page numbering trouble

[Julia in Wisconsin]

Hello,

I'm trying to follow the advice I found here:
http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/PageNumbering.htm but it's not
working for me. I'm working in Word X on a G4 Mac.

I'm trying to get my husband's thesis ready to send off, and
UCBerkeley wants the title page to have no number, the abstract to
have Arabic numbers (in my case, it's just a one page abstract, so
just "1"), the remaining preliminary pages to be numbered i, ii, iii,
and then the main text to be numbered 1,2,3.

I have set up the title page and abstract in "Section 1" by inserting
a section break. I can successfully code for no page number on the
title page ("first page different"), and "Arabic" number, starting
with 1, on the abstract page. Good. But then when I move to section
2, Table of Contents, followed by List of Tables and List of Figures,
and set the page style like so {PAGE \*roman} then suddenly the footer
fields for the first section have been changed without my wanting
it--they ALL say "roman."

I need to start with Arabic, switch to lower case roman, then switch
back to Arabic. I will not consider using the "Master Document"
feature, after what I've read today about that. My husband said he
had a template called "thesis" that he found on his PC at work but I
don't have that here at home on our Mac.

Any advice or link appreciated,

Julia in Wisconsin

 

[Dayo Mitchell]

You probably don't want MS's thesis template anyhow.

You need to unlink some of your sections. There's an icon on the
header/footer toolbar you can toggle to turn off Same As Previous. (Big
Idea #5 in the page you cite)

I posted some other advice for you on the Mac.word group.

DM

 

[AA]

then suddenly the footer

fields for the first section have been changed without my wanting
it--they ALL say "roman."

Have you removed "same as previous" from the footer? It's one of the
buttons on the Header&Footer toolbar.

 

[Julia in Wisconsin]

Have you removed "same as previous" from the footer? It's one of the
buttons on the Header&Footer toolbar.

Thanks for the advice, folks! I was unclicking "continue from
previous section" in the menu for page numbering, but I hadn't
unclicked the "same as previous" button (which has a cryptic graphic,
if you ask me!! .

I am still going to have LOTS of questions. I've decided I need to
set up a new template, but I should start a new thread to ask about
that, right?

Julia in Wisconsin

 

[Dayo Mitchell]

I am still going to have LOTS of questions. I've decided I need to
set up a new template, but I should start a new thread to ask about
that, right?

Yes, you should set up a new thread. You might in fact want to move the
discussion to the newsgroup microsoft.public.word.formatting.longdocs, which
is supposed to be dedicated to things like that, though a lot of experts
follow both groups. But if you are searching for specific issues, you might
want to include that one. It is a little less busy than word.docmanagement.

Before you ask your template questions, review the links below, and play
with the ideas laid out. If you have a few hours to devote to it, I would
say that making a copy of the dissertation and just experimenting with it
will teach you a lot. (that's what I did, in building my dissertation
template).

The one tip that I didn't get from those pages, exactly, was that I set a
DissFont and based all styles on that, but mostly kept my styles
disconnected from each other, so that I could change the font very easily
without worrying about other settings cascading in the meantime.

Also, most of these are written for WinWord. In terms of menus, etc, yours
on the Mac are most like WinWord 2000. They made significant menu changes
in Word 2002/2003, so don't let that confuse you.

DM


***Styles & Templates***

http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/styles/TipsOnStyles.html

http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Formatting/UsingOLView.htm

http://officeupdate.microsoft.com/legal/Styles.asp and a supplemented
version of the same article, http://www.addbalance.com/usersguide/index.htm

http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart1.htm

http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Formatting/WorkWithSections.htm

http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart2.htm

http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/UseBuiltInHeadingStyles.html

http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Formatting/NonPrintChars.htm

http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Formatting/FootnoteOnDiffPage.htm

How to create numbered headings or outline numbering in your Word
document
<URL: http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html>


***Advice from MVP Suzanne Barnhill on managing Long Documents, especially
for speed:

"You will need, above all else, plenty of RAM (and of course plenty of free
HD space). The usual suggestions for dealing with long, complex documents
are:"

1. Use styles conscientiously. Keeping track of style tags imposes less load
on Word than keeping track of an infinitude of direct formatting (this
reduces file size as well).

