Redefine Normal style

[AstroGuy]

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Intel

Years ago, several versions back, one could redefine the Normal style using the Redefine Style command. I usually invoked that using an icon on the toolbar, right next to the style box, pull-down menu. Very convenient!

That feature, however, was tweaked and so Redefine Style no longer worked for Normal, although it was still good for any other style. To use it, you simply change the properties of a paragraph with a certain style, click redefine, and all of them change.

I'm just touching base to see if anyone knows how to redefine the Normal style from an example of a changed paragraph--that is, bypassing the many steps involved in having to open up the Format-Style dialog box and wade through several nested menus to get to a paragraph redefinition box!

It's far more natural to do it the way it used to work!

 

[John McGhie]

The real answer to this is "It won't work and we should not try"

The reason they disabled it was to prevent the frequent problems that occur
if the Normal style gets changed (because it is used for so many things
through the whole application).

Instead, I use "Body Text" style wherever we used to use Normal, and thus
regain the ability to set the style by example.

Cheers

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Intel

Years ago, several versions back, one could redefine the Normal style using
the Redefine Style command. I usually invoked that using an icon on the
toolbar, right next to the style box, pull-down menu. Very convenient!

That feature, however, was tweaked and so Redefine Style no longer worked for
Normal, although it was still good for any other style. To use it, you simply
change the properties of a paragraph with a certain style, click redefine, and
all of them change.

I'm just touching base to see if anyone knows how to redefine the Normal style
from an example of a changed paragraph--that is, bypassing the many steps
involved in having to open up the Format-Style dialog box and wade through
several nested menus to get to a paragraph redefinition box!

It's far more natural to do it the way it used to work!

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

--

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[CyberTaz]

In total agreement with John's reply but as a suggestion to facilitate the
updating... It still works much the same way. The equivalent of what you're
referring to as Redefine Style is in the Formatting Palette.

Reformat the styled paragraph then point to the name of the Style in the
Styles section of the palette. Click the button at the right end of the
style name row & select "Update to match selection".

Also, if you reformat the styled paragraph then select the style from the
Styles List on the Formatting Toolbar you'll be prompted as to whether you
want to reapply the style or "Update the style to reflect recent changes".

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[dow]

Using "Body Text":

I can see a benefit of using a style other than Normal, as it is then
easily modified without unintended consequences.

A couple of questions:
1. I can't find any mention in 'Help' for Body Text: does Body Text
have any other qualities other than as an alternative style-name?
(i.e. any reason to use Body Text rather than just Text?)
2. Do you then make your consequent styles (such as Heading 1 etc)
based on Body Text or on Normal?

(I'm running Office 2008 on 10.4.11 PPC)

 

[John McGhie]

Both excellent questions

1) No. Body Text has no special qualities. The only reasons to use it are:
A) That's the style Documentation Professionals would use for that purpose,
and
B) It's built-in, so you do not have to create it.

If you use the built-in style names, you will have an easier job
re-purposing your text to the web, since most web editors expect the
standard style set and will format accordingly. Of course, you adjust the
styles to your formatting preferences.

Body Text begins life as a copy of the Normal style, with all its properties
based upon the Normal style. As you change each property, you break its
chain of inheritance to Normal (which is a good thing: otherwise any change
to Normal would change your Body Text).

2) I tend to Base Heading 1 on "No Style". It may take me a couple of
tries to achieve the effect I want in Body Text, and I do not want the
headings changing while I do that.

I tend to base Heading 2 on Heading 1, Heading 3 on Heading 2, etc down the
chain.

In professional documentation practice, "Inheritance" is a very powerful
tool in long document work. Each style can be set to inherit from another
style, and a set of styles can be set to form a "chain of inheritance".

In a blank default document, EVERY style is set to inherit from Normal
style. If you want to take control of your formatting, the first thing you
will do is break that chain at selected places. In my practice, almost
nothing should be based on Normal style.

I Tend to base Body Text on "No Style", then set List Bullet 1-9, List
Number 1-9, List Indent, etc to be based on Body Text.

The Headings are all based on Heading 1. The running Header and Footer
styles are based on the Heading styles also.

Typically, my output may be destined to be published in Word, PDF and HTML
formats. I would use different font sets for each. If I set up my
inheritance properly, I need to change only two styles to fit the document
from PDF to web. Every other style in the document is inheriting from one
or the other of the master styles.

Hope this helps

Using "Body Text":

I can see a benefit of using a style other than Normal, as it is then
easily modified without unintended consequences.

