by a word work file.

I know there was a post about this at the beginning of 2003 and it
seems that Apple eventually solved the problem with 10.2.4. I am
wondering if the problem was reintroduced with a more recent OS
update--most of the computers affected are using Panther (10.3.x).

I was hoping that Word 2004 would solve it but found it to be even
worse--almost immediately getting Too Many Files Open error and having
Word quit.

This is a very serious problem and I hope that someone knows of a
workaround or, even better, a solution.

Shari Kubitz

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

HI Shari,

This is a very serious problem and I hope that someone knows of a
workaround or, even better, a solution.

What happens if you give rw access to all on the temporary folder and its
content ??

Corentin

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Shari:

I am not aware of anything Microsoft has done recently to make anything
"worse". They are still working on the problem, but for most situations it
has been fixed.

Sorry -- if you care to email me full diagnostic information, I will
escalate the issue for you.

Regards

I am a senior systems analyst working for an educational research
center at the University of Pittsburgh. A couple of years ago we had
problems saving Word files to our network servers (Novell Netware 5)
and later discovered that it had to do with a Temporary Items folder
that had been automatically created by Word in a location where the
users did not have access. After that, we did not have major problems
(although we saw many Word Work files remaining after files were
closed).

About a month ago, we began to see a similar problem, but it is much
worse now. Specifically with files that are frequently modified, we
see Disk Full errors, Too Many Files Open errors, and Unrecoverable
Disk Errors which always point to problems saving the Word Work file.
We've also seen at least 2 instances where the original file
disappears and is replaced by a word work file.

I know there was a post about this at the beginning of 2003 and it
seems that Apple eventually solved the problem with 10.2.4. I am
wondering if the problem was reintroduced with a more recent OS
update--most of the computers affected are using Panther (10.3.x).

I was hoping that Word 2004 would solve it but found it to be even
worse--almost immediately getting Too Many Files Open error and having
Word quit.

This is a very serious problem and I hope that someone knows of a
workaround or, even better, a solution.

Shari Kubitz

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Fredrik Wahlgren]

I am a senior systems analyst working for an educational research
center at the University of Pittsburgh. A couple of years ago we had
problems saving Word files to our network servers (Novell Netware 5)
and later discovered that it had to do with a Temporary Items folder
that had been automatically created by Word in a location where the
users did not have access. After that, we did not have major problems
(although we saw many Word Work files remaining after files were
closed).

About a month ago, we began to see a similar problem, but it is much
worse now. Specifically with files that are frequently modified, we
see Disk Full errors, Too Many Files Open errors, and Unrecoverable
Disk Errors which always point to problems saving the Word Work file.
We've also seen at least 2 instances where the original file
disappears and is replaced by a word work file.

I know there was a post about this at the beginning of 2003 and it
seems that Apple eventually solved the problem with 10.2.4. I am
wondering if the problem was reintroduced with a more recent OS
update--most of the computers affected are using Panther (10.3.x).

I was hoping that Word 2004 would solve it but found it to be even
worse--almost immediately getting Too Many Files Open error and having
Word quit.

This is a very serious problem and I hope that someone knows of a
workaround or, even better, a solution.

Shari Kubitz

I think this document may help:
http://www.mcgimpsey.com/macoffice/word/disk_full.html

/ Fredrik

 

[Shari Kubitz]

Corentin,

It isn't a rights issue. As admin, I have the same problem. It seems
to be related to the following (which was supposed to have been
resolved with Mac OS 10.3.3. We have upgraded our computers to 10.3.5
and still have the problem.
http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/Can'tSaveToServer.htm

Shari

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

Corentin,

Hi Shari,

It isn't a rights issue. As admin, I have the same problem. It seems
to be related to the following (which was supposed to have been
resolved with Mac OS 10.3.3.

I had so much hope... I was somehiw under the impression it didn't affect
admin users adn later realized I was confusing two threads (or mixing them
up).

We have upgraded our computers to 10.3.5
and still have the problem.
http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/Can'tSaveToServer.htm

Does the workaround mentioned in this article help ??

Corentin

 

[cp]

I am not aware of anything Microsoft has done recently to make anything
"worse". They are still working on the problem, but for most situations it
has been fixed.

Sorry -- if you care to email me full diagnostic information, I will
escalate the issue for you.

I can confirm that Word 2004 has more problems with Netware volumes
than its predecessor.

