Please add Microsoft feedback to your bookmarks bar

[mack]

Hi,
Please add the microsoft feedback to your bookmarks bar.

http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp

I have done so, and I am USING it, every time I have to ask a volunteer
from this group for help. A copy of the question goes to the Microsoft
feedback team. Why?

1. I LIKE volunteers, and I DON'T LIKE asking them to solve problems
that they shouldn't have to-even though, as they have been quick to
point out, they are perfectly happy to volunteer. That's not the
point-the point is that a Word team is the only thing that can fix
problems in the long term.

2. HOW is anyone at Microsoft going to know about all these often quite
obscure, and hard-to-pin-down problems if no-one bothers to tell them?

3. BEFORE you say 'it's a good idea, but it's really too much hassle to
actually add anything to my bookmarks bar, and I don't really know how
to do that, and I've got 5 days work ahead of me trying to fix all the
problems that I'm going to have with Word', ask yourselves how long
Word has been around, how hopeless the help function is, and how long
it takes to get glitches fixed from one version to the the next.

I bet there are simple little problems that have been kicking around
for YEARS, simply because not enough folks have put feedback in, after
some long-suffering volunteer has spent hours fixing up their document.
I know myself, once someone from this group solves a problem for me, I
naturally think 'problem solved'-but unfortunately it's NOT. The only
way to fix WORD is to TELL MICROSOFT. PLEASE join the fun and send them
some FEEDBACK!

 

[JE McGimpsey]

Hi,
Please add the microsoft feedback to your bookmarks bar.

http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp

I have done so, and I am USING it, every time I have to ask a volunteer
from this group for help. A copy of the question goes to the Microsoft
feedback team. Why?

Note that you don't have to add anything to your bookmarks bar.

Instead, you can simply choose the Help/Feedback on <app> menu item from
any Office v.X or 2004 app. The same URI is brought up in your default
browser.

 

[mack]

Hi,
Thanks JE. I will use it. If everyone who has problems with Word
does likewise, we'll have a PERFECT program in NO TIME FLAT!

 

[Klaus Linke]

Hi,
Thanks JE. I will use it. If everyone who has problems with Word
does likewise, we'll have a PERFECT program in NO TIME FLAT!

I hate to be a spoilsport... but that assumes that someone reads and classifies
the feedback, someone makes a statistical analysis on problems that crop up
often enough to warrant attention, someone else decides that fixing that
particular problem will make Microsoft sell more copies of Word, another person
decides that the additionally sold copies create more income than fixing the
issue will create expenses, that finally somebody makes the fix, and that it
makes it into the next version (or more likely, the version two or three
versions down the road).

I've used a feedback interface on the web a few years and later heard that it
was a black hole (nobody looked at the feedback), so I'm not even too sure about
the very first step.

:-/ Klaus

 

[Elliott Roper]

I hate to be a spoilsport... but that assumes that someone reads and
classifies
the feedback, someone makes a statistical analysis on problems that crop up
often enough to warrant attention, someone else decides that fixing that
particular problem will make Microsoft sell more copies of Word, another
person
decides that the additionally sold copies create more income than fixing the
issue will create expenses, that finally somebody makes the fix, and that it
makes it into the next version (or more likely, the version two or three
versions down the road).

I've used a feedback interface on the web a few years and later heard that it
was a black hole (nobody looked at the feedback), so I'm not even too sure
about
the very first step.

You and mack appear to be at opposite ends of the cynicism scale.
We have been assured more than once by MVPs that should know, that
feedback *is* considered.
For backup, it is probably worth whingeing on here too. At least one
softie quite openly takes part on this group, and once a year the MVPs
are rounded up and slammed through the Seattle sheep dip.
I was once contacted by MS developers for a better description of some
feedback I sent in the early days of v.X (bad spacing on Postscript
fonts) and it did get fixed.
Experience has shown, however that features sometimes take precedence
over bugs, and that putting in as many bugs as you take out keeps the
update cycle hummin' along nicely.
May I join you up the cynical end Klaus?

 

[Beth Rosengard]

Hi Klaus,

We've been assured that every message sent via Send Feedback is at least
read and quantified. We've also been told that as far as the MacBU is
concerned (can't speak for Windows stuff), the relevant messages are
eventually forwarded to the proper recipient. What happens next is much as
you describe it, but at least the first couple of steps get taken; what
follows next depends on lots of factors.

It's also true that MacBu folks drop into this newsgroup from time to time
and take note of current issues (and the MVPs often pass posts along as
well). So reporting things to the MacWord newsgroup *and* using Send
Feedback is optimum.

And it is definitely the case that the squeaky wheel is more likely to get
the grease: It means a lot more if many different people ask for a feature
or bug fix than just a few.

