"Start no earlier than" always the same as "Start date"

[mlewanfr]

For each task, I have two important dates: One date before which the
task cannot start, and one deadline.

The Deadline works fine with the deadline field. It is a fixed date,
and I can move the task around freely before it, and I get a warning if
I move the task after the deadline.

However, for the first date, I cannot make this work. I define a
constraint date of type "Start no earlier than". As soon as I move the
task the constraint date follows the task start date.

They are always the same. I change the constraint date, the start date
changes. I change the start date, the constraint date changes.

Question 1) What purpose does the "Start no earlier than" have, when it
is identical to the start date?

Question 2) Is there some other way, where I can have a fixed first
date, similar to the deadline? A "birth line" so to say?

Thanks for you help
Magnus

 

[Steve House [Project MVP]]

When you use MS Project properly, you do NOT supply the dates tasks will
begin. Project's job is to calculate those dates for you based on the
project's over-all start date, the links that represent the required
sequence tasks must occur in, the durations of the various tasks in the
sequence, and the availability of the resources required to do the tasks. I
like to put it as "You don't tell Project the plan you intend to work,
instead Project tells you the plan you'll be able to work." The SNET
constraint is there so the plan can accomodate exceptions to the normal
calculation - The basic calculation may place a task starting on 01 April
but the supplier of the parts required for that task won't be able to
deliver them before 15 April. You put a SNET constraint of 15 April on that
task so Project places it on the date the parts will arrive. It'll never
move earlier than that, but if the tasks leading up to it are delayed or
take longer than expected Project can still push it back later.

Project doesn't document a predetermined schedule - when you begin to enter
data into Project the schedule is unknown and its job is to create it.

 

[mlewanfr]

I don't think I follow you. I do not try to supply dates tasks shall
begin. I try to supply a date before which tasks cannot begin. That's
what I'm unable to do.

Do you say that manual corrections to MS Projects calculated
suggestions are forbidden? Does my wish to modify the output break the
whole application?


I have a number of tasks, a number of resources and a number of time
frames. Some tasks can be performed by anyone in the team. Some tasks
can be performed by only some people. And for some tasks I do not have
the full information. If I can adjust things so resource A does not
perform task 1, as I'm not sure he can handle it, then things are fine.
If not, I have to go through a long fact finding mission trying to
figure out if A can handle it with an unknown amount of training, or if
I have to call in B. I know for sure that A has the skills to perform
one of 1, 2 or 3, but I don't know if he can do all of them.

If MSP allocates A to task 1, you say I'm not allowed to manually move
the task 2 days ahead in time so C can do task 1 instead?

Now D could help reasonably well, but I happen to know that he sits in
a different office from B, who could have provided the needed support.
Besides D and A work well together, but B simply cannot stand C.

Do you say that MS Project demands that I enter all this information in
absolute numbers in the file, and that I'm not allowed to make any
adjustments afterwards? Is ignoring this kind of information what you
mean by using "MS Project properly"?

OK, now I have published the plan, but there was a problem with the
material to perform task 3, so it has to move. I will obviously want to
move as few things as possible, as everyone already is working
according to the published plan. But any single one of the tasks 4, 5,
6, 12 - 18 and 20 could be moved somewhat, even if that implies moving
two more tasks, provided it doesn't affect E, who will retire in the
middle of the project, and whom we cannot afford to train specially for
just one more task.

A human can see that task 7 can be squeezed to half the time with an
undesired but acceptable loss of quality, and task 3 can go in there.
Can a computer program see that?

I cannot see any way to enter this kind of information in Project, and
therefore I would appreciate a way of making manual adjustments.


It seems your answer to my Question 1 is "SNET is used for automatic
calculations, and that only", and I'm willing to accept that. Thanks!

I'm not sure you provided any answer to Question 2, but if you did so,
I'd like a second opinion.

Regards
Magnus

 

[John Sitka]

http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20060208.html

 

[Catfish Hunter]

Steve actually gave you a great answer. If you put a SNET constrant of 4/1 on
a task than the start date is 4/1. What Steve was saying is it's better to
have logic ties rather than constrant dates. This allows you to have a
critical path. That's why it's called CPM (Critical Path Method).
On question 2, you can got to Project>Project Information and set the start
date of you project. Nothing will start before that date. Other than that
you'll need to make logic ties to determine when task will happen when
predicessors slip.
Good Luck

 

[Steve House [Project MVP]]

Project will place the tasks As Soon As Possible if it can. If it thinks
the task can begin April 1st, then that's where it will put the task start.
Now you come along and put on a constraint that say it cannot start before
15 April. So that tells Project to override the ealier date it wanted to
use and put the task to start on 15 April instead. You have said it can't
begin before 15 April so that's where it puts it.

When you put in the date that is the earliest date the task can begin, what
do you expect to see?

In your original post you say that you enter a start no earlier than
constraint and then seem surprised that's where Project places the task.
The start date changes to equal the constraint date you've entered UNLESS
something else pushes it back to start later than that date.

MSP does not allocate resource A, or any other resource, to tasks. YOU
allocate the resources to tasks. If you want C to do the task, you take A
off of it and assign C to do it, Project does not make that decision for you
or even have an opinion on the matter..

