Outline Numbering in 2007

[McSwell]

Our office recently downgraded (yes, I mean that ) to Word 2007
from Word 2003. One of my (many) complaints about 2007 is the way it
makes it harder to work with styles. In particular, outline/ legal
numbering is not available from the styles dialog, only plain
numbering or bullets. This strikes me as bizarre.

I can set outline numbering from the ribbon (it's hidden--I only found
it by looking for msgs in this group), but it's not apparent whether
doing that sets the outline numbering for the particular paragraph you
have selected at the moment, or for all paragraphs of the same style.
It seems to be the latter, but in that case it works differently from
any other setting you might make from the ribbon. At least I think
that if I bold something in a random paragraph using the ribbon, it
doesn't add bolding to the style of that paragraph.

So this is not so much a question, as a suggestion offered in the
hopes that someone from Microsoft reads this group, or that some MVP
who does read it can send suggestions to Microsoft. Put the option to
do outline/ legal numbering back into the dialog box for modifying a
style.

(Frankly, there are enough things I dislike about Word 2007 that I may
jump to Open Office, because Open Office is modeled after the much
more logical Word 2003.)

Mike Maxwell

 

[Stefan Blom]

Our office recently downgraded (yes, I mean that ) to Word 2007
from Word 2003. One of my (many) complaints about 2007 is the way it
makes it harder to work with styles. In particular, outline/ legal
numbering is not available from the styles dialog, only plain
numbering or bullets. This strikes me as bizarre.

This is certainly a bit confusing, as it might make you think that you don't
have to use paragraph styles with numbering anymore. But you still should.
In fact, to create new outline-level lists in Word 2007, it is recommended
that you make use of list styles *and* associate each level with a paragraph
style.

More specifically, do the following to create an outline-numbered list in
Word 2007: On the Home tab, click Multilevel List, and then click Define New
List Style. Type a name for the style. To specify the formatting for each
level, and to associate a paragraph style with each level, click the Format
button, and then click Numbering (this will present a dialog box similar to
the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog box of Word 97–2003).

In order to apply such a list to text, you could apply the list style, but
it will be easier to apply the appropriate paragraph style directly.

To edit a list style, you can use the Manage Styles dialog box (click the
Manage Styles button in the Styles pane).

Whenever you want to edit a list that was created without a list style, just
place the insertion point in the first top-level paragraph of the list (for
heading numbering, this means the first Heading 1 paragraph of the
document), and then click Home tab | Multilevel List | Define New Multilevel
List.

I can set outline numbering from the ribbon (it's hidden--I only found
it by looking for msgs in this group), but it's not apparent whether
doing that sets the outline numbering for the particular paragraph you
have selected at the moment, or for all paragraphs of the same style.
It seems to be the latter, but in that case it works differently from
any other setting you might make from the ribbon. At least I think
that if I bold something in a random paragraph using the ribbon, it
doesn't add bolding to the style of that paragraph.

I'd say that Word tries to apply changes to the list, not necessarily to the
paragraph style. There is one important exception here, though: If you are
using a paragraph style associated with a single-level list, and you are
changing settings such as indentation, Word will ask if you want to update
the style. This is actually an improvement, in my opinion.

~~~
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP

 

[McSwell]

...
I'd say that Word tries to apply changes to the list, not necessarily to the
paragraph style. There is one important exception here, though: If you are
using a paragraph style associated with a single-level list, and you are
changing settings such as indentation, Word will ask if you want to update
the style. This is actually an improvement, in my opinion.

Thanks for the reply--I'm only just now getting back to this. (You
were much more prompt!)

I guess the new way of applying changes makes some sense, but it's
hard to remember the hierarchy of exceptions when I so seldom do
this. I think you're saying the hierarchy works like this: if you
apply a format to a paragraph, it only applies to that paragraph;
unless it's a numbering (or bullet etc.) format, in which case it
tries to apply that to the list style if the paragraph is in a list,
or to the heading style if the paragraph is in a heading style; and
unless it is an indentation style, in which case Word asks if it
should update the style. I think that's what you're saying, but I'm
sure this old brain is going to forget that the next time it tries
something like this...just like I keep forgetting what the icons in
the ribbon are supposed to mean, and have to do a mouse-over to see
the words that used to be in the menus...and keep mousing over various
icons until I find the one I want.

Mike Maxwell

 

[Stefan Blom]

List formatting behaves differently because it is controlled by numbering
schemes, so-called list templates. Unlike "ordinary" paragraph formatting,
such as line spacing, which can be applied to a single paragraph, list
formatting at a specific level applies to all levels (of the same list).

The choice you are given when modifying the list formatting of a
single-level list attached to a paragraph style is really whether you want
to update the current list format or create a new one for use with the
current paragraph.