A couple of questions:
1. I can't find any mention in 'Help' for Body Text: does Body Text
have any other qualities other than as an alternative style-name?
(i.e. any reason to use Body Text rather than just Text?)
2. Do you then make your consequent styles (such as Heading 1 etc)
based on Body Text or on Normal?

(I'm running Office 2008 on 10.4.11 PPC)

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

--

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Tim Streater]

Both excellent questions

1) No. Body Text has no special qualities. The only reasons to use it are:
A) That's the style Documentation Professionals would use for that purpose,
and
B) It's built-in, so you do not have to create it.

If you use the built-in style names, you will have an easier job
re-purposing your text to the web, since most web editors expect the
standard style set and will format accordingly. Of course, you adjust the
styles to your formatting preferences.

Body Text begins life as a copy of the Normal style, with all its properties
based upon the Normal style. As you change each property, you break its
chain of inheritance to Normal (which is a good thing: otherwise any change
to Normal would change your Body Text).

I'm slightly puzzled here. I was working on my doc in which all the
styles derive from Normal. For some reason, Normal appeared to be set to
Language: US English. I changed Normal to be UK English, but at least
some of the inherited styles stayed as US English (e.g. the headings).
That is, if I listed a heading style, it now looked like:

Normal + Language: US English, Font: 16pt ....

Why did the inherited styles insist on retaining the language setting
they had previously inherited from Normal?

Cheers

 

[CyberTaz]

I'm slightly puzzled here. I was working on my doc in which all the
styles derive from Normal. For some reason, Normal appeared to be set to
Language: US English. I changed Normal to be UK English, but at least
some of the inherited styles stayed as US English (e.g. the headings).
That is, if I listed a heading style, it now looked like:

Normal + Language: US English, Font: 16pt ....

Why did the inherited styles insist on retaining the language setting
they had previously inherited from Normal?

Cheers

When one style ( the "child") is based on another (the "parent") it does
indeed inherit all properties. However, if any of the child's properties are
made different from the parent's it breaks the connection for that
particular attribute. IOW, if the parent & child are identical for
everything but font size, the child will re-inherit any attribute changes
made to the parent *except* for font size.

Based on your description, the Language formatting of the text involved was
apparently applied directly rather than by way of a change to Normal, so
when Normal's Language was changed it didn't affect that text. Otherwise the
Style would have been indicated simply as Normal rather than
Normal+Language... The + indicates that the Normal style was used but the
attributes following the + deviate from what the Style specifies.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[dow]

Both excellent questions

1)  No. Body Text has no special qualities.  The only reasons to use it are:
A) That's the style Documentation Professionals would use for that purpose,
and
B) It's built-in, so you do not have to create it.

If you use the built-in style names, you will have an easier job
re-purposing your text to the web, since most web editors expect the
standard style set and will format accordingly.  Of course, you adjust the
styles to your formatting preferences.

Body Text begins life as a copy of the Normal style, with all its properties
based upon the Normal style.  As you change each property, you break its
chain of inheritance to Normal (which is a good thing: otherwise any change
to Normal would change your Body Text).

2)  I tend to Base Heading 1 on "No Style".  It may take me a couple of
tries to achieve the effect I want in Body Text, and I do not want the
headings changing while I do that.

I tend to base Heading 2 on Heading 1, Heading 3 on Heading 2, etc down the
chain.

In professional documentation practice, "Inheritance" is a very powerful
tool in long document work.  Each style can be set to inherit from another
style, and a set of styles can be set to form a "chain of inheritance".

In a blank default document, EVERY style is set to inherit from Normal
style.  If you want to take control of your formatting, the first thingyou
will do is break that chain at selected places.  In my practice, almost
nothing should be based on Normal style.

I Tend to base Body Text on "No Style", then set List Bullet 1-9, List
Number 1-9, List Indent, etc to be based on Body Text.

The Headings are all based on Heading 1.  The running Header and Footer
styles are based on the Heading styles also.

Typically, my output may be destined to be published in Word, PDF and HTML
formats.  I would use different font sets for each.  If I set up my
inheritance properly, I need to change only two styles to fit the document
from PDF to web.  Every other style in the document is inheriting from one
or the other of the master styles.

Hope this helps






This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

 --

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

USING BODY TEXT:

John, thank you for a wonderfully helpful and cogent set of answers:
I'm changing over to Body Text.

 

[John McGhie]

You're welcome:

Here's another little tip: Set your Body Text style to have 0 Space Above,
and ten points (or whatever) space BELOW.

It is MUCH easier to paginate long documents if all the interparagraph
spacing is BELOW for body text ‹ it avoids that "ragged top margin" problem.

I set 10 pts below on practically everything, including the Headings. Then
I set 2-1/2 times the font height ABOVE on the Heading styles, except for
Heading 1, which I also set to 0 because I generally use Page Break Before
to place Heading 1s at the top of the page.