MSP does NOT demand you enter all of that as absolute numbers. Indeed, it
doesn't expect you to enter ANY of it as absolute numbers! What it expects
you to enter is:
Project starts 01 April
Task 1 will take 5 days, task 2 will take 15 days, task 3 will take 8 days,
task 4 will take 2 days, task 5 will take 10 days.
Start
Task 1 must complete before tasks 2 and 5 can start.
Task 2 must complete before task 3 can start
Task 3 must complete before task 4 can start
Task 4 must complete before task 5 can start.
Finish
The schedule now reflects there are 2 chains of events leading from start to
finish:
Start->Task1->Task2->Task3->Task4->Task 5->Finish
Start->Task1->Task5->Finish

We have available Resources A, B, & C
Resource B is going on vacation for 1 week starting April 10 and I modify
his resource calendar in Project to reflect the fact he's gone that week.
I know A is qualified to do tasks 2,3,5
I know B is qualified to do task 1,2,3,4
I know C is qualified to do task 2 and 3
For task 1 I assign A to because he's the only one that can do it
For task 2 I assign who I think is better to use, A or B
For task 3 I assign who I think is better to use A, B, or C
For task 4 I pick B because he's the only one who knows how to do it
For task 5 I pick A because he's the only one qualified.

Now I look at the schedule and see if the computed dates meet the business
objectives of the project - finishing on deadline or coming in late. IF it
is, great. If it isn't, I don't go looking at overriding dates, I look at
what factors DRIVE the dates and modify the controlling factor. As task
that B is assigned to is starting later than it other might because he's on
vacation for a week? I take him off the task and put someone else who is
also qualified if that's possible. Project is finishing 5 days after its
deadline? Hmmmm Task 2 is on the critical path and I've only got one guy
assigned yet I have two qualified to do it - I'll put them both on it, then
it will take half as long to finish and my finish moves forward closer to
the deadline I'm required to meet.

You'll note that at no stage in this process have I supplied a date of any
sort for tasks beyond setting the project start date and entering the days
resources will be absent in their individual resource calendars. You seem
to be using constraints to designate a date the task can start because
that's the date the resource is available but if you use the resource
calendars that will happen automatically.

Manual corrections are certainly possible and are part and parcel of the
whole planning process. But you do that by changing the real world factor -
Resource is on vacation when you need him? Find some one else to to do the
task or work around it by resequencing the tasks. Not enough resources to
get it done in the time required? Hire more resources or bring in some
temps ... etc etc - that drives the date rather than trying to directly
"correct" the date by manually overriding it.

How to enter that Task 3 has a problem with material coming late? There's
where you put the SNET constraint to move it back to the date materials will
arrive. When you do, every task dependent of task 3 will also move. If
they DON'T move, you've turned off recalculation, set hard constraints that
prevent them from moving, or entered actual dates that lock them to the
dates the work actually physically took place. Again, you don't put
constraints on the successor tasks to move them to what you think will be
their new dates - you let Project figure that out for you.

Project does not replace your knowledge of the resources and their
qualifications or your expertise on how the project needs to be organized.
What it does is perform all the date calculations and adjustments for you so
you can concentrate on making management decisions that matter.
--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

 

[mlewanfr]

Steve, a lot of interesting information, but still some
misunderstanding on what I want to do.

In your original post you say that you enter a start no earlier than
constraint and then seem surprised that's where Project places the task.

I'm not at all surprised about that. I'm grateful. It saves me a lot of
work. But what vexes me is that I afterwards cannot move the task
manually without loosing the information about when the material
arrived, when the task can start, if I later see a need to move it
back.

Start->Task1->Task2->Task3->Task4->Task 5->Finish
Start->Task1->Task5->Finish

However, in my particular case, there are no tasks that depend on each
other. None. They depend on deadlines, set per task, and when the
material arrives, set per task. I can perform them as 54213 or 12345 or
24513 as long as they each follow the two constraints "material
arrives" and "result needed" set per task.

You seem
to be using constraints to designate a date the task can start because
that's the date the resource is available

Not at all. Not the resource (person in this case) but the material.


This is information for each task I get from an Excel sheet:
1. Material arrives at date.
2. Needed time duration.
3. Result needed at date.

I can neatly import this to Project, but the piece of information 1
disappears when I move the tasks around so that they make sense and so
the same resource doesn't perform the two tasks at the same time.


I don't want to add a dependency between task A and task B just because
they are performed by the same resource. A can come before B or B
before A. The only snag is that they cannot be performed at the same
time, as they are performed by the same resource.

Do I make sense? Does MSP make sense? What's the meaning of life?

Regards
Magnus

 

[Steve House [Project MVP]]

See embedded

....

work. But what vexes me is that I afterwards cannot move the task
manually without loosing the information about when the material
arrived, when the task can start, if I later see a need to move it
back.

That's what I mean by supplying dates yourself. You're still hung up on
trying to move the tasks manually by figuring out the _dates_ where you
think they should be started and then somehow entering those _dates_ in
order to to override Project's calculated dates.

By the way, through all of this keep in mind that entering a date in the
Start column DOES NOT SET A START DATE! It is simply a convenient way
Project provides for you to enter a SNET constraint without having to bring
up the task information form. And similarly entering a Finish does not set
the finish or the duration - it sets a FNET constraint - if you try to enter
both, the only one that is effective is the last one entered. If you get
precise, there is no way to actually manually enter something directly into
the Start and Finish fields - they are read only. You can enter dates into
other fields that may force the Start to take on the same value - SNET or
MSO constraints or Actual Start, for examples - but that is not the same
thing as directly entering it into the field proper.

Your material is not available before a certain date. That certainly does
create a condition where a SNET is appropriate - no disagreement there - and
that is one of the very few sorts of dates you should supply and you're fine
doing that. The lack of materials establishes a "brick wall" earliest
possible date, it's physically impossible for the task to be scheduled
BEFORE that date, and so the only thing we need to be concerned with is if
lack of qualified resources and task priorities forces the task to be LATER
than the SNET constraint date.

If the tasks are truly indpendent - Task A does not produce a module that is
used in task B for example - then you are correct in not using links.
Links, IMHO, represent obligatory sequences that are implicit in the nature
of the process itself - you can't install roof beams until walls are in
place to support them sort of thing. In your case, you're saying that the
task sequencing is based on resource availability. This is where resources
calendars, resource availability, task priority settings and resource
leveling kick into play.

