Start 10 days After

J

Josh Whitney

Task 2 starts an a specific date, March 1st, 2005. It cannot start until 10
days after Task 1 finishes.

Task 1 is estimated to take 5 days, but might change.

The start time for task 1 is dependant on the start time for Task2 minus 10
days minus the finish time for Task 1 . How do I specify the start time
for Task1? It would normally be 15 days before Task 2, but if the estimate
changes for Task1 I want the start time to adjust.

Thanks
 
R

Renaud Duisit

If I understand you well, you want to link a task to both the start and
fionish date of another task. Project will not allow your doing this. :eek:(
I should try the following (be aware this creates circular dependancies that
could become a nightmare to manage). Here you go:

- link T2 to T1 (the sequence is important, select T2 first) with SS link
and -15 day lag. You will probably have to apply a "Start no earlier than..."
constraint to T1 (using task properties/advanced pane)
- link T1 to a new milestone you create with FS link and 0 day lag
- link your new milestone to T2 with FS link and 10 day lag
Have fun!
R.
 
J

Jan De Messemaeker

Hi,

Sorry but this is impossible: Project will not accept such a circular
relationship
HTH
 
S

Sascha Wald

Hi Josh,
Task 2 starts an a specific date, March 1st, 2005. It cannot start until 10
days after Task 1 finishes.
--> so it is not a specific date. This is a standard Finish-Start-Relation
with a lag of 10 days.
Task 1 is estimated to take 5 days, but might change. Doesn't matter.

The start time for task 1 is dependant on the start time for Task2 minus 10
days minus the finish time for Task 1 .
This is unsolvable, even by yourself: You cannot say we start the meeting
when the documentation of that meeting started minus x days and the
documentation can only start n days after finishing the meeting...

I think that your structure is inconsistent. Try to set a correct and
unique link between the two tasks.


sascha


--
*****************************************************
Sascha Wald
adminsoft
Software-Entwicklung und -Wartung
www.adminsoft.info
*****************************************************
 
J

JulieD

Hi Josh

i think you can achieve what you want by setting a must start on constraint
on Task 2 for 1 March 2005
then making Task 2 the predecessor to Task 1
then making the relationship type Start / Finish
and putting a lag of 10 days between the two

Let us know how you go

Cheers
JulieD
 
J

James G

Hi Josh (and the rest of the gang)

Perhaps we are applying too narrow an interpretation on Josh's question.
I'll be making a bit of an assumption, but here goes:

T2 earliest start is March 1st OR 10 days after the finish of T1 - whichever
is the later. If this is correct, then it can be programmed by applying the
contraint of FNLT of Feb 15th on T1. Then on T2 you'd apply the constraint of
SNET March 1st, complete with the T1+10 days predecessor.

If T1 is scheduled to finish earlier than 10 days before the March 1st, and
your T1 duration extends, Project will extend the bar length up until the end
the specified FNLT date. If T1 duration continues to extend, then the bar
length wil begin to start the task earlier, as per requirements.

If T1 is driven by a predecessor, say T-1, and Rescheduling Uncompleted Work
drives the task durations into conflict, you will then get the warning
message. Moreover, if progress has started on T1, and you have to Reschedule
Uncompleted Work or amend the duration of T1 such that the end-date of T1
goes beyond the FNLT date, you will be given a warning....thereby having T1
drive out the start date of T2.

Overall, it seems to work reasonably well...but like anything else, you have
to keep an eye on it. To make monitoring it a little easier, I inserted a
Deadline arrow on T2.

If I've got this all wrong, please beat me with a spiked club.

James.G
 
S

Steve House [MVP]

Actually it would be a lead time - lags delay, leads advance.

I always get uncomfortable with MSO and MFO constraints. If the task is an
event that will happen on that day regardless of anything else that happens
in your project or regardless of whether you even DO the project , then they
might apply. I can see them used, for example, in the space program where
project tasks have to be scheduled around astronomical events that are
completely beyond the control of the project manager. But most of the time
what is expressed as a MSO is really nothing more than a deadline expressed
at a very very high volume <grin>. I wonder, in cases like Josh's, if task
1 is scheduled to start 15 days before task 2, task 2 with its MSO on March
1 and the only resource capable of doing task 1 gets hit by a truck and
can't be replaced until April, what will happen to task 2? IMHO, the MSO
constraint says task 2 will proceed right according to plan on March 1
anyway. If it can't, if under those circumstances it would be delayed, then
it shouldn't be MSO. Where I see MSOs mainly of use is in the situation
where there are multiple streams in the project, each starting independently
at different times and running in parallel for a while before converging and
we want to set a milestone or task to mark the start of each stream and fix
its start date to something later than the main project start date.
 
J

JulieD

Hi Steve

one of the situations where i have used a MSO with a Start / Finish
relationship is in the offshore oil & gas environment. Here the owners of
the port provide anyone needing to do anything offshore from the port with a
"Work Program" start date & time - if you don't depart from the port at this
time you're up for about $5million per day in penalties - so this (IMHO)
fits nicely with a MSO constraint. However, prior to departing you need to
mobilise the people & equipment to do the Work Program ... but this doesn't
control the situation - therefore (again IMHO) a "start / finish"
relationship with the Work Program as the predecessor is the most accurate
way of reflecting this type of situation - maybe Josh's situation is
something similar (although the 10 day "gap" is odd).