~~~
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP

...
I'd say that Word tries to apply changes to the list, not necessarily to
the
paragraph style. There is one important exception here, though: If you are
using a paragraph style associated with a single-level list, and you are
changing settings such as indentation, Word will ask if you want to update
the style. This is actually an improvement, in my opinion.

Thanks for the reply--I'm only just now getting back to this. (You
were much more prompt!)

I guess the new way of applying changes makes some sense, but it's
hard to remember the hierarchy of exceptions when I so seldom do
this. I think you're saying the hierarchy works like this: if you
apply a format to a paragraph, it only applies to that paragraph;
unless it's a numbering (or bullet etc.) format, in which case it
tries to apply that to the list style if the paragraph is in a list,
or to the heading style if the paragraph is in a heading style; and
unless it is an indentation style, in which case Word asks if it
should update the style. I think that's what you're saying, but I'm
sure this old brain is going to forget that the next time it tries
something like this...just like I keep forgetting what the icons in
the ribbon are supposed to mean, and have to do a mouse-over to see
the words that used to be in the menus...and keep mousing over various
icons until I find the one I want.

Mike Maxwell

 

[Vassil Velichkov]

Hi,

I hope Stefan will see my comments and will reply to them. I have the same
problem with Word 2007 (I consider my self as a very advanced Word user)

This is certainly a bit confusing, as it might make you think that you don't
have to use paragraph styles with numbering anymore. But you still should.
In fact, to create new outline-level lists in Word 2007, it is recommended
that you make use of list styles *and* associate each level with a paragraph
style.

This is not quite different from Word 2003 - you always link Outline levels
to Heading styles, especially if you want to have TOC.

More specifically, do the following to create an outline-numbered list in
Word 2007: On the Home tab, click Multilevel List, and then click Define New
List Style. Type a name for the style. To specify the formatting for each
level, and to associate a paragraph style with each level, click the Format
button, and then click Numbering (this will present a dialog box similar to
the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog box of Word 97–2003).

I would like to point out a few problems here:
1. There is no way to set a custom name for a new Multilevel List Style. You
could change all the advanced options, you could manualy save it in the
library, but there is no (visible) way to set a meaningful name for List
Style.
2. Once you "Define a new Multilevel List", change the settings and press
OK, the default "List" icon on the "Paragraph" pane is being set to "Number
Formats", not to the "Multilevel List" icon, so by no means you could go back
and edit the same "List Style". Where is the logic?
3. Where is the logic to go and click "Define New Multilevel List" everytime
when you want to edit and/or tweak an advanced setting?
4. Everytime when I go and select "Define New Multilevel List" in order to
tweak a setting, my Pragraph Style Formatting is being reset to the default
settings for the list. There is no automatic two-way association between the
overalpping settings of the "List Style" and the "Paragraph Style", no matter
that they are linked! Identation, Tab Stops etc...

In order to apply such a list to text, you could apply the list style, but
it will be easier to apply the appropriate paragraph style directly.

To edit a list style, you can use the Manage Styles dialog box (click the
Manage Styles button in the Styles pane).

After scratching my head a little bit I found the "Manage Styles" button on
the Styles pane - "nice" GUI - you have Iconed buttons, you have a hyper-link
for "Options"....
Anyway, "Manage Styles" has no different functionality from the one the use
could access by right-clicking on a Style in the list and selecting
"Modify"...I still have access only to "Numbering". The only way to get to
the "Multilevel List" definition / advanced settings dialog is to use the
QuickBar and to click "Define New Multilevel List"...Isn't it just GREAT? But
then we come back to the problem with the missing automatic two-way
association between the paragraph and the list styles described above...I
will give you a quick example:
1. Go and define a new Multilevel List. Link Level 1 to Heading 1 and tweak
the advanced settings, so you have a "Tab" character after the List
Numbering, with a Tab Stop of 0.
2. Move the Tab Stop position by moving the marker on the Ruler to say 1".
Right click on Heading 1 in the Style List and select "Update Heading 1 to
match selection".
3. Now, if you go to "Define New Multilevel List" to change something else,
you will see that the "Tab Stop" option is still 0...