When you create the Project itself you have one or more base calendars that
define the general hours and days that resource's work. One of of those is
selected as the project calendar and controls scheduling of tasks until
specific resources are assigned. When resources are entered, one of the
fields you define is the base calendar that generally describes their
personal hours. Project automatically creates a copy of that calendar under
their name where you enter exceptions such as vacation time off. When you
assign your resource to one of your tasks, after setting the task's SNET
constraint. if any, which sets its initial start date, Project will use
that calendar to schedule the task and move it later than the SNET date if
the resource isn't working that day.

I don't want to add a dependency between task A and task B just because
they are performed by the same resource. A can come before B or B
before A. The only snag is that they cannot be performed at the same
time, as they are performed by the same resource.

That's the job of resource leveling. Again Project starts 03 Apr Let's say
I have I have two tasks A & B, each 5 days duration, both initially
scheduled to start on Mon 03 Apr. Materials for B won't get here until Wed
05 Apr. I set a SNET constraint on B of 05 Apr and Project moves its start
to that date. A starts 03 Apr, B starts 05 Apr. I assign resource Joe to
both of them. That results in him being double booked on Wed, Thur, Fri.
Now I run the Resource Leveling tool in the Tools menu, Project sees that
he's double booked, and moves task B to the following week. Now A starts 03
Apr and B starts 10 Apr. B's Start is 10 Apr but the constraint hasn't
changed and I'll still see 05 Apr in the constraint date on the task
information advanced tab if I care to look, and I haven't supplied the
revised 10 Apr start date either. I've told project about when the
resources ARE available and it's calculated that's the earliest possible
start date for me based on both the arrival on the materials and the other
work the resource must do. If that's too late, you might substitute someone
else on task B and Project can move it forward again, back up to the SNET
constraint date. If it matters which of the two conflicting tasks is done
first for some reason, setting a higher prioirty number in the task
information on the one you want done first will cause project to
preferentially delay the other, lower priority task. If you want him to
work on A until B's parts get here, then shift over to B until it's done,
and then go back to A, set B with the higher priority and let leveling split
tasks. I'll reiterate - at no point have we actually figured out a start
(or finish) date for a task and supplied Project with that date information.
The only date we have supplied is information about a physically impossible
to cross boundary date.

Remember it's designed to do all the scheduling work for you. It doesn't
document the schedule you want. It takes the information you give it about
the conditions influencing and controlling the project and uses that to tell
you the best schedule you can reasonably expect to get under those
conditions. You supply Project with the base information - supplies for the
Wax Widgets task won't arrive before X date, Joe is on vacation from Y to Z,
Joe can only be scheduled for a maximum of 8 man-hours of work in a day, I
want Joe to wax the widegets, etc - you *would* use to calculate the date if
you were doing it yourself and it figures out the dates for you.

 

[mlewanfr]

Food for a lot of thought! Thanks! I'll get straight to it when I'm
back on work tomorrow.

Regards
Magnus

 

[mlewanfr]

OK. I follow you, Steve, and I see the use of resource levelling much
better than I did before.

However, I'm still not happy. I still don't feel I'm as much in control
as I need to be.

One more example:

I have the tasks A, B, C, D and E and just one resource X to simplify.
I level the resources, and MPP suggests A the first week, B the second
week, C the third week and so on.

A -----
B -----
C -----
D -----
E -----

I'm happy with this. I publish the plan. Other departments look at the
plan, and accordingly make their own resources available. Someone from
department I can interact with resource X for task A during week one,
someone from department IV for task E during week five and so on.

I now have five different departments who depend on my planning.

Some time into the project a problem arises. It turns out that task B
will take two weeks instead of one.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

I change the duration to two weeks. I re-level. And all the tasks are
moved around.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

This means that the planning I published to five different departments
now fits none of them. (I imagine there is a certain risk that even A
will be moved, even though it is in the past?)

If I had been able to/allowed to change things manually, I would simply
have moved B to the end and E to fill the empty spot between A and C.
This impacts just two departments instead of the whole organisation.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

How would I go about to do that, if I'm not allowed to touch the start
dates?

Regards
Magnus

 

[Mike Glen]

Hi Magnus,

Double-click on Task B and in the Task Information dialog, General tab, make
the priority, say, 400. This will make it of lesser priority than the
others which still have the default value of 500. (1000 means "do not
level".) Now in the Tools/Level resources.../Resource Levelling dialog, be
sure to select Levelling Order: Priority,Standard. That should do the trick


Hope this helps - please let us know how you get on

Mike Glen
MS Project MVP

OK. I follow you, Steve, and I see the use of resource levelling much
better than I did before.

However, I'm still not happy. I still don't feel I'm as much in
control as I need to be.

One more example:

I have the tasks A, B, C, D and E and just one resource X to simplify.
I level the resources, and MPP suggests A the first week, B the second
week, C the third week and so on.

A -----
B -----
C -----
D -----
E -----

I'm happy with this. I publish the plan. Other departments look at the
plan, and accordingly make their own resources available. Someone from
department I can interact with resource X for task A during week one,
someone from department IV for task E during week five and so on.

I now have five different departments who depend on my planning.

Some time into the project a problem arises. It turns out that task B
will take two weeks instead of one.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

I change the duration to two weeks. I re-level. And all the tasks are
moved around.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

This means that the planning I published to five different departments
now fits none of them. (I imagine there is a certain risk that even A
will be moved, even though it is in the past?)

If I had been able to/allowed to change things manually, I would
simply have moved B to the end and E to fill the empty spot between A
and C. This impacts just two departments instead of the whole
organisation.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

How would I go about to do that, if I'm not allowed to touch the start
dates?

