Service Release 2 does not fix font problem

[Loren]

Hard to believe, but after over 6 months of waiting for MS to fix the
font problem that everyone seems to have, now SR2 is out and it does
not fix it.

Coincidentally, I had the corrupt font problem again this morning with
Excel. I actually had to resort to downloading a trial shareware
"excel-compatible" spreadsheed just to look at my darn spreadsheet
file, because I was in a hurry.

Then this afternoon the SR2 was announced, and I went yeah!!! finally a
fix for this irritating problem. And I installed it, and ran excel.
Guess what? It did not go away. MS is totally incompetent.

So now I've done what I've been doing -- Tiger Cache Cleaner to "deep
clean" all caches, and restart. That always fixes it -- for a while.
But it's time consuming: 5 mins to clean the caches plus a restart.

Come on MS.

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

Hard to believe, but after over 6 months of waiting for MS to fix the
font problem that everyone seems to have, now SR2 is out and it does
not fix it.

What font problem ??

Corentin

 

[Loren]

What font problem ??

Corentin

Oh come on Corentin. The one that about 30% of the posts on this board
are about. The problem starting up with corrupt font messages under
Tiger. As if it needs to be said. Sheesh.

 

[Andrew Foster]

Argh.

No kidding. I can't even run the applications. The font corruption
problem has now
spread to some of my clients machines.

This is ridiculous. Fix the damn problem so we can actually.. you
know.. start the
application and work.

C

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

Oh come on Corentin. The one that about 30% of the posts on this board
are about. The problem starting up with corrupt font messages under
Tiger. As if it needs to be said. Sheesh.

What do you mean come on Loren? I sure know that if you do have corrupt
fonts (or font cache), Office apps act all funky, but it sure isn't
obvious to me that once the font problem has been fixed it ever comes
back recurrently just like that.
That's what I mean by "what font problem".
I've seen font corruption preventing the apps to launch, but I've never
seen it come back just like that. That's what happens to you?? I'm
really not sio sure the recurrence of these corruptions is so common at
all :-\

Corentin

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

Argh.

No kidding. I can't even run the applications. The font corruption
problem has now
spread to some of my clients machines.

This is ridiculous. Fix the damn problem so we can actually.. you
know.. start the
application and work.

I really haven't seen the font corruption issue coming back like what
you describe. I don;t remember reading about it or seing it on one of
the Mac that we have around here (about 10).

I'd be worried that some third party app is playing tricks on your fonts
(especially if you see this consistently on several Mac with a similar
setup). I clearly don't think it's the system and I don't think it's
Office either. Office apps sure freeze when the fonts are corrupted, but
I've never seen them actually corrupting the fonts.


Corentin

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

You should be able to do a safe boot to regenerate the font caches (or use a
utility like Tiger Cache Cleaner), and then it should work until the
computer gets turned off.

Also check for duplicate fonts, resolving those has fixed it for some
people.

Also see this thread for some possible problem files:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.mac.office.word/browse_frm/t
hread/f10dec3adc2d6c63/7394a677e2991f86

Also search the Word group for Tiger and font--people have posted various
fixes that worked for them:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.mac.office.word

Argh.

No kidding. I can't even run the applications. The font corruption
problem has now
spread to some of my clients machines.

This is ridiculous. Fix the damn problem so we can actually.. you
know.. start the
application and work.

C

 

[Loren]

What do you mean come on Loren?

I mean for an MVP that reads these boards I simply can't believe you
don't know what I and about 100 other people have been saying for 6
months and it has to be explained again.

I sure know that if you do have corrupt
fonts (or font cache), Office apps act all funky, but it sure isn't
obvious to me that once the font problem has been fixed it ever comes
back recurrently just like that.

It does. Read the board. I'm not the only one by a long shot. And
it's the cache, not the fonts, that are "corrupt". Which means they are
not actual corrupt, because they work fine in every other application
other than office products.

This makes it the problem of OFFICE, not of me, not of any other user.

As for Diaya's more helpful posts than your "doh, what problem? must be
you", that's all well and good to have some methods users have used to
fix the problem, but WHY SHOULD WE? This is a $400 product. You can
expect that it will be fixed on the DEVELOPER's END, and shorter than 6
months time.