--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***

Beth Rosengard
Mac MVP

Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/index.htm>
Entourage Help Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org>

 

[Klaus Linke]

You and mack appear to be at opposite ends of

the cynicism scale.
[...]
May I join you up the cynical end Klaus?

Hi Eliot,

Since I just read Ritika Pathak's post, I'm moving towards the other end right
now...
Maybe we'll meet half-way?

Thanks, Ritika!
Klaus

 

[msnews.microsoft.com]

Hi Klaus:

No, it's not a "black hole" Every single item is read by a human
being. I was talking to Jamie Sloan a couple of weeks back: he is one of
the people who gets to decide what gets fixed as a result of the feedback.

But the rest of what you say is quite correct: we should read the
instructions before using the link One thing that makes a big
difference is including the official Microsoft name for the product we are
complaining about in the SUBJECT. That enables the AutoBot to steer the
feedback item directly to the team most likely to understand it. If we do
not do that, it may bounce around a few times before someone figures out
what it's about.

But you also mention a very valid point: Word Mac is a porting of PC Word.
If we want to change any major function, the change must be made in PC Word.
Which means it will take about six years for that particular change to flow
on to Mac Word.

Cheers

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Beth Rosengard]

I don't think that's entirely true anymore, John. It depends on the major
feature, especially considering that MacWord now has its *own* major
features that don't exist in WinWord ­ like Project Center.

--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***

Beth Rosengard
Mac MVP

Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/index.htm>
Entourage Help Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org>

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Mac]]

Hi Beth:

Yeah, it's true

Project Centre looks very impressive, and it adds functionality the PC lot
would die for, but under the skin it's pretty much a simple wizard (a simple
add-in such as one could create in VBA if you had the time).

Once you start wanting changes to the internal workings of Word, your first
task is to persuade 350 million users of PC Word to want it... Once
Microsoft starts working out "what will this cost, and how long will it
take?" they just add "us" to the overall Word user base. They won't tell us
how many copies of Mac Word 2004 are out there, but I'm picking it's around
750,000.

So from Microsoft's point of view, the sum becomes:

"We have $n to spend on the next release. We have 350,750,000 users.
750,000 of them (0.21382751247327156094084105488239 per cent) want a feature
that will cost $x. The other 99.786172487526728439059158945118 per cent of
our users won't be able to use this feature."

As you can see, we only have two available strategies. One is to tell all
of our friends how much better Macs are, but to explain to all of our Mac
using friends that it is essential to have a copy of Microsoft Office on
each Mac. The other is to tell Microsoft that whatever feature we want is
just about to be introduced into Open Office

Cheers

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Beth Rosengard]

Hi John,

Well, if you're going to demote every feature I think is major, then of
course you'll win the argument .

Cheers,

Beth

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Mac]]

Yeah, well I wasn't actually "trying" to win any arguments

The relativities are something like this...

* There's about 30 million lines of code (some say 50 million, depends how
you count it...) in Microsoft Office.

* Some have suggested that to fix Bullets and Numbering in Word to make it
work the way we would all like it to work would require the replacement of
more than 50,000 lines of code. That's what *I* mean by a "major" feature.

* I would be surprised if there were more than a thousand lines of code in
the whole of Project Centre. I really have no idea, it depends how they did
it. But if you are a professional software architect who does a bit of
planning, you can make a very large difference with a thousand lines of
code. Mac BU is pretty good at squeezing maximum bang out of their bucks,
so I would expect the internal design of Project Centre is fairly lean and
mean

I guess the bottom line is "keep hammering the wish line or feedback link."
My experience these past ten years has been that they do listen, the
feedback does go to real human beings, and they will eventually do
"something" about each request.

Those of us who love political intrigue remain fascinated by Microsoft.
Like any other large corporation, it's a seething mass of fiefdoms, some of
which are very large and have terrifying internal pull. Microsoft Office is
the biggest and baddest there is. Office gets whatever it wants, and
everyone else gets to wait Unkind people might even suggest that one of
the reasons Windows Longhorn is running late is that they had to fix Office
2002. They will assure me that it isn't true, but that won't stop me
suggesting it Now that Longhorn finally has the green light, I suggest
that anyone with a barrow to push in Microsoft is lining up on the Longhorn
start line. The impending arrival of Longhorn is being used internally to
justify many major application re-writes that would otherwise stay in the
"too expensive" basket forever.

I, for example, am gleefully attempting to push the barrow that "If you have
to bring Word to Longhorn, you will need to ensure that it can handle
documents well above the current 2GB limit. Of course that will mean
replacing all those messy 16-bit and 32-bit pointers. Which means you will
have to rewrite the bullets, numbering and styles engines. Which means you
might as well FIX them while you are doing that. Since it would be
uneconomical to have to maintain two code bases, you might as well port the
64-bit version to the Mac..." So that's how I am trying to get bullets and
numbering fixed in Mac Word.