Regards
Magnus

See embedded

...

work. But what vexes me is that I afterwards cannot move the task
manually without loosing the information about when the material
arrived, when the task can start, if I later see a need to move it
back.

That's what I mean by supplying dates yourself. You're still hung
up on trying to move the tasks manually by figuring out the _dates_
where you think they should be started and then somehow entering
those _dates_ in order to to override Project's calculated dates.

By the way, through all of this keep in mind that entering a date in
the Start column DOES NOT SET A START DATE! It is simply a
convenient way Project provides for you to enter a SNET constraint
without having to bring up the task information form. And similarly
entering a Finish does not set the finish or the duration - it sets
a FNET constraint - if you try to enter both, the only one that is
effective is the last one entered. If you get precise, there is no
way to actually manually enter something directly into the Start and
Finish fields - they are read only. You can enter dates into other
fields that may force the Start to take on the same value - SNET or
MSO constraints or Actual Start, for examples - but that is not the
same thing as directly entering it into the field proper.

Your material is not available before a certain date. That
certainly does create a condition where a SNET is appropriate - no
disagreement there - and that is one of the very few sorts of dates
you should supply and you're fine doing that. The lack of materials
establishes a "brick wall" earliest possible date, it's physically
impossible for the task to be scheduled BEFORE that date, and so the
only thing we need to be concerned with is if lack of qualified
resources and task priorities forces the task to be LATER than the
SNET constraint date.

If the tasks are truly indpendent - Task A does not produce a module
that is used in task B for example - then you are correct in not
using links. Links, IMHO, represent obligatory sequences that are
implicit in the nature of the process itself - you can't install
roof beams until walls are in place to support them sort of thing.
In your case, you're saying that the task sequencing is based on
resource availability. This is where resources calendars, resource
availability, task priority settings and resource leveling kick into
play.

When you create the Project itself you have one or more base
calendars that define the general hours and days that resource's
work. One of of those is selected as the project calendar and
controls scheduling of tasks until specific resources are assigned.
When resources are entered, one of the fields you define is the base
calendar that generally describes their personal hours. Project
automatically creates a copy of that calendar under their name where
you enter exceptions such as vacation time off. When you assign
your resource to one of your tasks, after setting the task's SNET
constraint. if any, which sets its initial start date, Project will
use that calendar to schedule the task and move it later than the
SNET date if the resource isn't working that day.

I don't want to add a dependency between task A and task B just
because they are performed by the same resource. A can come before
B or B before A. The only snag is that they cannot be performed at
the same time, as they are performed by the same resource.

That's the job of resource leveling. Again Project starts 03 Apr
Let's say I have I have two tasks A & B, each 5 days duration, both
initially scheduled to start on Mon 03 Apr. Materials for B won't
get here until Wed 05 Apr. I set a SNET constraint on B of 05 Apr
and Project moves its start to that date. A starts 03 Apr, B starts
05 Apr. I assign resource Joe to both of them. That results in him
being double booked on Wed, Thur, Fri. Now I run the Resource
Leveling tool in the Tools menu, Project sees that he's double
booked, and moves task B to the following week. Now A starts 03 Apr
and B starts 10 Apr. B's Start is 10 Apr but the constraint hasn't
changed and I'll still see 05 Apr in the constraint date on the task
information advanced tab if I care to look, and I haven't supplied
the revised 10 Apr start date either. I've told project about when
the resources ARE available and it's calculated that's the earliest
possible start date for me based on both the arrival on the
materials and the other work the resource must do. If that's too
late, you might substitute someone else on task B and Project can
move it forward again, back up to the SNET constraint date. If it
matters which of the two conflicting tasks is done first for some
reason, setting a higher prioirty number in the task information on
the one you want done first will cause project to preferentially
delay the other, lower priority task. If you want him to work on A
until B's parts get here, then shift over to B until it's done, and
then go back to A, set B with the higher priority and let leveling
split tasks. I'll reiterate - at no point have we actually figured
out a start (or finish) date for a task and supplied Project with
that date information. The only date we have supplied is information
about a physically impossible to cross boundary date.

Remember it's designed to do all the scheduling work for you. It
doesn't document the schedule you want. It takes the information
you give it about the conditions influencing and controlling the
project and uses that to tell you the best schedule you can
reasonably expect to get under those conditions. You supply Project
with the base information - supplies for the Wax Widgets task won't
arrive before X date, Joe is on vacation from Y to Z, Joe can only
be scheduled for a maximum of 8 man-hours of work in a day, I want
Joe to wax the widegets, etc - you *would* use to calculate the date
if you were doing it yourself and it figures out the dates for you.

--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

Steve, a lot of interesting information, but still some
misunderstanding on what I want to do.

Steve House [Project MVP] wrote:
In your original post you say that you enter a start no earlier
than constraint and then seem surprised that's where Project
places the task.

I'm not at all surprised about that. I'm grateful. It saves me a
lot of work. But what vexes me is that I afterwards cannot move the
task manually without loosing the information about when the
material arrived, when the task can start, if I later see a need to
move it back.

Start->Task1->Task2->Task3->Task4->Task 5->Finish
Start->Task1->Task5->Finish

However, in my particular case, there are no tasks that depend on
each other. None. They depend on deadlines, set per task, and when
the material arrives, set per task. I can perform them as 54213 or
12345 or 24513 as long as they each follow the two constraints
"material arrives" and "result needed" set per task.

You seem
to be using constraints to designate a date the task can start
because that's the date the resource is available

Not at all. Not the resource (person in this case) but the material.


This is information for each task I get from an Excel sheet:
1. Material arrives at date.
2. Needed time duration.
3. Result needed at date.