That's what I mean by "what font problem".
I've seen font corruption preventing the apps to launch, but I've never
seen it come back just like that. That's what happens to you?? I'm
really not sio sure the recurrence of these corruptions is so common at
all :-\

Read the boards.

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

Hi Loren,

I mean for an MVP that reads these boards I simply can't believe you
don't know what I and about 100 other people have been saying for 6
months and it has to be explained again.

I read the board almost daily (if not more than once a day) and I still
say the same thing:
- I've read hundreds of posts mentioning Office refusing to startup
because of fonts or font cache corruption
- I don't remember people with *recurrent* font or font cache corruption
issues.

It does. Read the board. I'm not the only one by a long shot. And
it's the cache, not the fonts, that are "corrupt". Which means they are
not actual corrupt, because they work fine in every other application
other than office products.

Hum... you are talking about the System font cache. I am talking about
the Office font cache (the one in ~/Library/Preferences/Microsoft/).
That's quite different. Trashing the System font cache won't fix the
problem most of the time.

This makes it the problem of OFFICE, not of me, not of any other user.

As for Diaya's more helpful posts than your "doh, what problem? must be
you",

I guess I should have been more clear. When I said "what font problem" I
should have said:
"I don't know of any recurring font problem with Office if the Fonts are
not corrupted and if the Office Font cache has been porperly cleaned-up:
what other known font problem are you referring to?"
I
understand that the orinal phrasing of my post could have seemed a
little abrupt, but that's clearly not what I intended. I sure didn't
mean "doh" but instead "please elaborate because I don't know how to
address your question unless you give us more details".

that's all well and good to have some methods users have used to
fix the problem, but WHY SHOULD WE? This is a $400 product. You can
expect that it will be fixed on the DEVELOPER's END, and shorter than 6
months time.

None of us in the newsgroup are in the position to fix any of these
problems. All you'll find here are people who might know a workaround or
a simple fix allowing you to get the app up and running.

Read the boards.

I did. I can't find refeerences to a recurring font problem that would
come back by itself once the onriginal issue has been adressed as
suggested on the board.

I can try to assume you are talking about the Office font cache issue.
Then if you quit all Office app (Entourage could still run even though
the other apps won't launch) and then trash
~/Library/Preferences/Microsoft/Office Font Cache (11) (~/ represents
your user folder), can you launch Word and does the problem ever come
back ??
If it does come back, is your user folder located outside the boot
partition on your Mac?


If your fonts or font cache are corrupted, there is no way a new update
will fix the problem (unless the installer takes it upon itself to
perform some cleaniup and trash the previous cache).

For information, here is what I know of font issues that make Office act
funky:
- corrupted Fonts: this is a system-wide problem that can also affect
other apps than Office. Many apps won't care, but some other apps might
crash or hang or display glitches ontheir documents. There are many
methods to find out what font (in the many active font directories
recognized by the system) are corrupted. The easiest being using a Font
Utility like FontDoctor. You usually cannot fix corrupted fonts and they
have to be either trashed or reinstalled.

- corrupted MacOS X font cache at the system or user level: this will
also affect many apps. Cleaning up the mess manually is rather tedious
but hopefully there are several utilities outthere that do it all for
you in a flash. Rebooting right after trashing the font cache is
mandatory (even though some of the utilities don't mention it). The best
utiilties either force you to reboot once they're done, or move the
cache to the trash without emptying it and then ask you to reboot.

- corrupted Office Font cache: This is the one I mentioned here. I don't
know what corrupts it, but cleaning it up is fairly easy.

All three problems have been reported numerous time in the group indeed.
If cleaned up properly, they should not come backjust like that (and I
haven't read any report indicating that they did come back if they were
properly cleaned - which, with the second problem listed is not always
trivial).
The first two are system-wide problems not induced by Office (but that
greatly affect Word Excel and PowerPoint).
None of these problems are usually adressed in any update of any kind
(Apple or MS) since they are related to file corruption and beyond the
scope of any update. If the problem was recurring and caused
systematically by the System or Office, then I would agree that an
update might address the problem for good, but so far I haven't seen any
evidence for that.

