PAGEREF \p Switch in DE, SV, SK, and PL

[Bear]

Our translation vendor is reporting "errors" with our PAGEREF fields that use
the \p switch to create the result "above," "below," or "on page" according
to where the target is in relation to the x-ref containing the field.

When writing in Word 2003 in DE, does this field (particularly the "on page"
option) evaluate and update correctly? (According to our vendor, correct is
"auf Seite" where Word delivers just "Seite.")

We also see similar problems in SV, SK, and PL.

Does anyone have any experience with this situation? Do authorw in these
languages see any "errors" when using this field?

Bear

 

[Stefan Blom]

Assuming that the text containing the PAGEREF field has the correct language
formatting, the field should display correctly. This applies to "above" and
"below."

As far as I know, there is no way to insert the word "page" automatically
with a cross-reference (if that's what you are asking); you will have to
type it in.

 

[Bear]

Stefan:

No, actually you can. In Word 2000 terms:

1. Click Insert > Cross-reference.
2. Select the reference type (say, Figure).
3. Select the item (figure) whose page you want to x-ref.
4. From the Insert Reference To list, select Page Number.
5. Check the Include Above/Below check box.

The result is: { PAGEREF _Ref999999999 \p }

When the figure is on the same page as the x-ref, the field result is
"above" or "below." When the figure is on a different page, the field result
is "on page 99."

Please try it and see if the languages you are familiar with translate
correctly.

Bear

 

[Stefan Blom]

As I wrote, I am aware that you can have Word insert "above" or "below" in
the language applied to the cross-reference. I haven't seen any problems
with this feature.

But you were referring to "auf Seite" which I'm assuming means "on page"? I
don't see a way to have Word insert that.

 

[Bear]

Stefan:

Please just try it. The PAGEREF field with \p switch can have three results:
above, below, or on page 99. Honest.

It works fine in English. In Spanish it evaluates to:

See Figure 1 más adelante.
See Figure 1 más atrás.
See Figure 1 en la página 6.

Bear

 

[Stefan Blom]

As I wrote, I am aware that you can have Word insert "above" or "below" in
the language applied to the cross-reference. I haven't seen any problems
with this feature.

But you were referring to "auf Seite" which I'm assuming means "on page"?
I
don't see a way to have Word insert that.

That is, Word inserts only the actual page number, and you will have to
insert text such as "page" or "on page."

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP

 

[Stefan Blom]

Under which circumstances does the field evaluate to "on page X"? Logically,
the referenced item is located either above or below the reference.

Note that I no longer have access to Word 2000; I'm guessing this behavior
could be specific to that version.

 

[Bear]

Stefan:

It evaluates to "on page 99" when the target is on a different page than the
x-ref. Please try it by editing a PAGEREF field in ANY version of Word.

Bear

 

[Lene Fredborg]

I have tested the { PAGEREF \p } field in Word 2003 and Word 2007. I can
confirm that I see the same result for German (DE) as you describe. My
results for English, German and Danish:

{ PAGEREF \p } field on another page than the referenced item inserts:
“on page X†(English), “Seite X†(German), “på side X†(Danish)

{ PAGEREF \p } field on same page as the referenced item and above the item
inserts:
“below†(English), “unten†(German), “nedenfor†(Danish)

{ PAGEREF \p } field on same page as the referenced item and below the item
inserts “aboveâ€
“above†(English), “oben†(German), “ovenfor†(Danish)

--
Regards
Lene Fredborg - Microsoft MVP (Word)
DocTools - Denmark
www.thedoctools.com
Document automation - add-ins, macros and templates for Microsoft Word

 

[Peter Jamieson]

In Word 2003 I get
DE: Seite (not "auf Seite")
SV: på sidan
SK: na stronie
PL: na strane

A possible solution might be to use a nested field along the lines of
{ IF "{ PAGEREF bookmarkname \p }" = "Seite*" "auf Seite { PAGEREF
bookmarkname }" }

However, if you need to alter the "above" and "below" texts as well,
things would get more complicated.

There are ways you could probably make this approach easier to use,
e.g. on page 1 put

{ SET onpage "Seite" }{ SET ouronpage "auf Seite " }

substituting the appropriate expressions from the language you are using
in that document.

then use

{ IF "{ PAGEREF bookmarkname \p }" = "{ onpage }*" "{ ouronpage }{
PAGEREF bookmarkname }" }

Peter Jamieson

http://tips.pjmsn.me.uk

 

[Stefan Blom]

Now I have seen it too... finally. :-(

 

[Bear]

Lene:

Thanks so much for your input. The larger question then becomes: would you
consider the German "correct?" or is this a field usage I should avoid for
multilingual works?

The suggestions Peter made are great, but increase the level of complexity
of the field use, which I'm hesitant to do at this point. (Both my authors
and my translation vendor are concerned).

My best solution for the time being is to leave the field as-is in our
English masters, then pre-process a copy for translation purposes where the
field is reverted to NOT having the \p switch, and the result text "above"
"below" and "on page" is made dead text.

So the x-refs evaluate and update in the English, then get frozen for
translation, except for the page numbers.

Thanks again.

Bear

 

[Bear]

Peter:

Thanks for your good ideas. More complex than I'd like for now, but rest
assurred they are now in my Swipe file. Please see my reply to Lene as well.
If you'd like to weigh in on the issue of whether or not the GE result of the
field is "correct" or whether the \p switch is useable at all for
multilingual products, please do so!

Bear

 

[Lene Fredborg]

Actually, I have never used the \p switch with PAGEREF fields myself. But I
have made tons of PAGEREF fields without the \p switch in documents - incl.
huge amounts of documents that were to be translated into one or more other
languages.

My German is quite “rusty†but I also think “auf†should be included.

I think I would prefer not using the \p switch in multilingual works.
Peter’s suggestions are interesting but I would be afraid that users could
too easily destroy the more complex field constructions. The solution you
suggest could be problematic or at least cause inconsistent results. In
running text, pages will break in different places in different language
versions. For example, the German version of a text will, in general, be
longer than the English version. This could result in “unten†or “oben†being
used in situations where the cross-referenced item was no longer found on the
same page - or “auf Seite†could end on the same page as the cross-referenced
item. “Unten†and “oben†would not be incorrect (as Stefan said - it is still
below or above). However, the use of “auf Seiteâ€, “unten†and “oben†would
not be consistent anymore.

If you prefer to use the \p switch in the English version, you could use a
macro to remove the switch and insert the appropriate string in front of the
field.

--
Regards
Lene Fredborg - Microsoft MVP (Word)
DocTools - Denmark
www.thedoctools.com
Document automation - add-ins, macros and templates for Microsoft Word

 

[Peter Jamieson]

Sorry, my German was never that strong, and I know practically nothing
about the other three languages.

Peter Jamieson

http://tips.pjmsn.me.uk

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Don't feel bad, Stefan. It is only recently that I also learned this, by
reading about it in these NGs. I never dreamed the switch would do anything
beyond "above" and "below," as, like you, I don't interpret those words as
applying strictly to the current page.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

 

[Stefan Blom]

Indeed, an item on a previous page is obviously still "above" and an item on
a following page is "below." If you wanted to reference the page number, you
wouldn't use the "Above/below" option in the first place...

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Well, if you wanted to use a page number, but only if the reference was not
on the same page (in which case I might argue that the Xref is unneeded
anyway; a plain-text "above" or "below" would probably do), then I guess
this format would fill the bill, but not if it's going to be as
problematical as it seems to be.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org