I can neatly import this to Project, but the piece of information 1
disappears when I move the tasks around so that they make sense and
so the same resource doesn't perform the two tasks at the same time.


I don't want to add a dependency between task A and task B just
because they are performed by the same resource. A can come before
B or B before A. The only snag is that they cannot be performed at
the same time, as they are performed by the same resource.

Do I make sense? Does MSP make sense? What's the meaning of life?

Regards
Magnus

 

[Steve House [Project MVP]]

Investigate the way the task priority settings control leveling behavior.
The higher the priority number, the more reluctant Project is to delay it.
If I have Task A 5 days, Task B 2 days with the same priority setting (500
by default) and the same resource assigned to both, when I level B will be
moved to the end after A completes. But if I set task B to a priority
higher than A, say 600 to A's 500, leveling will have B run first and push A
back to start after B is done. So in your example set the priority of A to
700, E to 600, C leave at 500, D to 400, and B to 300.

A, or any other work that has been done, will never be moved by leveling if
you have entered its progress as Actual rather than simply updated the Start
and Finish fields. History is history and leveling respects that. If part
of the work has been done on a task leveling might split it and move the
unworked portions if you let it but leveling never moves actual work
completed.
--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

OK. I follow you, Steve, and I see the use of resource levelling much
better than I did before.

However, I'm still not happy. I still don't feel I'm as much in control
as I need to be.

One more example:

I have the tasks A, B, C, D and E and just one resource X to simplify.
I level the resources, and MPP suggests A the first week, B the second
week, C the third week and so on.

A -----
B -----
C -----
D -----
E -----

I'm happy with this. I publish the plan. Other departments look at the
plan, and accordingly make their own resources available. Someone from
department I can interact with resource X for task A during week one,
someone from department IV for task E during week five and so on.

I now have five different departments who depend on my planning.

Some time into the project a problem arises. It turns out that task B
will take two weeks instead of one.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

I change the duration to two weeks. I re-level. And all the tasks are
moved around.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

This means that the planning I published to five different departments
now fits none of them. (I imagine there is a certain risk that even A
will be moved, even though it is in the past?)

If I had been able to/allowed to change things manually, I would simply
have moved B to the end and E to fill the empty spot between A and C.
This impacts just two departments instead of the whole organisation.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

How would I go about to do that, if I'm not allowed to touch the start
dates?

Regards
Magnus

See embedded

...

work. But what vexes me is that I afterwards cannot move the task
manually without loosing the information about when the material
arrived, when the task can start, if I later see a need to move it
back.

That's what I mean by supplying dates yourself. You're still hung up on
trying to move the tasks manually by figuring out the _dates_ where you
think they should be started and then somehow entering those _dates_ in
order to to override Project's calculated dates.

By the way, through all of this keep in mind that entering a date in the
Start column DOES NOT SET A START DATE! It is simply a convenient way
Project provides for you to enter a SNET constraint without having to
bring
up the task information form. And similarly entering a Finish does not
set
the finish or the duration - it sets a FNET constraint - if you try to
enter
both, the only one that is effective is the last one entered. If you get
precise, there is no way to actually manually enter something directly
into
the Start and Finish fields - they are read only. You can enter dates
into
other fields that may force the Start to take on the same value - SNET or
MSO constraints or Actual Start, for examples - but that is not the same
thing as directly entering it into the field proper.

Your material is not available before a certain date. That certainly
does
create a condition where a SNET is appropriate - no disagreement there -
and
that is one of the very few sorts of dates you should supply and you're
fine
doing that. The lack of materials establishes a "brick wall" earliest
possible date, it's physically impossible for the task to be scheduled
BEFORE that date, and so the only thing we need to be concerned with is
if
lack of qualified resources and task priorities forces the task to be
LATER
than the SNET constraint date.

If the tasks are truly indpendent - Task A does not produce a module that
is
used in task B for example - then you are correct in not using links.
Links, IMHO, represent obligatory sequences that are implicit in the
nature
of the process itself - you can't install roof beams until walls are in
place to support them sort of thing. In your case, you're saying that
the
task sequencing is based on resource availability. This is where
resources
calendars, resource availability, task priority settings and resource
leveling kick into play.

When you create the Project itself you have one or more base calendars
that
define the general hours and days that resource's work. One of of those
is
selected as the project calendar and controls scheduling of tasks until
specific resources are assigned. When resources are entered, one of the
fields you define is the base calendar that generally describes their
personal hours. Project automatically creates a copy of that calendar
under
their name where you enter exceptions such as vacation time off. When
you
assign your resource to one of your tasks, after setting the task's SNET
constraint. if any, which sets its initial start date, Project will use
that calendar to schedule the task and move it later than the SNET date
if
the resource isn't working that day.

I don't want to add a dependency between task A and task B just because
they are performed by the same resource. A can come before B or B
before A. The only snag is that they cannot be performed at the same
time, as they are performed by the same resource.

That's the job of resource leveling. Again Project starts 03 Apr Let's
say
I have I have two tasks A & B, each 5 days duration, both initially
scheduled to start on Mon 03 Apr. Materials for B won't get here until
Wed
05 Apr. I set a SNET constraint on B of 05 Apr and Project moves its
start
to that date. A starts 03 Apr, B starts 05 Apr. I assign resource Joe to
both of them. That results in him being double booked on Wed, Thur, Fri.
Now I run the Resource Leveling tool in the Tools menu, Project sees that
he's double booked, and moves task B to the following week. Now A starts
03
Apr and B starts 10 Apr. B's Start is 10 Apr but the constraint hasn't
changed and I'll still see 05 Apr in the constraint date on the task
information advanced tab if I care to look, and I haven't supplied the
revised 10 Apr start date either. I've told project about when the
resources ARE available and it's calculated that's the earliest possible
start date for me based on both the arrival on the materials and the
other
work the resource must do. If that's too late, you might substitute
someone
else on task B and Project can move it forward again, back up to the SNET
constraint date. If it matters which of the two conflicting tasks is
done
first for some reason, setting a higher prioirty number in the task
information on the one you want done first will cause project to
preferentially delay the other, lower priority task. If you want him to
work on A until B's parts get here, then shift over to B until it's done,
and then go back to A, set B with the higher priority and let leveling
split
tasks. I'll reiterate - at no point have we actually figured out a start
(or finish) date for a task and supplied Project with that date
information.
The only date we have supplied is information about a physically
impossible
to cross boundary date.