Microsoft should admit that by trying to simplify the user interface in Word
2007 just scraped certain functionality either by mistake or...due to lack of
time...

 

[PamC via OfficeKB.com]

Outline numbering and multilevel list numbering are very similar.
For Word 2003, you enter the _customize outline numbered list_ dialog by
modifying the highest paragraph style level (usually heading 1). For Word
2007, you enter the _define new multilevel list_ dialog by clicking the
multilevel list button on the Home tab. For both, the recommended practice
is to first click a numbering scheme that is close to what you want, and then
click _define new multilevel list_ (W2007) or _customize_ (W2003) to get to
the dialogs. Another thing that is very similar is that whether you
customize an outline numbered list or define a new multilevel list, Word
creates a new list. That list “scheme†cannot be modified, though it can be
replaced.

I use the terms “numbering scheme†and “list scheme†because the items in
the outline number list gallery (W2003) and those in the multilevel list,
list library section are not list styles. Many people whose numbering needs
are easily met by the built-in list schemes won’t need to use list styles in
W2007.

There's a pretty big difference between list styles in W2003 and W2007.
In W2003 the numbering levels could not be linked to a paragraph style and
were not much used. In W2007, list styles have all the options available to
list schemes. But list styles can be named, saved, transferred via the
organizer, and modified. The list styles section of the multilevel list
gallery does not appear until a list style has been created. Word shows the
style name when you hover the cursor over the list style icon. Right
clicking on the icon gives the option to modify.

HTH,
Pam

 

[Vassil Velichkov]

Fresh perspective on the problem, but I disagree with some of the statements.
Please, see below...

Outline numbering and multilevel list numbering are very similar.
For Word 2003, you enter the _customize outline numbered list_ dialog by
modifying the highest paragraph style level (usually heading 1). For Word
2007, you enter the _define new multilevel list_ dialog by clicking the
multilevel list button on the Home tab. For both, the recommended practice
is to first click a numbering scheme that is close to what you want, and then
click _define new multilevel list_ (W2007) or _customize_ (W2003) to get to
the dialogs. Another thing that is very similar is that whether you
customize an outline numbered list or define a new multilevel list, Word
creates a new list. That list “scheme†cannot be modified, though it can be
replaced.

Actually, I found a way to modify it, tough it is weird:
1. Right Click on the Multilevel List Number Item you want to modify
(directly in the document)
2. Select "Adjust List Indents..." from the contect menu (STRANGE MENU
CAPTION!)
3. Voila - a dialog is open and you could change the Multi Level List settings

I use the terms “numbering scheme†and “list scheme†because the items in
the outline number list gallery (W2003) and those in the multilevel list,
list library section are not list styles. Many people whose numbering needs
are easily met by the built-in list schemes won’t need to use list styles in
W2007.

There's a pretty big difference between list styles in W2003 and W2007.
In W2003 the numbering levels could not be linked to a paragraph style and
were not much used.

Sorry, that's not true. In W2003 you could go to Format -> Bullets and
Numbering -> Outline Numbered -> Select a predefined scheme -> Click
Customize -> Click More -> you will see a Combo Box alowing you to link each
Outline Level to different Paragraph Style...

In W2007, list styles have all the options available to

list schemes. But list styles can be named, saved, transferred via the
organizer, and modified. The list styles section of the multilevel list
gallery does not appear until a list style has been created. Word shows the
style name when you hover the cursor over the list style icon. Right
clicking on the icon gives the option to modify.

Very intuitive ;-)
Actually I complain because of the BUGs! I could leave somehow with the bad
usability of the GUI.
I could describe about 3 very weird bugs:
1. Tab Stops defined in the Paragraph Styles are being reset everytime when
you modify the Multilevel List settings
2. Hanging Idents defined in the Paragraph Styles are being reset everytime
when you modify the Multilevel List settings
3. Deleting (not zeroeing, but deleting) values from edit/combo boxes from
the Multilevel List Dialog leads to weird results - visual corruption of the
GUI (Style Pane, document contents), numbering dissapears, Word crashes etc.

