Same doc formats differently on 2 diff computers

[Posterizer]

Gang,
I've downloaded a Word doc (97-04 format) on two different Macs. Both
machines are running the latest version of Office. The older Mac (G5)
is running Tiger (OSX 10.4.latest) whereas the newer Mac (Intel) is
running Leopard (OSX 10.5.5). Both machines have drivers installed for
the same set of 4 HP laser printers.

When I open this doc on the newer computer, it formats correctly. It is
3 pages long with very tight margins. When opened on the older
computer, the very last part of page 1 gets bumped onto the top of page
2, and the rest of page 2 is blank, pushing the remaining 2 pages down
(so a total of 4 pages in length).

Page 1 of the document consists of a rather large and detailed table, so
what is being pushed onto page 2 on the older computer is the last 2
rows of the table.

As far as I can tell, everything is identical between these two
computers except for the OS version (and hardware, but I doubt that's
critical). Is it possible that the print drivers that came with Tiger
are slightly different than those that came with Leopard *for the same
printers*? That is, could the driver for a LaserJet 2300, for example,
differ on Tiger vs Leopard?

I've never had to download drivers--I've always used the pre-installed
ones with the OS, so that's the only thing I can think of.

Any suggestions? I need to be able to print this document correctly
from both computers.

TIA,
Dennis

 

[Elliott Roper]

Gang,
I've downloaded a Word doc (97-04 format) on two different Macs. Both
machines are running the latest version of Office. The older Mac (G5)
is running Tiger (OSX 10.4.latest) whereas the newer Mac (Intel) is
running Leopard (OSX 10.5.5). Both machines have drivers installed for
the same set of 4 HP laser printers.

When I open this doc on the newer computer, it formats correctly. It is
3 pages long with very tight margins. When opened on the older
computer, the very last part of page 1 gets bumped onto the top of page
2, and the rest of page 2 is blank, pushing the remaining 2 pages down
(so a total of 4 pages in length).

Page 1 of the document consists of a rather large and detailed table, so
what is being pushed onto page 2 on the older computer is the last 2
rows of the table.

As far as I can tell, everything is identical between these two
computers except for the OS version (and hardware, but I doubt that's
critical). Is it possible that the print drivers that came with Tiger
are slightly different than those that came with Leopard *for the same
printers*? That is, could the driver for a LaserJet 2300, for example,
differ on Tiger vs Leopard?

I've never had to download drivers--I've always used the pre-installed
ones with the OS, so that's the only thing I can think of.

Any suggestions? I need to be able to print this document correctly
from both computers.

Almost certainly different drivers. Certainly different print system. I
went looking for one of my old Tiger PPDs for an ancient printer today,
and its gone. Leopard somehow packaged into an "application".

If you want exactly the same looking print from two machines. Print to
PDF from the one you like, and print the resulting PDF everywhere.
It is the only rational approach. Word has no idea what a page is, and
will choose the most inconvenient moment to change its mind.
A slight perturbation in the phase of the moon is sufficient cause.

 

[Posterizer]

Almost certainly different drivers. Certainly different print system. I
went looking for one of my old Tiger PPDs for an ancient printer today,
and its gone. Leopard somehow packaged into an "application".

If you want exactly the same looking print from two machines. Print to
PDF from the one you like, and print the resulting PDF everywhere.
It is the only rational approach. Word has no idea what a page is, and
will choose the most inconvenient moment to change its mind.
A slight perturbation in the phase of the moon is sufficient cause.

Hrm. Well, what I didn't mention was that the older computer belongs to
a colleague and the newer one is mine. The colleague needs to edit the
document (which happens to be a form with fields to enter) and then
print it. While it's feasible, it isn't very practical for her to use
my computer to do this editing and saving as PDF, especially if it
happens again with other docs.

Alternatively, I looked for a means to scale down the print job in
Word's print dialog but didn't see any means (I think Safari has an
option that defaults at 100%, and which I periodically have to tweak
downward a bit to get a webpage to print on one sheet).

Thanks,
Dennis

 

[Elliott Roper]

Hrm. Well, what I didn't mention was that the older computer belongs to
a colleague and the newer one is mine. The colleague needs to edit the
document (which happens to be a form with fields to enter) and then
print it. While it's feasible, it isn't very practical for her to use
my computer to do this editing and saving as PDF, especially if it
happens again with other docs.