Let me know if that's too cryptic ...

Cheers

USING BODY TEXT:

John, thank you for a wonderfully helpful and cogent set of answers:
I'm changing over to Body Text.

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

--

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[dow]

You're welcome:

Here's another little tip:  Set your Body Text style to have 0 SpaceAbove,
and ten points (or whatever) space BELOW.

It is MUCH easier to paginate long documents if all the interparagraph
spacing is BELOW for body text ‹ it avoids that "ragged top margin" problem.

I set 10 pts below on practically everything, including the Headings.  Then
I set 2-1/2 times the font height ABOVE on the Heading styles, except for
Heading 1, which I also set to 0 because I generally use Page Break Before
to place Heading 1s at the top of the page.

Let me know if that's too cryptic ...

Cheers





This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

 --

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

Body Text spacing: entirely clear.
I also like your rule-of-thumb for deciding on 'Space before'.

Thanks again.

 

[CyberTaz]

Yeah, you'd almost get the impression that John knows what he's talking
about ;-)

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[John McGhie]

A notion Mr Jones will be quick to dispell

He's as bad as that sheep-farmer from Canberra

Yeah, you'd almost get the impression that John knows what he's talking
about ;-)

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

--

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[CyberTaz]

I consider that a compliment, worthy of which I am not ;-)

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[John McGhie]

Now you're starting to sound like him

I consider that a compliment, worthy of which I am not ;-)

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

--

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Clive Huggan]

I don't. Baaaa humbug!

CH
====

I consider that a compliment, worthy of which I am not ;-)

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Clive Huggan]

USING BODY TEXT:

John, thank you for a wonderfully helpful and cogent set of answers:
I'm changing over to Body Text.

Now go one step further: create a style with identical characteristics to
what you have chosen for Body Text and name it "body text,bt" (note the
absence of a space). Then you can invoke the style by keying Command-Shift-s
followed by bt followed by Return. You don't select text before doing this;
just have the insertion point in the correct paragraph. Very quick and you
never make the wrong selection.

For further information on this, see page 96 of some notes on the way I use
Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word to Your Will", which are available as a
free download from the Word MVPs' website
(http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html).

[Note: "Bend Word to your will" is designed to be used electronically and
most subjects are self-contained dictionary-style entries. If you decide to
read more widely than the item I've referred to, it's important to read the
front end of the document -- especially pages 3 and 5 -- so you can select
some Word settings that will allow you to use the document effectively.]

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Clive:

Why would you not simply add the "bt" alias to the Body Text style itself?

A style can have a very large number of aliases (about 147 characters worth,
if anyone cares...).

The comma is important: without it, you are actually re-naming the style.
Some of the built-in styles won't allow themselves to be re-named, other
styles will and the result can be heartache...

Cheers

Now go one step further: create a style with identical characteristics to
what you have chosen for Body Text and name it "body text,bt" (note the
absence of a space). Then you can invoke the style by keying Command-Shift-s
followed by bt followed by Return. You don't select text before doing this;
just have the insertion point in the correct paragraph. Very quick and you
never make the wrong selection.

For further information on this, see page 96 of some notes on the way I use
Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word to Your Will", which are available as a
free download from the Word MVPs' website
(http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html).

[Note: "Bend Word to your will" is designed to be used electronically and
most subjects are self-contained dictionary-style entries. If you decide to
read more widely than the item I've referred to, it's important to read the
front end of the document -- especially pages 3 and 5 -- so you can select
some Word settings that will allow you to use the document effectively.]

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

--

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[AstroGuy]

Appreciate all the replies! (Although you all need to turn off the quoting function--or strip them out before replying--this thread is mostly quotes of previous posts! ) I actually replied several days ago, but I guess there must have been a browser glitch as my post isn't here!

Just to situate myself... I'm a several decades veteran of using Word, including running workshops and submitting tips to mags. I go all the way back to Word 1 under DOS and its first incarnations on the Mac! And was thrilled when Microsoft introduced style sheets with all their power so long ago.

John, I appreciate your clear overview of styles and parent-child inheritance. Still, I have a much different take on this redefine styles biz! I understand the issue... changing the Normal style will have effects that ripple throughout the document. But that's exactly what I want! Plus, if you base a bunch of styles on Body and change it, you have a similar rippling issue.

The key point is that it should be up to the user if they'd like to redefine Normal-- and that's how it used to be! As an alternative, Microsoft could provide a pop-up warning if someone were about to change Normal... or give "advanced" users a pref setting to permit it. But I won't hold my breath on that and will stick to using the multi-step process of going through the Format-Style menus to change Normal.