To be continued...;-)

 

[PamC via OfficeKB.com]

Actually, I found a way to modify it, tough it is weird:

1. Right Click on the Multilevel List Number Item you want to modify
(directly in the document)
2. Select "Adjust List Indents..." from the contect menu (STRANGE MENU
CAPTION!)
3. Voila - a dialog is open and you could change the Multi Level List settings

Yes, but what Word does is create a new list scheme.

Sorry, that's not true. In W2003 you could go to Format -> Bullets and
Numbering -> Outline Numbered -> Select a predefined scheme -> Click
Customize -> Click More -> you will see a Combo Box alowing you to link each
Outline Level to different Paragraph Style...

You are confusing the numbering schemes on W2003's outline numbered tab with
the styles on the list styles tab. My comment that the numbering levels in
W2003 list styles (one tab to the right of outline lists) cannot be linked
the paragraph styles is correct.

Actually I complain because of the BUGs! I could leave somehow with the bad
usability of the GUI.
I could describe about 3 very weird bugs:
1. Tab Stops defined in the Paragraph Styles are being reset everytime when
you modify the Multilevel List settings
2. Hanging Idents defined in the Paragraph Styles are being reset everytime
when you modify the Multilevel List settings

3. Deleting (not zeroeing, but deleting) values from edit/combo boxes from
the Multilevel List Dialog leads to weird results - visual corruption of the
GUI (Style Pane, document contents), numbering dissapears, Word crashes etc.

The behavior in your complaints 1 and 2 is different from W2003's behavior,
but it is probably by design. I could not duplicate the behavior in your
complaint 3.

Pam

 

[Lisa]

Dear Pam C.

I am having the same issues as you were having. Did you get them
straightened out?

I was thrown into 2007 when I began a new job. I was a whiz at outline
numbered lists in Word 2003, yet seem stupid because I can't get them to work
properly in 2007. Were you ever able to get this straightened out?

I am trying to use MS help menus, but they seem to offer little hope. I've
resorted to searching on the Internet for outside help and blogs, which is
where I found your complaint listed. If you have found an easy solution, I
would appreciate it if you could please email me back.

I'll have to research further to figure out how to design custom toolbar
buttons; something I was also a whiz at in Word 2003. I haven't even found
this option in 2007....yikes!!


Lisa M.

 

[Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com]

Dear Pam C.

I am having the same issues as you were having. Did you get them
straightened out?

I was thrown into 2007 when I began a new job. I was a whiz at outline
numbered lists in Word 2003, yet seem stupid because I can't get them to work
properly in 2007. Were you ever able to get this straightened out?

I am trying to use MS help menus, but they seem to offer little hope. I've
resorted to searching on the Internet for outside help and blogs, which is
where I found your complaint listed. If you have found an easy solution, I
would appreciate it if you could please email me back.

The biggest difference is the access. To apply multilevel list (called
outline list in W2003) numbering, first place the cursor in the first heading
1 (or highest level heading) in your document, then click the multilevel
list icon on the Home tab and select a list gallery icon that is close to
what you want ( say, one with heading levels already linked). Word will
apply the list scheme to you document If the default settings are what you
want, you are done. If you need to change something: with your cursor still
in that first heading 1, click the ML icon, then choose Define new multilevel
list (this is the equivalent of "Customize" in W2003). You will then see a
familiar dialog.

If you find yourself making the same changes whenever you create a new list
or if you want to share a particular list setup with other documents and
users, consider list styles. They are the same as lists and have the added
benefit of being like paragraph styles--you can modify, save, transfer to
other documents and templates, and delete them. There's a new Word Team
blog about this here:
http://blogs.msdn.com/microsoft_office_word/default.aspx

Pam

I'll have to research further to figure out how to design custom toolbar
buttons; something I was also a whiz at in Word 2003. I haven't even found
this option in 2007....yikes!!

The option to create custom toolbars is not a part of W2007. However you can
add almost anything to the Quick Access Toolbar. Between the ribbon, the
ability to add to the QAT, and the ability to change style sets you can make
W2007 very useful for you and your users.

Lisa M.

Outline numbering and multilevel list numbering are very similar.
For Word 2003, you enter the _customize outline numbered list_ dialog by

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