With version X (10.1.6) oranization-wide we had occaissional problems
on most G3/G4 machines saving work to the Netware server. With the copy
of 2004 that I have tested (a fresh install and patched to 11.1.0 with
the service pack from MicroSoft's Web site) on a G4 1.25ghz with
Panther 10.3.5 the problems were immediate and severe.

We set 'Allow fast saves' disabled and 'Always create backup copy'
enabled, All other options are the defaults. We also are running
Extensis Suitcase 11.0.2. It is running, but it is not managing the
fonts that Word installs. Duplicate fonts with the same name (i.e.,
Arial, Trebuchet MS) from previous Word installs have been deleted.

A user can create (save as) or open a Word file (any version) on our
Netware server (Netware 6 sp 4). After any kind of alteration - as
small as a single space - Word 2004 does one or more of five things.
This happens every time save or save as (Word Format) is attempted.

1) Word hangs and it must be forced to quit.

2) The familiar dialog appears that reads: "Word cannot complete the
operation because too many files are open (documentname)"

3) A dialog box appears that reads: "Word failed reading from file
(documentname)". This dialog has a cancel and retry button. If the user
is lucky, cancel brings up the dialog box in 2) and the user can save
as to save the document as an RTF document to their local hard drive
and continue.

4) The above as in 3) happens, but canceling brings up another dialog
box that reads: "Word has lost data due to a bad network connection.
Documents relying on this datea are going to be saved and then closed."

Word creates a Rescued Docuemnt file in the same directory (doesn't
matter if you've specified a different directory for auto recovery) and
closes the current document. The current docuemnt has partial changes
saved, but is marked as in-use. The user can unmount the Netware volume
and mount it again to continue working on the document.

5) The current document is replaced with the Word Work file. The
original is deleted from the server, and 2, 3, or 4 above happens.

In all cases, unless Word hangs or closes the document, it is possible
to do a save as using RTF as the format. When this option is chosen,
the only save error that is observed is the condition in 5) above. With
Always create backup copy disabled, that error seems to go away,
although we have not tested extensively.

Similar problems were not reported with a Xinet server running
KA/Share. Douments saved to local volumes did not experience the
problems either. Neither of the last two conditions were tested
extensively.

We have tried the FixDiskFullIssue.dot template and other trouble
shooting techiques from sites referenced in previous posts. None of
them seem make the problem any less severe or immediate.

Any other experiences with Word and Netware would be appreciated.

Christopher Pryce
cpryce at srfconsulting dot com

 

[John McGhie]

Thanks Christopher:

I've put that through to the developers for you.

cheers

I can confirm that Word 2004 has more problems with Netware volumes
than its predecessor.

With version X (10.1.6) oranization-wide we had occaissional problems
on most G3/G4 machines saving work to the Netware server. With the copy
of 2004 that I have tested (a fresh install and patched to 11.1.0 with
the service pack from MicroSoft's Web site) on a G4 1.25ghz with
Panther 10.3.5 the problems were immediate and severe.

We set 'Allow fast saves' disabled and 'Always create backup copy'
enabled, All other options are the defaults. We also are running
Extensis Suitcase 11.0.2. It is running, but it is not managing the
fonts that Word installs. Duplicate fonts with the same name (i.e.,
Arial, Trebuchet MS) from previous Word installs have been deleted.

A user can create (save as) or open a Word file (any version) on our
Netware server (Netware 6 sp 4). After any kind of alteration - as
small as a single space - Word 2004 does one or more of five things.
This happens every time save or save as (Word Format) is attempted.

1) Word hangs and it must be forced to quit.

2) The familiar dialog appears that reads: "Word cannot complete the
operation because too many files are open (documentname)"

3) A dialog box appears that reads: "Word failed reading from file
(documentname)". This dialog has a cancel and retry button. If the user
is lucky, cancel brings up the dialog box in 2) and the user can save
as to save the document as an RTF document to their local hard drive
and continue.

4) The above as in 3) happens, but canceling brings up another dialog
box that reads: "Word has lost data due to a bad network connection.
Documents relying on this datea are going to be saved and then closed."

Word creates a Rescued Docuemnt file in the same directory (doesn't
matter if you've specified a different directory for auto recovery) and
closes the current document. The current docuemnt has partial changes
saved, but is marked as in-use. The user can unmount the Netware volume
and mount it again to continue working on the document.

5) The current document is replaced with the Word Work file. The
original is deleted from the server, and 2, 3, or 4 above happens.