Now, my approach to formatting paragraphs and using space before is very different from John's! I always use space before and eschew space after. This began, I suppose, because I wanted my major headings to have, say, 18 points *before* them and made sure that the heading style had that built in. If, instead, I depended on space *after* to format headings that way, that would require having to add space to the final paragraph in the section before a heading! That's not good as that paragraph may be moved or another inserted after it-- and I'll end up with paragraphs that have space after but shouldn't! It's more logical and makes much more sense to have the space before associated with the heading itself! Once I started doing that, for consistency's sake, I made spacing before my modus operandi. Keeps things simple for my feeble word processing brain!

Oh, well, different strokes for different folks!

 

[Clive Huggan]

No huge reason. In fact as you know, since this is a
top-of-the-inheritance-hierarchy style of mine I simply call it "bt" anyway.

I suspect another reason is that I can't see the point of title case style
names. But I still retain the title case for "Heading 1,1". Just goes to
show how inconsistent I am ... ;-)

It must be the sheep...

Cheers,

Clive
======

Hi Clive:

Why would you not simply add the "bt" alias to the Body Text style itself?

A style can have a very large number of aliases (about 147 characters worth,
if anyone cares...).

The comma is important: without it, you are actually re-naming the style.
Some of the built-in styles won't allow themselves to be re-named, other
styles will and the result can be heartache...

Cheers

Now go one step further: create a style with identical characteristics to
what you have chosen for Body Text and name it "body text,bt" (note the
absence of a space). Then you can invoke the style by keying Command-Shift-s
followed by bt followed by Return. You don't select text before doing this;
just have the insertion point in the correct paragraph. Very quick and you
never make the wrong selection.

For further information on this, see page 96 of some notes on the way I use
Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word to Your Will", which are available as a
free download from the Word MVPs' website
(http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html).

[Note: "Bend Word to your will" is designed to be used electronically and
most subjects are self-contained dictionary-style entries. If you decide to
read more widely than the item I've referred to, it's important to read the
front end of the document -- especially pages 3 and 5 -- so you can select
some Word settings that will allow you to use the document effectively.]

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

--

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[John McGhie]

Appreciate your comments

Appreciate all the replies! (Although you all need to turn off the quoting
function--or strip them out before replying--this thread is mostly quotes of
previous posts!

Nup! This is UseNet, where threaded discussions and quoting have been the
practice since you began using Word Most of us access this discussion
directly at nntp:\\msnews.microsoft.com because that never breaks down or
goes wonky People reading it with a browser can look around ‹ some web
services render it better than others.

The key point is that it should be up to the user if they'd like to redefine
Normal-- and that's how it used to be!

And still is! Nothing has changed. Except that now, we recommend that the
user does NOT change Normal, otherwise the spacing won't match in all the
various graphics and document parts and SmartArt graphics and whatever that
all inherit from Normal.

You end up with the modern features of Word being very difficult to use. If
you switch to using Body Text, you do not get the problem. So we recommend
that, for people who use styles.

But if you want to change Normal, have at it! You can change it just the
way you always could. A couple of versions ago, they did disable the
"Automatically update" feature for Normal, because too many unskilled users
were getting themselves into trouble with it. And this time, they disabled
"Redefine by example" for Normal, again to prevent people from wrecking
their documents by accident.

But skilled users generally use Format>Style for such changes, and they
shouldn't notice any difference.

Now, my approach to formatting paragraphs and using space before is very
different from John's!

I don't think it is, but you may have misread what I said

"10 points below" is not the ONLY spacing I apply to styles. But by putting
body text spacing below the paragraph, Word paginates more neatly
automatically, because it does not give a ragged top margin.

I guess this is only of concern when you are working double-sided. But when
you book-bind a printed document, any space above the body text will be
suppressed sometimes and not at others, leading to the position of body text
at the top of the page wandering up and down. Very unsightly! If there's 0
space above, it can't do it

As you say, this is a "Keep it simple". The rules for when Word will, and
will not, suppress space above at the top of a page, are very complex.
Rather than figure them out, and have to intervene on nearly every page to
override them, I just remove space above from the Body paragraphs.

But for headings, I also mentioned that I apply 2-1/2 times the font height
as space above. Because when Word paginates, it will normally automatically
suppress the space above on Heading styles, so you get an even top margin.
And I don't have to think

So the space before IS on the heading itself, in what I wrote

Oh, well, different strokes for different folks!

Absolutely! Word is extremely flexible, and enables each of us to work the
way they want to. If you "leave everything standard" you are not getting
the benefit of owning Word, in my book

Cheers

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

--

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]