Remember it's designed to do all the scheduling work for you. It doesn't
document the schedule you want. It takes the information you give it
about
the conditions influencing and controlling the project and uses that to
tell
you the best schedule you can reasonably expect to get under those
conditions. You supply Project with the base information - supplies for
the
Wax Widgets task won't arrive before X date, Joe is on vacation from Y to
Z,
Joe can only be scheduled for a maximum of 8 man-hours of work in a day,
I
want Joe to wax the widegets, etc - you *would* use to calculate the date
if
you were doing it yourself and it figures out the dates for you.

--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

Steve, a lot of interesting information, but still some
misunderstanding on what I want to do.

Steve House [Project MVP] wrote:
In your original post you say that you enter a start no earlier than
constraint and then seem surprised that's where Project places the
task.

I'm not at all surprised about that. I'm grateful. It saves me a lot of
work. But what vexes me is that I afterwards cannot move the task
manually without loosing the information about when the material
arrived, when the task can start, if I later see a need to move it
back.

Start->Task1->Task2->Task3->Task4->Task 5->Finish
Start->Task1->Task5->Finish

However, in my particular case, there are no tasks that depend on each
other. None. They depend on deadlines, set per task, and when the
material arrives, set per task. I can perform them as 54213 or 12345 or
24513 as long as they each follow the two constraints "material
arrives" and "result needed" set per task.

You seem
to be using constraints to designate a date the task can start because
that's the date the resource is available

Not at all. Not the resource (person in this case) but the material.


This is information for each task I get from an Excel sheet:
1. Material arrives at date.
2. Needed time duration.
3. Result needed at date.

I can neatly import this to Project, but the piece of information 1
disappears when I move the tasks around so that they make sense and so
the same resource doesn't perform the two tasks at the same time.


I don't want to add a dependency between task A and task B just because
they are performed by the same resource. A can come before B or B
before A. The only snag is that they cannot be performed at the same
time, as they are performed by the same resource.

Do I make sense? Does MSP make sense? What's the meaning of life?

Regards
Magnus

 

[mlewanfr]

Perfect! All solved! ...for the moment. Thanks a lot.

Magnus

Hi Magnus,

Double-click on Task B and in the Task Information dialog, General tab, make
the priority, say, 400. This will make it of lesser priority than the
others which still have the default value of 500. (1000 means "do not
level".) Now in the Tools/Level resources.../Resource Levelling dialog, be
sure to select Levelling Order: Priority,Standard. That should do the trick


Hope this helps - please let us know how you get on

Mike Glen
MS Project MVP

OK. I follow you, Steve, and I see the use of resource levelling much
better than I did before.

However, I'm still not happy. I still don't feel I'm as much in
control as I need to be.

One more example:

I have the tasks A, B, C, D and E and just one resource X to simplify.
I level the resources, and MPP suggests A the first week, B the second
week, C the third week and so on.

A -----
B -----
C -----
D -----
E -----

I'm happy with this. I publish the plan. Other departments look at the
plan, and accordingly make their own resources available. Someone from
department I can interact with resource X for task A during week one,
someone from department IV for task E during week five and so on.

I now have five different departments who depend on my planning.

Some time into the project a problem arises. It turns out that task B
will take two weeks instead of one.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

I change the duration to two weeks. I re-level. And all the tasks are
moved around.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

This means that the planning I published to five different departments
now fits none of them. (I imagine there is a certain risk that even A
will be moved, even though it is in the past?)

If I had been able to/allowed to change things manually, I would
simply have moved B to the end and E to fill the empty spot between A
and C. This impacts just two departments instead of the whole
organisation.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

How would I go about to do that, if I'm not allowed to touch the start
dates?

Regards
Magnus

See embedded

...
work. But what vexes me is that I afterwards cannot move the task
manually without loosing the information about when the material
arrived, when the task can start, if I later see a need to move it
back.

That's what I mean by supplying dates yourself. You're still hung
up on trying to move the tasks manually by figuring out the _dates_
where you think they should be started and then somehow entering
those _dates_ in order to to override Project's calculated dates.

By the way, through all of this keep in mind that entering a date in
the Start column DOES NOT SET A START DATE! It is simply a
convenient way Project provides for you to enter a SNET constraint
without having to bring up the task information form. And similarly
entering a Finish does not set the finish or the duration - it sets
a FNET constraint - if you try to enter both, the only one that is
effective is the last one entered. If you get precise, there is no
way to actually manually enter something directly into the Start and
Finish fields - they are read only. You can enter dates into other
fields that may force the Start to take on the same value - SNET or
MSO constraints or Actual Start, for examples - but that is not the
same thing as directly entering it into the field proper.

Your material is not available before a certain date. That
certainly does create a condition where a SNET is appropriate - no
disagreement there - and that is one of the very few sorts of dates
you should supply and you're fine doing that. The lack of materials
establishes a "brick wall" earliest possible date, it's physically
impossible for the task to be scheduled BEFORE that date, and so the
only thing we need to be concerned with is if lack of qualified
resources and task priorities forces the task to be LATER than the
SNET constraint date.