Alternatively, I looked for a means to scale down the print job in
Word's print dialog but didn't see any means (I think Safari has an
option that defaults at 100%, and which I periodically have to tweak
downward a bit to get a webpage to print on one sheet).

There are two things you can do.
1. Have your colleague mail you the filled-in Doc. You confirm the
pagination is OK on your machine, and mail her back the pdf which she
prints. OK, an ugly time consuming hack, but it will dig you out of
immediate messes.

2. Carefully re-design the document with more generous margins, and
with attention to keep-with-next and keep lines together.
Word forms are slippery animals, so it might turn out to be quite
tricky.

Oh, one more thing. Have you both got the exact same fonts of the exact
same version number, date and size, all sitting in matching directories
and without duplicates?
That's essentially /Library/Fonts and ~/Library/fonts.
Remember, Office has 1000 ways to pooch your most carefully thought out
font arrangements.

 

[Posterizer]

1. Have your colleague mail you the filled-in Doc. You confirm the
pagination is OK on your machine, and mail her back the pdf which she
prints. OK, an ugly time consuming hack, but it will dig you out of
immediate messes.

Ahh, yes, that would work. Not ideal but certainly do-able. Only takes
a few seconds to save as a PDF.

2. Carefully re-design the document with more generous margins, and
with attention to keep-with-next and keep lines together.
Word forms are slippery animals, so it might turn out to be quite
tricky.

The department that created the form (on Windows machines, no doubt)
used every last bit of real estate on the page. Seriously, top margin
0.45", bottom 0.20", sides 0.31", header 0.25" and footer 0.03". I
wouldn't be surprised if this thing causes a warning from the printer
that it's exceeded the printable area. In which case, I don't know what
I'll do.

Oh, one more thing. Have you both got the exact same fonts of the exact
same version number, date and size, all sitting in matching directories
and without duplicates?
That's essentially /Library/Fonts and ~/Library/fonts.

Now that I don't know. Probably not, assuming that Apple seems to
change the default fonts included with each major OS. It appears that
the text in the document was done in Arial of various sizes, and the
form fields show up as Times New Roman. I'm sure we both have those
fonts and sizes, but as far as versions go, I have no clue.

I'm utterly lost when it comes to fonts. I can open FontBook and click
the triangle next to Arial, for example. It shows me essentially two of
every font face under Arial, one with a dot/bullet and one without. If
I right-click and reveal each in the Finder, the one with the bullet is
shown in my hard-drive/Library/Fonts folder and is listed as a Windows
TrueType Font (Windows, ironic). The one without the bullet is stored
in my hard-drive/Library/Fonts/Microsoft and is listed as a Font
Suitcase.

This brings back vague memories of font confusion I used to have circa
Mac OS 6 or 7... I still don't understand it all

Remember, Office has 1000 ways to pooch your most carefully thought out
font arrangements.

And when they're not carefully thought out to begin with, watch out! ;-)

Dennis

 

[Posterizer]

I'm utterly lost when it comes to fonts. I can open FontBook and click
the triangle next to Arial, for example. It shows me essentially two of
every font face under Arial, one with a dot/bullet and one without. If
I right-click and reveal each in the Finder, the one with the bullet is
shown in my hard-drive/Library/Fonts folder and is listed as a Windows
TrueType Font (Windows, ironic). The one without the bullet is stored
in my hard-drive/Library/Fonts/Microsoft and is listed as a Font
Suitcase.

As a follow-up to this, I did the same look at the older computer (the
above was on the newer). The stuff in Font Book was the same but both
the bulleted and non-bulleted ones were from Font Suitcase files. And
the one with the bullet was also rather old--all of the suitcases in the
Fonts folder were from 2000, whereas the suitcases in the Microsoft
folder inside that same Fonts folder were all from 2007.

Not sure that helps, but it does at least identify a significant
difference. Maybe I should argue for upgrading that older computer to
Leopard (if it can handle it--Office 2008 is already a bit slow on the
G5 running Tiger). But that would hopefully bring all the fonts up to
date.

Dennis

 

[Elliott Roper]

Ahh, yes, that would work. Not ideal but certainly do-able. Only takes
a few seconds to save as a PDF.