Now Loren (and I don't mean "doh"): is the problem you are talking about
one of the three I listed or is it different ?? Does it come back once
proper cleanup has been performed ??


Corentin

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

I
understand that the orinal phrasing of my post could have seemed a
little abrupt, but that's clearly not what I intended. I sure didn't
mean "doh" but instead "please elaborate because I don't know how to
address your question unless you give us more details".

Let me come back on that :-\
I believe I should put in my signature "English is not my first language
so please when I post something that seems harsh don't take it on the
first degree since it is probably an improper use of word on my part".

I guess it would have been better (yet still al little short) if I had
posted "Which of the known font problems" instead of "what" or if I had
emphasized that the puzzling part for me was the implication that the
problem was recurrent and not that it was a Font problem.

Sorry if the phrasing sounded more like "duh" :-|

Corentin

 

[Loren]

Now Loren (and I don't mean "doh"): is the problem you are talking about
one of the three I listed or is it different ?? Does it come back once
proper cleanup has been performed ??


Corentin

Corentin,

Thanks for the longer response. Thanks for the clarification about
English not being your native language too, which makes your response
make more sense.

I still think you're missing the very obvious here, because I've seen
this problem (INCLUDING the recurrent part of it) posted here and other
places for months here and all over the place. But then I'm affected
by it.

I can't fully test all possibilities right now because it is for now
fixed by Tiger Cache Cleaner. So I suspect the problem is one of the
system level caches and not the MS font cache. However, these
corrupted fonts are not actually corrupted because they affect no other
product than Office. It's Office's problem. I understand these user
groups are to help with fixes and such but I hope that MS people read
them and do bloody something about them.

The problem does come back up every so often even though I've done a
deep clean with Tiger Cache Cleaner. That does require a reboot. And
after the reboot Office starts up fine. It's just eventually it comes
back. I stopped using Word and Excell whenever I can because of this
(I'm now using TextEdit for regular text editing and avoidng
speadsheets when possible) so I can't tell you how many days -- or
launches -- it takes.

 

[Priyanka Singhal [MSFT]]

Hi Loren ,

This issue, introduced with the release of Tiger is known . We are working
closely with Apple to resolve the issue.

Thanks,
Priyanka

 

[Loren]

Hi Loren ,

This issue, introduced with the release of Tiger is known . We are
working closely with Apple to resolve the issue.

Thanks,
Priyanka

Thank you. That's really reassuring. But really, how long could it
really take. I mean it's been 6 months and you just released a service
update that doesn't fix it.

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

I can't fully test all possibilities right now because it is for now
fixed by Tiger Cache Cleaner. So I suspect the problem is one of the
system level caches and not the MS font cache.

Don't bother testing the MS cache of font corruption then. It most
probably is a system font cache issue.

However, these
corrupted fonts are not actually corrupted because they affect no other
product than Office. It's Office's problem. I understand these user
groups are to help with fixes and such but I hope that MS people read
them and do bloody something about them.

I'm quite sute MS is working on it, though if I expect a fix, it will
come from Apple. The problem has to be fixed at the ssytem level (but MS
could introduce a safaguard in their apps that would detect the
corruption, give you a warning and not crash...).

The problem does come back up every so often even though I've done a
deep clean with Tiger Cache Cleaner. That does require a reboot. And
after the reboot Office starts up fine. It's just eventually it comes
back.

That's really bad then. It means some other app (or the system) is
systematically corrupting the font cache. If it's another app, it'll be
extremely hard to identify, though the system should be able to prevent
the corruption.

I stopped using Word and Excell whenever I can because of this
(I'm now using TextEdit for regular text editing and avoidng
speadsheets when possible) so I can't tell you how many days -- or
launches -- it takes.

I understand. This can be really invalidating if the problem comes back
all the time.

Corentin

 

[JE McGimpsey]

Thank you. That's really reassuring. But really, how long could it
really take. I mean it's been 6 months and you just released a service
update that doesn't fix it.

You seem to be operating under assumptions that I haven't seen
validated. Among them...

1) The problem is singular, or at least has a small number of
manifestations.

2) The problem has a known method to reproduce it, so that it is well
understood.

