Problem with master pages, "different first page" option

[lostcities]

I'm using Word in Office 2008 for the Mac.

I've set up master pages for my document, with the "different first page"
option so I can put a narrow title banner at the top of pages 2+, and a wider
one on page 1.

That's fine. But as soon as I went to the "different first page" option, it
became impossible to have identical static guides on all pages. I am using a
6 col grid, not that I have 6 cols of text but because it provides a flexible
framework for aligning text and images. So I have 12 guides on the page, and
whatever guide I place on page one will disappear from the master pages for
pp. 2+. If I replace a missing one on pp. 2+, then it disappears from page 1.
I want to be able to make differences between Master Page 1 and the other
Master Pages, but this seems to be telling me that they cannot share any
common features!

Oh how I miss Pagemaker. I bought and tried InDesign but it is just too much
for what I am doing, and way too complicated.

Is this just how Word works or am I missing something? There was no help in
the help!

 

[John McGhie]

You haven't told us which "View" you are working in.

But if you are using Master Pages, then you must be in Publishing Layout
View, which is a very peculiar use of running headers, and not at all "the
way Word works". It's an orphaned feature of Mac Word: don't get too
excited with it, because the documents it creates don't work at all well on
PC Word.

For what you are doing, I think you should investigate Apple Pages. You are
trying to do desktop publishing, and Word will fight you all the way doing
that, because it is a word-processor, and they are designed to prevent page
layout

I don't know why you say "there is nothing in the Help" about this, because
I see about 20 topics. You are looking in the WORD help? The Apple Help
search has a bad habit of steering you into the Apple help, not the Word
help. And of course there is nothing there about Word's Publishing Layout
View.

See "Use master pages to format a document" and "Create a newsletter in
publishing layout view" and "Design a professional brochure in Word 2008"

Hope this helps

I'm using Word in Office 2008 for the Mac.

I've set up master pages for my document, with the "different first page"
option so I can put a narrow title banner at the top of pages 2+, and a wider
one on page 1.

That's fine. But as soon as I went to the "different first page" option, it
became impossible to have identical static guides on all pages. I am using a
6 col grid, not that I have 6 cols of text but because it provides a flexible
framework for aligning text and images. So I have 12 guides on the page, and
whatever guide I place on page one will disappear from the master pages for
pp. 2+. If I replace a missing one on pp. 2+, then it disappears from page 1.
I want to be able to make differences between Master Page 1 and the other
Master Pages, but this seems to be telling me that they cannot share any
common features!

Oh how I miss Pagemaker. I bought and tried InDesign but it is just too much
for what I am doing, and way too complicated.

Is this just how Word works or am I missing something? There was no help in
the help!

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[lostcities]

John,

Thanks for your response and suggestions. I am using Publishing Layout View,
as the help says "Static guides are available only in publishing layout
view."

A Grid is visible in both Print Layout and Publishing Layout Views, but Word
allows only grids that are like graph paper, with every vertical or
horizontal line the same distance from every other vertical or horizontal
line. What I am trying to do is set up a "grid" in a typographical sense, not
a graph-paper sense, where (in this case) the grid shows 6 columns for text
each the same width and each separated from the one next to it by a gutter.
So the columns are one width and the gutters are a different, narrower,
width.

For this reason I am using static guides instead of the grid feature, and
putting them on the master pages. But pages 2+ have at the top a colored
rectangle the width of the page with the title and date of the publication
upon it; that is what I meant by running head (not a header per se, but a
repeating graphic feature). The first page shows this information in a
different way. Hence the need for a different first page, in the master page
options.

One workaround would be to have the first page in a separate document. My
end product will be a pdf for printing, and if I have 2 pdfs I have to merge
them. Just an extra complication. Or I can decide the static guides are more
important than the ease and consistency of having the page-top banners
automatically reproduced identically, leave them out, go back to having all
the master pages identical, and then the static guides will be okay. It just
didn't seem like too much to ask, to have the master pages/different first
page option work in the way it seems to be supposed to.

And I am consulting Word Help. It does mention both guides and master pages,
but there is nothing I can find about this problem of not being able to have
the same static guides on all Master Pages after having selected "Different
first page" in the master pages options.

I take your point about Word and DTP. Just having a "Publishing Layout View"
does not a layout program make, that is for sure. I suppose that is why
Microsoft makes Publisher, but Publisher is PC only.

Following your recommendation that I consider using Apple's Pages, I took a
look at it and have downloaded a free 30-day trial. It too seems to be
primarily a word-processing application; for example, of the 12+ video
tutorials Appla offers on Pages, none deal with page layout. A quick search
of the Apple forum on Pages 09 found people having some problems with it as a
dtp program, but I will try it out for myself.

Maybe with this additional information about the static guides problem, a
solution may be offered. Most likely you are right and I am trying to drive a
nail with a rock (wrong tool for the job).