The department that created the form (on Windows machines, no doubt)
used every last bit of real estate on the page. Seriously, top margin
0.45", bottom 0.20", sides 0.31", header 0.25" and footer 0.03". I
wouldn't be surprised if this thing causes a warning from the printer
that it's exceeded the printable area. In which case, I don't know what
I'll do.

Ah. So you don't get to play. Those tiny margins are a major cause of
the pagination discrepancies you are seeing.

Now that I don't know. Probably not, assuming that Apple seems to
change the default fonts included with each major OS. It appears that
the text in the document was done in Arial of various sizes, and the
form fields show up as Times New Roman. I'm sure we both have those
fonts and sizes, but as far as versions go, I have no clue.

Yep, it is not just Apple, but Microsoft who play fast and loose with
the users' fonts. Times New Roman and Arial are Microsoft messes. If
you ever had Word v.X on either machine, expect special messes.

I can't be sure, but even a Mac with no purchased Office software may
arrive pre-pooched, thanks to the egregious Office Test Drive that was
bundled with many a Mac.

I'm utterly lost when it comes to fonts. I can open FontBook and click
the triangle next to Arial, for example. It shows me essentially two of
every font face under Arial, one with a dot/bullet and one without.

That's FontBook telling you that you have duplicates.

If I right-click and reveal each in the Finder, the one with the
bullet is shown in my hard-drive/Library/Fonts folder and is listed
as a Windows TrueType Font (Windows, ironic). The one without the
bullet is stored in my hard-drive/Library/Fonts/Microsoft and is
listed as a Font Suitcase.

Not irony. Cold hard fact. Microsoft scribbled over your font
directories when Office was installed and FontBook has fought back by
disabling the possibly wrong duplicate.

If you can be bothered, you and your colleague should compare fonts. It
is made all the more interesting when deciding which. Be aware that
Microsoft lies about creation dates and may number increasing font
versions with decreasing numbers. When I sorted out the mess left after
using both Office 2004 and v.X, I chose the largest of each on offer,
regardless of what Fontbook reported as version number and dates. The
possibly mistaken theory I had was the newer unicode fonts would be the
largest. It took forever, and I still come across unresolved messes
years later.

This brings back vague memories of font confusion I used to have circa
Mac OS 6 or 7... I still don't understand it all

Now that you are older and wiser, you have a more difficult problem!

And when they're not carefully thought out to begin with, watch out! ;-)

Now you are getting into the spirit of it.

To give credit where it is due. I believe Microsoft cleaned up their
font vandalism with Office 2008. Not only that, many of their new fonts
are delightfully elegant and very readable.

It is not enough to tempt me to open that can however.

Finally, if your font itch needs further scratching, may I recommend
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75494
Don't be put off by the 10.2 in the title. It is still worth reading.

 

[Posterizer]

Yep, it is not just Apple, but Microsoft who play fast and loose with
the users' fonts. Times New Roman and Arial are Microsoft messes. If
you ever had Word v.X on either machine, expect special messes.

Yes, I definitely had v.X at one time. I've never done a clean upgrade
on the OS when a new version comes out, and whenever I've gotten a new
computer I use the firewire target disk mode to transfer all of my
settings and such to the new computer). So I'm sure there are remnants
from a lot of previous incarnations of Word on the older and newer
computer.

Incidentally, that older computer my colleague is using used to be mine.
Which is why I inherited this headache when she found out she was having
these issues with Word ;-)

If you can be bothered, you and your colleague should compare fonts. It
is made all the more interesting when deciding which. Be aware that
Microsoft lies about creation dates and may number increasing font
versions with decreasing numbers. When I sorted out the mess left after
using both Office 2004 and v.X, I chose the largest of each on offer,
regardless of what Fontbook reported as version number and dates. The
possibly mistaken theory I had was the newer unicode fonts would be the
largest. It took forever, and I still come across unresolved messes
years later.

Hrm, I don't remember seeing any version data in Fontbook--I had to
backtrack to the original font files and do Get Info on them. Either
way, that sounds like a daunting task and one I'd probably make worse.

So which font does Word use when there are duplicates? I imagine that
dot is significant... I suppose I should look into Fontbook's help files.

Finally, if your font itch needs further scratching, may I recommend
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75494
Don't be put off by the 10.2 in the title. It is still worth reading.

thanks!
Dennis