3) The problem is caused by something under the control of either Apple
or MS.

4) That the problem can either be fixed by MS, or that it can be worked
around without setting themselves up for failure when Apple fixes the
problem.

5) That fixing or working around the problem doesn't break something
else, or require a prohibitive architecture/code base change.

6) That the problem affects enough users that it's cost effective for
Apple or MS to spend significant resources on (while it's been discussed
a lot by a relatively small number of folks in these groups, the only
time I had a severe font problem like this was in beta testing a long
while ago, and I support over 1500 Mac desks in a school environment,
none of which, AFAIK, have this problem).

Priyanka's message seems to offer hope that at least (6) may be valid,
but that doesn't matter very much unless the others are also validated.

Having a persistent bug is frustrating, but there are dozens, hundreds,
perhaps even thousands, of them (for instance, userform focus bugs are
far more debilitating from an application developer's perspective, and
those have existed a *lot* longer!). Six months is a long time if that's
all MacBU is working on. Depending on the rest of the priority list, the
root cause, and the resources available, problems that have workarounds
like the one you've found may take much longer, if ever, to get fixed.

 

[Loren]

You seem to be operating under assumptions that I haven't seen
validated. Among them...

1) The problem is singular, or at least has a small number of manifestations.

certainly true

2) The problem has a known method to reproduce it, so that it is well
understood.

maybe not true but pooling people who have this would get it known
quickly if there were a will.

3) The problem is caused by something under the control of either Apple or MS.

it is.

4) That the problem can either be fixed by MS, or that it can be worked
around without setting themselves up for failure when Apple fixes the
problem.

it can, and can be fixed easily enough.

5) That fixing or working around the problem doesn't break something
else, or require a prohibitive architecture/code base change.

then the program is horribly bad.

6) That the problem affects enough users that it's cost effective for
Apple or MS to spend significant resources on (while it's been
discussed a lot by a relatively small number of folks in these groups,
the only time I had a severe font problem like this was in beta testing
a long while ago, and I support over 1500 Mac desks in a school
environment, none of which, AFAIK, have this problem).

cost effective? i spent $400 on this suite and i should expect it launches.

Having a persistent bug is frustrating, but there are dozens, hundreds,
perhaps even thousands, of them (for instance, userform focus bugs are
far more debilitating from an application developer's perspective, and
those have existed a *lot* longer!). Six months is a long time if
that's all MacBU is working on. Depending on the rest of the priority
list, the root cause, and the resources available, problems that have
workarounds like the one you've found may take much longer, if ever, to
get fixed.

absolute horecrap. just read these boards. how many times does this come up?

i'm sick of apologists.

 

[Nathan Herring [MSFT]]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that it is very likely the
fonts are not themselves corrupt. However, saying that because Office is the
only application suffering a problem that it's Office's problem is either
tautological or you mean that it's Office fault, which is not necessarily
indicated. Office exercises a fairly large section of the Mac OS X
functionality, and it's entirely possible that a fully supported OS function
call or calls do not operate correctly under Tiger, but that Office is the
only one to use them or use them in a particular manner may mean that Office
is the only application to demonstrate the problem. It still doesn't make
sense that it'd be Office's fault to use functions that were not broken on
earlier versions of the OS. I'm not saying that's the case here, but merely
that it's not a logical conclusion that one can draw from the evidence
you've presented.

Both Apple and Microsoft work together with beta versions of our products to
make sure that we don't break each other on upgrades. We catch a lot of
these issues, but a few inevitably fall through the cracks.

-nh

 

[JE McGimpsey]

You seem to be operating under assumptions that I haven't seen
validated. Among them...

1) The problem is singular, or at least has a small number of
manifestations.

certainly true[/QUOTE]

??? I've read through threads and haven't seen enough information
presented to constitute demonstrable evidence that this is true, though
it is likely, IMO.

maybe not true but pooling people who have this would get it known
quickly if there were a will.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Serendipity happens, but you can't be sure it will
be any more successful than carefully controlled experimentation. It
could just as easily lead to utter confusion unless everything about the
systems that report is known. There's no guarantee that examining a file
will tell you what caused its corruption, any more than examining a
puddle of water will tell you what shape the ice sculpture was before it
melted. You're using magical thinking, here.

it is.