Back to the drawing board.

 

[lostcities]

John, Thanks for the response and suggestions.

I am working in Pub Layout view, the only view in which static guides are
visible.

Grids are offered by Word, and are visible in both Print and Pub Layout
Views, but grids in Word are like graph paper: each vertical line is the same
distance from the next. What I want is a grid in the typographic sense, in
this case a page with 6 columns each the same width and each separated from
the next by a gutter much narrower than the columns. As a result I am using
the static guides.

Pages 2+ of this publication have a colored rectangle at the top bearing the
name of the pub and date. Not exactly a running head in the sense of
header/footer, more a recurring element on the page proper. Page 1 has a
different layout, hence the need for "different first page" option in the
master pages feature. And as soon as I chose that, it became impossible to
have the same static guides on page 1 and on pages 2+.

I do take your point about Word and DTP. A "Publishing Layout View": does
not a DTP program make. That's why Microsoft has Publisher, but that is a PC
only program. At your recommmendation I took a look at Apple's Pages, and
notice that of the 12+ video tutorials Apple offers not a one is about dtp,
all about documents. And people in the forums seem to have some problems with
using it for dtp. But I dl'd a 30-day free trial and will see how it works.

Maybe this additional information about what I am doing will help a solution
emerge. What I want the guides and master pages to do does not seem
unreasonable, but standard publishing type behavior from something that is
trying to wear a "DTP" hat.

 

[John McGhie]

Yeah, I know what you "want"

Your issue is that "Different First Page" is a Running Header/Footer
attribute, and the Master Pages in Publishing View ARE the running headers
for the section.

I suggest that you need to create two sections in that document. Each
section can have its own Master Page.

I would get the first section correct, then copy it and add your coloured
box to the second section, which will have its own master page.

Sorry: This feature is an after-thought, designed to be useful only at the
"School Project" level. You will soon run into many serious limitations if
you try to use it for "real work".

Cheers

John,

Thanks for your response and suggestions. I am using Publishing Layout View,
as the help says "Static guides are available only in publishing layout
view."

A Grid is visible in both Print Layout and Publishing Layout Views, but Word
allows only grids that are like graph paper, with every vertical or
horizontal line the same distance from every other vertical or horizontal
line. What I am trying to do is set up a "grid" in a typographical sense, not
a graph-paper sense, where (in this case) the grid shows 6 columns for text
each the same width and each separated from the one next to it by a gutter.
So the columns are one width and the gutters are a different, narrower,
width.

For this reason I am using static guides instead of the grid feature, and
putting them on the master pages. But pages 2+ have at the top a colored
rectangle the width of the page with the title and date of the publication
upon it; that is what I meant by running head (not a header per se, but a
repeating graphic feature). The first page shows this information in a
different way. Hence the need for a different first page, in the master page
options.

One workaround would be to have the first page in a separate document. My
end product will be a pdf for printing, and if I have 2 pdfs I have to merge
them. Just an extra complication. Or I can decide the static guides are more
important than the ease and consistency of having the page-top banners
automatically reproduced identically, leave them out, go back to having all
the master pages identical, and then the static guides will be okay. It just
didn't seem like too much to ask, to have the master pages/different first
page option work in the way it seems to be supposed to.

And I am consulting Word Help. It does mention both guides and master pages,
but there is nothing I can find about this problem of not being able to have
the same static guides on all Master Pages after having selected "Different
first page" in the master pages options.

I take your point about Word and DTP. Just having a "Publishing Layout View"
does not a layout program make, that is for sure. I suppose that is why
Microsoft makes Publisher, but Publisher is PC only.

Following your recommendation that I consider using Apple's Pages, I took a
look at it and have downloaded a free 30-day trial. It too seems to be
primarily a word-processing application; for example, of the 12+ video
tutorials Appla offers on Pages, none deal with page layout. A quick search
of the Apple forum on Pages 09 found people having some problems with it as a
dtp program, but I will try it out for myself.

Maybe with this additional information about the static guides problem, a
solution may be offered. Most likely you are right and I am trying to drive a
nail with a rock (wrong tool for the job).

Back to the drawing board.

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Clive Huggan]

Pages has a word-processing component and a page layout component. You
select which one when you open up Pages.

Pages is far and away better than Microsoft Publisher. It has many of the
features of InDesign, but with some limitations that pros find limiting but
which for the everyday user do not pose problems. It is, like most Apple
products, extraordinarily easy to learn; within an hour I was fairly
competent in driving it. My wife, who did not have any previous experience
in page layout software, was pretty adept after about 4 hours (but producing
output before that). She now produces outstanding output in the minimum of
time. It's a lovely application, and the interface is "non-combative". It's
best to freely adapt the provided templates and/or borrow elements from more
than one template in creating your own.

The Pages user guide that comes with the application is very comprehensive.