If the tasks are truly indpendent - Task A does not produce a module
that is used in task B for example - then you are correct in not
using links. Links, IMHO, represent obligatory sequences that are
implicit in the nature of the process itself - you can't install
roof beams until walls are in place to support them sort of thing.
In your case, you're saying that the task sequencing is based on
resource availability. This is where resources calendars, resource
availability, task priority settings and resource leveling kick into
play.

When you create the Project itself you have one or more base
calendars that define the general hours and days that resource's
work. One of of those is selected as the project calendar and
controls scheduling of tasks until specific resources are assigned.
When resources are entered, one of the fields you define is the base
calendar that generally describes their personal hours. Project
automatically creates a copy of that calendar under their name where
you enter exceptions such as vacation time off. When you assign
your resource to one of your tasks, after setting the task's SNET
constraint. if any, which sets its initial start date, Project will
use that calendar to schedule the task and move it later than the
SNET date if the resource isn't working that day.

I don't want to add a dependency between task A and task B just
because they are performed by the same resource. A can come before
B or B before A. The only snag is that they cannot be performed at
the same time, as they are performed by the same resource.


That's the job of resource leveling. Again Project starts 03 Apr
Let's say I have I have two tasks A & B, each 5 days duration, both
initially scheduled to start on Mon 03 Apr. Materials for B won't
get here until Wed 05 Apr. I set a SNET constraint on B of 05 Apr
and Project moves its start to that date. A starts 03 Apr, B starts
05 Apr. I assign resource Joe to both of them. That results in him
being double booked on Wed, Thur, Fri. Now I run the Resource
Leveling tool in the Tools menu, Project sees that he's double
booked, and moves task B to the following week. Now A starts 03 Apr
and B starts 10 Apr. B's Start is 10 Apr but the constraint hasn't
changed and I'll still see 05 Apr in the constraint date on the task
information advanced tab if I care to look, and I haven't supplied
the revised 10 Apr start date either. I've told project about when
the resources ARE available and it's calculated that's the earliest
possible start date for me based on both the arrival on the
materials and the other work the resource must do. If that's too
late, you might substitute someone else on task B and Project can
move it forward again, back up to the SNET constraint date. If it
matters which of the two conflicting tasks is done first for some
reason, setting a higher prioirty number in the task information on
the one you want done first will cause project to preferentially
delay the other, lower priority task. If you want him to work on A
until B's parts get here, then shift over to B until it's done, and
then go back to A, set B with the higher priority and let leveling
split tasks. I'll reiterate - at no point have we actually figured
out a start (or finish) date for a task and supplied Project with
that date information. The only date we have supplied is information
about a physically impossible to cross boundary date.

Remember it's designed to do all the scheduling work for you. It
doesn't document the schedule you want. It takes the information
you give it about the conditions influencing and controlling the
project and uses that to tell you the best schedule you can
reasonably expect to get under those conditions. You supply Project
with the base information - supplies for the Wax Widgets task won't
arrive before X date, Joe is on vacation from Y to Z, Joe can only
be scheduled for a maximum of 8 man-hours of work in a day, I want
Joe to wax the widegets, etc - you *would* use to calculate the date
if you were doing it yourself and it figures out the dates for you.

--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs


Steve, a lot of interesting information, but still some
misunderstanding on what I want to do.

Steve House [Project MVP] wrote:
In your original post you say that you enter a start no earlier
than constraint and then seem surprised that's where Project
places the task.

I'm not at all surprised about that. I'm grateful. It saves me a
lot of work. But what vexes me is that I afterwards cannot move the
task manually without loosing the information about when the
material arrived, when the task can start, if I later see a need to
move it back.

Start->Task1->Task2->Task3->Task4->Task 5->Finish
Start->Task1->Task5->Finish

However, in my particular case, there are no tasks that depend on
each other. None. They depend on deadlines, set per task, and when
the material arrives, set per task. I can perform them as 54213 or
12345 or 24513 as long as they each follow the two constraints
"material arrives" and "result needed" set per task.

You seem
to be using constraints to designate a date the task can start
because that's the date the resource is available

Not at all. Not the resource (person in this case) but the material.


This is information for each task I get from an Excel sheet:
1. Material arrives at date.
2. Needed time duration.
3. Result needed at date.

I can neatly import this to Project, but the piece of information 1
disappears when I move the tasks around so that they make sense and
so the same resource doesn't perform the two tasks at the same time.


I don't want to add a dependency between task A and task B just
because they are performed by the same resource. A can come before
B or B before A. The only snag is that they cannot be performed at
the same time, as they are performed by the same resource.

Do I make sense? Does MSP make sense? What's the meaning of life?

Regards
Magnus

 

[mlewanfr]

Just the info I was looking for! Thanks!

Magnus

Investigate the way the task priority settings control leveling behavior.
The higher the priority number, the more reluctant Project is to delay it.
If I have Task A 5 days, Task B 2 days with the same priority setting (500
by default) and the same resource assigned to both, when I level B will be
moved to the end after A completes. But if I set task B to a priority
higher than A, say 600 to A's 500, leveling will have B run first and push A
back to start after B is done. So in your example set the priority of A to
700, E to 600, C leave at 500, D to 400, and B to 300.

A, or any other work that has been done, will never be moved by leveling if
you have entered its progress as Actual rather than simply updated the Start
and Finish fields. History is history and leveling respects that. If part
of the work has been done on a task leveling might split it and move the
unworked portions if you let it but leveling never moves actual work
completed.
--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

OK. I follow you, Steve, and I see the use of resource levelling much
better than I did before.

However, I'm still not happy. I still don't feel I'm as much in control
as I need to be.