Don't see any evidence this is anything other than just your assertion.
I didn't see any reports of stock Tiger installs with only Office loaded
displaying the problem. Perhaps I missed them.

it can, and can be fixed easily enough.

You can't even begin to know that. Repeated assertion doesn't make it so.

then the program is horribly bad.

That's likely true. It's millions of lines of code originating 20 years
ago. That alone may prevent dealing with a problem. But if you wish to
have Office on the Mac, that's one of the realities that has to be dealt
with.

cost effective? i spent $400 on this suite and i should expect it launches.

What does your cost have to do with anything? It launches for the vast
majority of thousands of users. That means your system is unusual, even
if others share that difference. Technically, MacBU has zero liability
for that, other than to allow you to return it for a refund if it
doesn't work. If enough users have the problem, it has both a business
and a PR incentive to get the problem fixed, regardless of whose fault
it is.

But MS is a business. MacBU is required to conform to MS business
practices. If that means choosing not to spend a dollar to chase a
nickel, that's what they'll choose. To do anything else is a waste of
their shareholders' resources.

In what other industry is a company *required* to invest substantial
amounts in researching a problem experienced by a small number of
customers, especially when the problem only manifests itself with, and
may be caused by, another manufacturer's product?

Your desire to get a permanent fix is understandable. So is your
frustration. Your indignation, however, is misplaced.

absolute horecrap. just read these boards. how many times does this come
up?

i'm sick of apologists.

I'm hardly being an apologist - I've acknowledged that this could be
MS's problem and it could be easy to fix. I rather pointed out that your
statements were emotional rather than based on facts in evidence, and
that your expectations were not necessarily realistic. But to prevent
further incidents of illness:

<plonk!>

 

[Pierre Tissot]

certainly true

??? I've read through threads and haven't seen enough information
presented to constitute demonstrable evidence that this is true, though
it is likely, IMO.

maybe not true but pooling people who have this would get it known
quickly if there were a will.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Serendipity happens, but you can't be sure it will
be any more successful than carefully controlled experimentation. It
could just as easily lead to utter confusion unless everything about the
systems that report is known. There's no guarantee that examining a file
will tell you what caused its corruption, any more than examining a
puddle of water will tell you what shape the ice sculpture was before it
melted. You're using magical thinking, here.

it is.

Don't see any evidence this is anything other than just your assertion.
I didn't see any reports of stock Tiger installs with only Office loaded
displaying the problem. Perhaps I missed them.

it can, and can be fixed easily enough.

You can't even begin to know that. Repeated assertion doesn't make it so.

then the program is horribly bad.

That's likely true. It's millions of lines of code originating 20 years
ago. That alone may prevent dealing with a problem. But if you wish to
have Office on the Mac, that's one of the realities that has to be dealt
with.

cost effective? i spent $400 on this suite and i should expect it launches.

What does your cost have to do with anything? It launches for the vast
majority of thousands of users. That means your system is unusual, even
if others share that difference. Technically, MacBU has zero liability
for that, other than to allow you to return it for a refund if it
doesn't work. If enough users have the problem, it has both a business
and a PR incentive to get the problem fixed, regardless of whose fault
it is.

But MS is a business. MacBU is required to conform to MS business
practices. If that means choosing not to spend a dollar to chase a
nickel, that's what they'll choose. To do anything else is a waste of
their shareholders' resources.

In what other industry is a company *required* to invest substantial
amounts in researching a problem experienced by a small number of
customers, especially when the problem only manifests itself with, and
may be caused by, another manufacturer's product?

Your desire to get a permanent fix is understandable. So is your
frustration. Your indignation, however, is misplaced.

absolute horecrap. just read these boards. how many times does this come
up?

i'm sick of apologists.

I'm hardly being an apologist - I've acknowledged that this could be
MS's problem and it could be easy to fix. I rather pointed out that your
statements were emotional rather than based on facts in evidence, and
that your expectations were not necessarily realistic. But to prevent
further incidents of illness:

<plonk!>[/QUOTE]
Remove FontCacheTool from support files in office and no more problem.