In all cases, unless Word hangs or closes the document, it is possible
to do a save as using RTF as the format. When this option is chosen,
the only save error that is observed is the condition in 5) above. With
Always create backup copy disabled, that error seems to go away,
although we have not tested extensively.

Similar problems were not reported with a Xinet server running
KA/Share. Douments saved to local volumes did not experience the
problems either. Neither of the last two conditions were tested
extensively.

We have tried the FixDiskFullIssue.dot template and other trouble
shooting techiques from sites referenced in previous posts. None of
them seem make the problem any less severe or immediate.

Any other experiences with Word and Netware would be appreciated.

Christopher Pryce
cpryce at srfconsulting dot com

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Shari Kubitz]

Unfortunately, none of the workarounds seem to work.

 

[cp]

Thanks Christopher:

I've put that through to the developers for you.

What's the usual timetable for hearing back on a problem like this?

 

[John McGhie]

There's no such thing as "usual"

In this case, I got a request for more information...

1. We are using the built-in AFP from Novell to access the Netware 6 server.
When the Novell Admin is in later today I will run this question by him, and
see if I can get a better answer. The netware server is the AppleTalk Router
if that makes a difference. I believe that it is AppleTalk over IP. I
believe that we have eliminated IPX from the EtherNet. I will verify both of
the later statements when I can.

And find out the version of AFP

2. Xinet version is 12.0 and is the most current available. From their Web
site:
K-AShare is a full implementation of AFP, the AppleTalk Filing Protocol (AFP
2.2 compliance). It uses K-Talk, Xinet's implementation of the AppleTalk
network communications protocols. AppleTalk protocols run on both LocalTalk
and Ethernet networks with EtherTalk protocols. EtherTalk can co-exist on an
Ethernet with other protocols such as TCP/IP or XNS.

AFP 2.2 is really old. It's limited to 31 character file names, etc. That
could cause problems, if word is saving as unicode for file names.

If you can check these versions, we can keep going ...

What's the usual timetable for hearing back on a problem like this?

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[cp]

In this case, I got a request for more information...


And find out the version of AFP


AFP 2.2 is really old. It's limited to 31 character file names, etc. That
could cause problems, if word is saving as unicode for file names.

If you can check these versions, we can keep going ...

Xinet isn't having problems, so the advice about the 31 character
filenames is heeded, but not germain.

Since posting yesterday, my Novell Administrator informs me that,
according to Novell, the issue is resolved with Netware 6.0 Service
Pack 5 and higher. We have scheduled an upgrade, and I'll post the
results when I'm able.

 

[Shari Kubitz]

John,

What information do you need in order to escalate the issue?

Thanks!

Shari

 

[John McGhie]

Thanks Chris:

I would be very interested in your results. This problem is a hardy
perennial in this group!!

Cheers

Xinet isn't having problems, so the advice about the 31 character
filenames is heeded, but not germain.

Since posting yesterday, my Novell Administrator informs me that,
according to Novell, the issue is resolved with Netware 6.0 Service
Pack 5 and higher. We have scheduled an upgrade, and I'll post the
results when I'm able.

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Shari:

They need full versions and levels of every piece of software an hardware in
the "chain".

Macintosh BU will attempt to replicate the environment exactly in order to
test for the problem. They will then fire up a checked build of Word that
enables them to obtain a diagnostic trace of the whole operation.

Cheers

John,

What information do you need in order to escalate the issue?

Thanks!

Shari

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Shari Kubitz]

John I have additional test results. I did some additional testing
with Windows NT and Windows 2003 server. When logging in with SMB to
either server, a folder is created called Temporary Items as soon as
Word saves a file. Everything then seems to work properly. This
folder can be deleted.

When logging in from OS X to NT4 using MacFile (which works like AFP),
you get a Temporary Items folder, but there are serious problems
(files disappearing, being replaced with word work files, etc) and you
see numerous word work files (smiliar to problems we are seeing with
Novell). In this situation, the Temporary Items folder can not be
deleted (OS X reports that it is being used by the system). Word can
be closed and the computer can be rebooted and the folder still
reports itself as being in use.

So, the problems do not seem to be limited to Novell, but it appears
to be a protocol issue. What is strange is that we saw it start
suddenly (without an upgrade of Office or changes in Novell).

Unfortunately, we can not use SMB for our Novell servers at this time.

Could I email you crash logs in MS Word?