Cheers
JulieD
 
J

Jan De Messemaeker

Hi,

In fact, MSO and MFO fit in all events that are decided outside the project:

- The annual shareholders meeting
- The day Europe introduce the Euro
- Julie's Port schedules indeed
- etcetera

The verb "Must" implies a major (external) force applied upon the project
leader.
And if his schedule gets endangered by bad news, he MUST look for a solution
that fits the date!

HTH
 
R

Renaud Duisit

yeah. right. of course. must have been late when i posted this... sorry for
the wrong advice!!!
 
S

Steve House [MVP]

I would think of your port departure as a "Should" start on rather than a
"Will" start on, which is what I think a Must Start On conveys. MSO to me
means that even if the coast is being battered by a typhoon on that date,
the ship would still sail, heading right out into the storm and it's a
certainty that all your stuff will be on board.

As you said, you need to mobilize all the resources and equipment to be
ready to go on the sailing date. That to me makes it a very strong
deadline, not a constraint. Your business reasons say you absolutely can't
miss the deadline, you absolutely and positively must meet that date under
any circumstances, but even so it's still not a certainty that you will -
the whole reason you're planning is in order to come up with a strategy that
will make it possible to sail then and if you plan incorrectly you won't
make it. If you don't constrain the sailing but instead set the required
departure date as a deadline and let the scheduled sailing date move about
in accordance with Project's calculations, you'll actually see at a glance
whether your present strategy is going to be successful or not. (Obviously
you never show this tentative plan to the powers-that-be until you've
refined it to the point it DOES meet the requirements unless they understand
the exercise.) But an MSO constraint will lock it to that date and Project
will not move it, even if in reality your plan for the tasks leading up to
it makes it totally impossible for it to happen on the date it's scheduled.
Because it's locked to a fixed date, Project will never show you that you
have a problem. IMO, catching such problems before it's too late to do
anything about them is the whole reason for using Project in the first
place. If all you're going to do is mark off some predetermined dates on a
chart and watch as the project proceeds to see if you're on schedule or not,
a calendar and Magic Markers are a lot cheaper <g>. I want first and
foremost for it to confirm whether or not my ideas are going to work as I
think they will and for that purpose it should illustrate the outcome I'm
going to GET if I work according the the plan, not the outcome I WANT. I
want Project to be my reality check. If the proposed schedule for those
preparatory tasks isn't going to result in everthing being ready to go by
the required sailing date, I want to know about it before I get hit with the
5 megabuck penalty and I'm using Project to give me that heads-up by
calculating likely outcomes. If that's to happen, I have to let Project
freely calculate what the sailing date *would* be *if* I worked according to
the present tentative plan. If it doesn't meet the required date, I have to
revise the plan, not just use a constraint to force the sailing date to
appear ok regardless of whether it actually is or not. Yes, I know slack
time can give you that info as well, but the big red indicator beside the
task name, the big green deadline marker on the timescale, and the visual
relationship between the milestone marker and the deadline indicator showing
how close or far away you are from the required solution at the moment is
far more dramatic and clear. And the slack time is calculated on tasks with
a deadline in exactly the same way as it is when the deadline is a
constraint so you don't give up anything.

Just my thoughts ....


--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer/Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs
 
S

Steve House [MVP]

You and I actually agree 100%. In fact, I think of "Must" == "Will" When
expressed as a constraint, though, the target of the "Must" is not the
Project Manager nor the Project Plan, instead it's Project's scheduling
engine. You "must" make this date or you're out of business but when you
input it at as a constraint you're telling Project's engine you "will" make
that date regardless of anything else that's happening in the plan.

Just trying to come up with examples where the "engraved in granite" nature
of the task is obvious. When I look at things like Julie's port schedules I
ask myself, what if that date came and the required men and equipment
weren't in place. To me, MSO implies that the ship still sails, not that
it's delayed and costs you big bucks as a consequence. If the sailing would
be delayed, the sailing date is a successor to the completion milestone of
the preparations, with its true date determined by the schedule of the
process leading up to it. There might be a SNET contraint but it wouldn't
be MSO. The goal now is to get the true date obtained to "synch up" with
the required date. I see the most direct way is to set it as a deadline so
we can see at a glance whether the proposed schedule at this iteration in
the plan's development works or not.

--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer/Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs
 
J

JulieD

Hi Steve

in my port scenario ... that's exactly what happens you sail with the people
/ equipment that you've got ... as mobilisation is generally over a couple
of days you will have at least some of the people & equipment - i don't know
of any times when absolutely no one got there. The other people & equipment
are then either helicoptered to the boat or another boat rendevous with the
first or they simply don't go.

Cheers
JulieD
 
J

JulieD

Hi Steve

see my comments on your other post ... if a cyclone comes through well then
it is a different story ... but when you're planning this sort of work you
do it outside of cyclone season and try not to be too fatelistic :)

I guess in that sense it's like planning any other project - you could plan
to do xyz but there's always (even if it is very slim) a chance that the
company will get taken over and the project will get canned etc but you
can't build all of these scenarios into a project plan.

Cheers
JulieD
 

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