All support for this campaign warmly accepted

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Paul Berkowitz]

Yeah, well I wasn't actually "trying" to win any arguments

The relativities are something like this...

* There's about 30 million lines of code (some say 50 million, depends how
you count it...) in Microsoft Office.

* Some have suggested that to fix Bullets and Numbering in Word to make it
work the way we would all like it to work would require the replacement of
more than 50,000 lines of code. That's what *I* mean by a "major" feature.

* I would be surprised if there were more than a thousand lines of code in
the whole of Project Centre. I really have no idea, it depends how they did
it. But if you are a professional software architect who does a bit of
planning, you can make a very large difference with a thousand lines of
code. Mac BU is pretty good at squeezing maximum bang out of their bucks,
so I would expect the internal design of Project Centre is fairly lean and
mean

Whoa! Maybe you're talking about the "Project Gallery", John? Beth is
talking about the Project _Center_ - projects. That's _really_, _really_
major. Have you actually investigated projects in Office 2004? (Really in
Entourage 2004). Are you sure?

I hardly know where to begin. Maybe start by Help/Discovering Microsoft
Office/Managing Project Information. Then create a project on a server and
share it with another person - everything: contacts, events, tasks,
clippings, email, notes, etc. Start using the Scrapbook for clippings and
add them to the project. Then go to Tools/Project Palette in Word and Excel
and start adding and accessing files to/from the project in those apps. Then
get the eBook "Take Control of Entourage 2004" at
http://www.tidbits.com/takecontrol/entourage-2004.html and find all the
things you missed.

You'd be "surprised if there were a thousand lines of code in Project
Center"? You must be crazy! Actually, I think that the project Center - the
biggest single thing in Office 2004 - yes BIGGER than your vaunted Unicode
in Word - - just passed you by, and you're actually talking about the
unfortunately-named "Project Gallery" - right? (Unfortunately named "Project
Gallery" back in Office v. X so now it's in fact very easy to get confused
between the two very different features. Project Gallery is piddling,
agreed. Project Center is HUGE.) Go check it out when you have a couple days
to spare, John.

--
Paul Berkowitz
MVP MacOffice
Entourage FAQ Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/faq/index.html>
AppleScripts for Entourage: <http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/>

Please "Reply To Newsgroup" to reply to this message. Emails will be
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PLEASE always state which version of Microsoft Office you are using -
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otherwise.

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Mac]]

Hi Paul:

No, I was talking about Project Centre, not the unfortunate Project Gallery.
I think that Project Gallery is "simply" unfortunate, by any name

Project Centre is a major value-add, no question about it. It has a lot of
the same concepts as Sharepoint, or Lotus Team Room, or even Exchange
Server. I guess I was slightly less blown away by Project Centre than some
people because I have been working with very similar features for a few
years now and I sort of take for granted that all computers have them.

But when I look at Project Centre, and think about how I might go about
implementing it, I can't see all that many lines of code in it. Of course,
there certainly would be if the basic features were not already built in to
the Office suite. But since they are, then adding a shell to pull their
strings does not seem to me to contain all that much coding.

For example: I can write a one-line macro in Word that cures one of the
most irritating design bug in Word. Of course, to run it requires the other
10 million or so lines of code that make up Word. Which in turn requires
most of the other 20-million-odd lines of code that make up Office. So
would you count that as "one" line of code, ten million, or 30 million? I
would count it as "one".

To me, this is the age-old debate about Value vs Effort, which is the core
driver of all software development. Now, maybe I missed the mark by an
order of magnitude with Project centre. Maybe I picked a poor example. All
I was trying to say was "When you begin to want major changes in the core
functionality of Word, you have to make the PC side want it too, or it's not
going to happen."

Cheers

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[JE McGimpsey]

You'd be "surprised if there were a thousand lines of code in Project
Center"? You must be crazy! Actually, I think that the project Center - the
biggest single thing in Office 2004 - yes BIGGER than your vaunted Unicode
in Word - - just passed you by, and you're actually talking about the
unfortunately-named "Project Gallery" - right?

I think John was talking about Project Center. He may be off with the
number of lines of code, but probably not by a huge margin. Of course it
depends on how you measure "lines of code", too. The interface itself is
fairly complex, but probably doesn't require huge amounts of code to
implement. Getting the hooks into the apps certainly takes a bit. But
most of Project Center is performing database functions, most of which
already existed in Entourage. The remainder, if MacBU did it right,
should be pretty lean.

That doesn't detract from the feature - I agree that it's a great
addition to Office and I use it all the time.

A thousand lines seems OK to me. I may have guessed a little higher. If
you told me that Project Center itself was 20,000 lines of code, I'd be
surprised, but not shocked. If you said it was 100,000, I'd be very
surprised.