Shari

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Shari:

Just hang about there for a day or two. I have forwarded this in to
Jeffrey's people at the Mac BU and we will wait for them to contact you.

Cheers

John I have additional test results. I did some additional testing
with Windows NT and Windows 2003 server. When logging in with SMB to
either server, a folder is created called Temporary Items as soon as
Word saves a file. Everything then seems to work properly. This
folder can be deleted.

When logging in from OS X to NT4 using MacFile (which works like AFP),
you get a Temporary Items folder, but there are serious problems
(files disappearing, being replaced with word work files, etc) and you
see numerous word work files (smiliar to problems we are seeing with
Novell). In this situation, the Temporary Items folder can not be
deleted (OS X reports that it is being used by the system). Word can
be closed and the computer can be rebooted and the folder still
reports itself as being in use.

So, the problems do not seem to be limited to Novell, but it appears
to be a protocol issue. What is strange is that we saw it start
suddenly (without an upgrade of Office or changes in Novell).

Unfortunately, we can not use SMB for our Novell servers at this time.

Could I email you crash logs in MS Word?

Shari

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[John McGhie]

Actually...

Sorry Shari, but I can't send that in to the testers yet, because you do not
have your software version and patch levels in there. Without precise
software version levels, no-one will look at it.

Sorry...

John I have additional test results. I did some additional testing
with Windows NT and Windows 2003 server. When logging in with SMB to
either server, a folder is created called Temporary Items as soon as
Word saves a file. Everything then seems to work properly. This
folder can be deleted.

When logging in from OS X to NT4 using MacFile (which works like AFP),
you get a Temporary Items folder, but there are serious problems
(files disappearing, being replaced with word work files, etc) and you
see numerous word work files (smiliar to problems we are seeing with
Novell). In this situation, the Temporary Items folder can not be
deleted (OS X reports that it is being used by the system). Word can
be closed and the computer can be rebooted and the folder still
reports itself as being in use.

So, the problems do not seem to be limited to Novell, but it appears
to be a protocol issue. What is strange is that we saw it start
suddenly (without an upgrade of Office or changes in Novell).

Unfortunately, we can not use SMB for our Novell servers at this time.

Could I email you crash logs in MS Word?

Shari

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[cp]

John I have additional test results. I did some additional testing
with Windows NT and Windows 2003 server. When logging in with SMB to
either server, a folder is created called Temporary Items as soon as
Word saves a file. Everything then seems to work properly. This
folder can be deleted.

When logging in from OS X to NT4 using MacFile (which works like AFP),
you get a Temporary Items folder, but there are serious problems
(files disappearing, being replaced with word work files, etc) and you
see numerous word work files (smiliar to problems we are seeing with
Novell). In this situation, the Temporary Items folder can not be
deleted (OS X reports that it is being used by the system). Word can
be closed and the computer can be rebooted and the folder still
reports itself as being in use.

So, the problems do not seem to be limited to Novell, but it appears
to be a protocol issue. What is strange is that we saw it start
suddenly (without an upgrade of Office or changes in Novell).

Unfortunately, we can not use SMB for our Novell servers at this time.

I cannot speak to Netware 4.x. However, there is a TID that covers
errors saving MS Word documents to a Netware 5.1 server. The TID is
10094653.

The solution mentioned is to replace the AFPTCP.NLM in Netware with 5.1
with the NLM from service pack from Netware 6.0, dated later than May
19. 2004.

In our case, we run Netware 6.0 to begin with, so we installed the
entire service pack 5 and it seems to have solved the problem. I did a
test with files that were corrupting immediately after being saved on a
Netware 6.0 volume. Those errors were elimnated.

 

[John McGhie]

Thanks Chris:

Would you please write up brief technical details of the whole
disagnosis/solution to this and email it to me? Just enough to enable a
network administrator to find and solve the problem will be fine...

I would like to put it on the website for the benefit of others. We have
very few Netware people here to help...

Cheers

I cannot speak to Netware 4.x. However, there is a TID that covers
errors saving MS Word documents to a Netware 5.1 server. The TID is
10094653.

The solution mentioned is to replace the AFPTCP.NLM in Netware with 5.1
with the NLM from service pack from Netware 6.0, dated later than May
19. 2004.

In our case, we run Netware 6.0 to begin with, so we installed the
entire service pack 5 and it seems to have solved the problem. I did a
test with files that were corrupting immediately after being saved on a
Netware 6.0 volume. Those errors were elimnated.

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410