2. Avoid long tables, especially single-row tables. If you must have long
tables, find ways to split them: for example, let subheads be in text
paragraphs outside the table.

3. Link graphics as much as possible and don't display them except when
absolutely necessary. On the View tab of Tools | Options, check the box for
"Picture placeholders" and clear the box for "Drawings." This will suppress
the display of all graphics.

4. Work in Normal view as much as possible; turn off background repagination
if you can bear it (Tools | Options | General), but note that it will be
turned on again automatically if you shift to Print Layout view.

5. Many experts will advise you to avoid section breaks. As long as these
are used for good reason (beginning of a chapter with "Different first
page," change in page orientation or number of columns), they should be
acceptable, but do avoid manual page breaks wherever possible. And you can
keep running heads simple by using StyleRef fields.

If you're doing all the above already, consider that a document that hangs
Word repeatedly may be corrupt or verging on corruption. See
http://www.word.mvps.org/FAQs/AppErrors/CorruptDoc.htm"


***Master Documents***

Why Master Documents corrupt
http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/WhyMasterDocsCorrupt.htm

How to recover a Master Document
http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/RecoverMasterDocs.htm

http://www.addbalance.com/word/masterdocuments.htm

General advice from the experts is that putting all chapters (if you have
chapters) in one document as different sections (not always necessary), and
using styles and headings properly, works fine for long documents.

 

[Dayo Mitchell]

Yes, you should set up a new thread. You might in fact want to move the
discussion to the newsgroup microsoft.public.word.formatting.longdocs, which
is supposed to be dedicated to things like that, though a lot of experts
follow both groups. But if you are searching for specific issues, you might
want to include that one. It is a little less busy than word.docmanagement.

Clarifying my own words, for fear of encouraging bad habits (in Julia or
anyone).

If using Google to search for previous threads, include both groups.

If posting a new thread, choose one newsgroup and stick with it, don't post
to multiple ones.

For more on posting good habits for these MS word newsgroups, see:
http://word.mvps.org/FindHelp/index.htm

DM

 

[Jean-Guy Marcil]

Bonjour,

Dans son message, < Julia in Wisconsin > écrivait :
In this message, < Julia in Wisconsin > wrote:

|||| then suddenly the footer
|||| fields for the first section have been changed without my wanting
|||| it--they ALL say "roman."
||||
|||
||| Have you removed "same as previous" from the footer? It's one of the
||| buttons on the Header&Footer toolbar.
||
|| Thanks for the advice, folks! I was unclicking "continue from
|| previous section" in the menu for page numbering, but I hadn't
|| unclicked the "same as previous" button (which has a cryptic graphic,
|| if you ask me!! .

Actually you do not need to unclick "Same as previous" if all you want is a
different numbering format for the page numbers. If everything else is the
same (Font, size, position, other text, etc..) then you can keep "Same as
previous." This is a popular misconception that you need to uncheck it to
change the page numbering.

Try the following:

Create a document.
Create 3 sections, each with two pages.
Display the header/footer for the first section.
From the header/footer toolbar, click on the opened book to get to page
formatting.
Select the first section as having a different first page header/footer.
Go back to the footer.
Go to the main footer in the first section (skip the first page footer).
Click on the White page with the # on the header/footer toolbar.
You should get a page number field in the footer displaying "2".
Now click on the hand pointing to the white page with a # on the
header/footer toolbar to get to the page number formatting dialog.
Set it to start at 0 from the "Start from" option.
Click OK.
It looks like the page number is gone, but it is because Word takes you back
the first page footer.
Go back to the main footer and you will see that the "2" from before is now
a "1".
Go to the footer for section 2.
Notice that it should display "2" as a page number because this section does
not have a "first page different" footer and is by default set to "Same as
previous" with also the default numbering continuing from the previous
section (section 1 = page 0, page 1, so section 2 starts at page 2, the
following number).
Again, click on the hand pointing to the white page with a # on the
header/footer toolbar to get to the page number formatting dialog.
Set the numbers to start from 1 and to be displayed as lower case roman
numerals.
The "2" should now have changed to "i".
Go to the footer for section 3.
You should see "3", again, because this section does not have a "first page
different" footer and is by default set to "Same as previous" with also the
default numbering continuing from the previous section (section 1 = page 0,
page 1, section 2 was set to start at 1, so section 2 first page is 1 (i),
page 2 is 2 (ii), so the following section (section 3) starts at 3, the
following number from section 2).
Again, click on the hand pointing to the white page with a # on the
header/footer toolbar to get to the page number formatting dialog.
Just for the heck of it, get this section to start at 10.
Notice that all sections are set to "Same as previous."
Close the header/footer toolbar to get back to the main document.
Now you have a document with the following page numbers:
Page 1 None
Page 2
Page 3 i
Page 4 ii
Page 5 10
Page 6 11

And all sections are set to be "Same as previous."

So, if Julia was having trouble with the numbering , it was not because she
had forgotten to uncheck "Same as previous"... Something else was going on.
Of course, removing "Same as pervious" will force the footer to be different
if you make changes. But I would not automatically change the "Same as
previous" setting only because I want to restart the numbering or change the
number formatting (I never do!), it is not actually a good idea. Here is
why: If the only difference is the page number format, and, let's say you
have text in all footers that you want to be on all pages, but you have
unchecked "Same as previous" to achieve that numbering goal. Later, you
notice a mistake in that footer text, now you want to change that text, you
have to manually go to all sections and change the text... If you have 8
sections, it is a real pain... Also, I suspect that every time you uncheck
"Same as previous" you force Word to use up more memory to keep track of all
those individual headers or footers. Whereas, the page numbering format is a
section thing anyway, it has to remember that setting in all cases (Same as
previous or not). Why put more strain on Word than necessary, especially
when dealing with memory intensive documents...

Just my 2¢!


--
Salut!
_______________________________________
Jean-Guy Marcil - Word MVP
(e-mail address removed)
Word MVP site: http://www.word.mvps.org

 

[Dayo Mitchell]

Hi Jean-Guy,

I didn't believe you at first, but since I am frantically avoiding my own
dissertation, I tested it out. Thanks so much, I'm not sure I ever realized
that before. However, next time you want to dispel the myth, I think you
should say something like:

Actually, changing page numbering only doesn't require unlinking sections.
View Headers and Footers, then put your cursor in a section. Click the
Format Page Number icon on the H/F toolbar. The changes you make in that
dialog will only apply to the current section, where your cursor is.

Much shorter. <g>

Interestingly, doing it that way does not change the field codes for the
{PAGE} field. (so who knows where Word keeps track of that information...the
magical ¶ I guess) So since Julia was actually typing in the format
switches, the advice was correct for her. Just on the wrong track.

I suspect you're right about minimizing unlinked sections and memory load,
I'll have to keep that in mind.

Though, to be honest, this kinda strikes me as a bug, if a useful one.
Shouldn't the Format Page Number dialog have the same sort of Apply To
choices (all, section, point forward) as the rest of the dialogs?

Dayo

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

To add to the links Dayo posted, see this one:
http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting/NumberingFrontMatter.htm

 

[Jean-Guy Marcil]

Bonjour,

Dans son message, < Dayo Mitchell > écrivait :
In this message, < Dayo Mitchell > wrote:

|| Hi Jean-Guy,
||
|| I didn't believe you at first, but since I am frantically avoiding my own
|| dissertation, I tested it out. Thanks so much, I'm not sure I ever
realized
|| that before. However, next time you want to dispel the myth, I think you
|| should say something like:
||
|| Actually, changing page numbering only doesn't require unlinking
sections.
|| View Headers and Footers, then put your cursor in a section. Click the
|| Format Page Number icon on the H/F toolbar. The changes you make in that
|| dialog will only apply to the current section, where your cursor is.
||
|| Much shorter. <g>

Yes, but lots of people do not believe it... so I thought it would be good
to establish a testing procedure to make sure that we are all talking about
the same thing.

||
|| Interestingly, doing it that way does not change the field codes for the
|| {PAGE} field. (so who knows where Word keeps track of that
information...the
|| magical ¶ I guess) So since Julia was actually typing in the format

More like the section break itself I suspect.

|| switches, the advice was correct for her. Just on the wrong track.

You are right, since she was on that track, she needed to unlink. But she
did not need to fiddle with field codes...

||
|| I suspect you're right about minimizing unlinked sections and memory
load,
|| I'll have to keep that in mind.
||
|| Though, to be honest, this kinda strikes me as a bug, if a useful one.
|| Shouldn't the Format Page Number dialog have the same sort of Apply To
|| choices (all, section, point forward) as the rest of the dialogs?

Not at all, this is by design. I know I tend to digress and annoy readers
with lots of verbose comments, like this one! That was why I wrote the
following example:

<q>
Here is
||| why: If the only difference is the page number format, and, let's say
you
||| have text in all footers that you want to be on all pages, but you have
||| unchecked "Same as previous" to achieve that numbering goal. Later, you
||| notice a mistake in that footer text, now you want to change that text,
you
||| have to manually go to all sections and change the text... If you have 8
||| sections, it is a real pain...
<\q>

Very often you have absolutely identical footers, except for the number
format.

Thanks for reminding me to keep things short!

--
Salut!
_______________________________________
Jean-Guy Marcil - Word MVP
(e-mail address removed)
Word MVP site: http://www.word.mvps.org

 

[Dayo Mitchell]

||
|| Though, to be honest, this kinda strikes me as a bug, if a useful one.
|| Shouldn't the Format Page Number dialog have the same sort of Apply To
|| choices (all, section, point forward) as the rest of the dialogs?

Not at all, this is by design. I know I tend to digress and annoy readers
with lots of verbose comments, like this one! That was why I wrote the
following example:

It's not so much about "annoy", it's just that people might not take the
trouble to follow you through the example, and give up before they even got
to the end and the excellent rationale for it. (being ridiculously lazy
myself, I'm very alert to such possibilities

<q>
Here is
||| why: If the only difference is the page number format, and, let's say
you
||| have text in all footers that you want to be on all pages, but you have
||| unchecked "Same as previous" to achieve that numbering goal. Later, you
||| notice a mistake in that footer text, now you want to change that text,
you
||| have to manually go to all sections and change the text... If you have 8
||| sections, it is a real pain...
<\q>

Very often you have absolutely identical footers, except for the number
format.

I totally agree, but Word isn't usually that conveniently designed to mesh
with what most people logically and frequently want, it seems to me....
(admittedly, that view is based quite largely on the endnote continuation
separator

Although, also, in a conventional doc with frontmatter you would only need
to unlink section 2 from 1, and 2-8 would all still be linked, minimizing
the manual changes. (and suddenly the absence of an Unlink All Section
commands makes more sense, that could do a lot of damage).

Nevertheless, totally pleased to have a new tip. Thanks much.
Dayo

 

[Dayo Mitchell]

Oh, I already gave her that one in the Mac group the day before. But
actually, that one is missing from my general set of longdoc links, thanks
for the reminder, added now.

Her real difficulties are about numbering tables and figures in a chapter
zero, for the introduction...I've given her Shauna's page and suggested she
experiment with it, and post specific questions to the numbering ng.

Dayo