One more example:

I have the tasks A, B, C, D and E and just one resource X to simplify.
I level the resources, and MPP suggests A the first week, B the second
week, C the third week and so on.

A -----
B -----
C -----
D -----
E -----

I'm happy with this. I publish the plan. Other departments look at the
plan, and accordingly make their own resources available. Someone from
department I can interact with resource X for task A during week one,
someone from department IV for task E during week five and so on.

I now have five different departments who depend on my planning.

Some time into the project a problem arises. It turns out that task B
will take two weeks instead of one.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

I change the duration to two weeks. I re-level. And all the tasks are
moved around.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

This means that the planning I published to five different departments
now fits none of them. (I imagine there is a certain risk that even A
will be moved, even though it is in the past?)

If I had been able to/allowed to change things manually, I would simply
have moved B to the end and E to fill the empty spot between A and C.
This impacts just two departments instead of the whole organisation.

A -----
B ----------
C -----
D -----
E -----

How would I go about to do that, if I'm not allowed to touch the start
dates?

Regards
Magnus

See embedded

...
work. But what vexes me is that I afterwards cannot move the task
manually without loosing the information about when the material
arrived, when the task can start, if I later see a need to move it
back.

That's what I mean by supplying dates yourself. You're still hung up on
trying to move the tasks manually by figuring out the _dates_ where you
think they should be started and then somehow entering those _dates_ in
order to to override Project's calculated dates.

By the way, through all of this keep in mind that entering a date in the
Start column DOES NOT SET A START DATE! It is simply a convenient way
Project provides for you to enter a SNET constraint without having to
bring
up the task information form. And similarly entering a Finish does not
set
the finish or the duration - it sets a FNET constraint - if you try to
enter
both, the only one that is effective is the last one entered. If you get
precise, there is no way to actually manually enter something directly
into
the Start and Finish fields - they are read only. You can enter dates
into
other fields that may force the Start to take on the same value - SNET or
MSO constraints or Actual Start, for examples - but that is not the same
thing as directly entering it into the field proper.

Your material is not available before a certain date. That certainly
does
create a condition where a SNET is appropriate - no disagreement there -
and
that is one of the very few sorts of dates you should supply and you're
fine
doing that. The lack of materials establishes a "brick wall" earliest
possible date, it's physically impossible for the task to be scheduled
BEFORE that date, and so the only thing we need to be concerned with is
if
lack of qualified resources and task priorities forces the task to be
LATER
than the SNET constraint date.

If the tasks are truly indpendent - Task A does not produce a module that
is
used in task B for example - then you are correct in not using links.
Links, IMHO, represent obligatory sequences that are implicit in the
nature
of the process itself - you can't install roof beams until walls are in
place to support them sort of thing. In your case, you're saying that
the
task sequencing is based on resource availability. This is where
resources
calendars, resource availability, task priority settings and resource
leveling kick into play.

When you create the Project itself you have one or more base calendars
that
define the general hours and days that resource's work. One of of those
is
selected as the project calendar and controls scheduling of tasks until
specific resources are assigned. When resources are entered, one of the
fields you define is the base calendar that generally describes their
personal hours. Project automatically creates a copy of that calendar
under
their name where you enter exceptions such as vacation time off. When
you
assign your resource to one of your tasks, after setting the task's SNET
constraint. if any, which sets its initial start date, Project will use
that calendar to schedule the task and move it later than the SNET date
if
the resource isn't working that day.

I don't want to add a dependency between task A and task B just because
they are performed by the same resource. A can come before B or B
before A. The only snag is that they cannot be performed at the same
time, as they are performed by the same resource.


That's the job of resource leveling. Again Project starts 03 Apr Let's
say
I have I have two tasks A & B, each 5 days duration, both initially
scheduled to start on Mon 03 Apr. Materials for B won't get here until
Wed
05 Apr. I set a SNET constraint on B of 05 Apr and Project moves its
start
to that date. A starts 03 Apr, B starts 05 Apr. I assign resource Joe to
both of them. That results in him being double booked on Wed, Thur, Fri.
Now I run the Resource Leveling tool in the Tools menu, Project sees that
he's double booked, and moves task B to the following week. Now A starts
03
Apr and B starts 10 Apr. B's Start is 10 Apr but the constraint hasn't
changed and I'll still see 05 Apr in the constraint date on the task
information advanced tab if I care to look, and I haven't supplied the
revised 10 Apr start date either. I've told project about when the
resources ARE available and it's calculated that's the earliest possible
start date for me based on both the arrival on the materials and the
other
work the resource must do. If that's too late, you might substitute
someone
else on task B and Project can move it forward again, back up to the SNET
constraint date. If it matters which of the two conflicting tasks is
done
first for some reason, setting a higher prioirty number in the task
information on the one you want done first will cause project to
preferentially delay the other, lower priority task. If you want him to
work on A until B's parts get here, then shift over to B until it's done,
and then go back to A, set B with the higher priority and let leveling
split
tasks. I'll reiterate - at no point have we actually figured out a start
(or finish) date for a task and supplied Project with that date
information.
The only date we have supplied is information about a physically
impossible
to cross boundary date.

Remember it's designed to do all the scheduling work for you. It doesn't
document the schedule you want. It takes the information you give it
about
the conditions influencing and controlling the project and uses that to
tell
you the best schedule you can reasonably expect to get under those
conditions. You supply Project with the base information - supplies for
the
Wax Widgets task won't arrive before X date, Joe is on vacation from Y to
Z,
Joe can only be scheduled for a maximum of 8 man-hours of work in a day,
I
want Joe to wax the widegets, etc - you *would* use to calculate the date
if
you were doing it yourself and it figures out the dates for you.

--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs


Steve, a lot of interesting information, but still some
misunderstanding on what I want to do.

Steve House [Project MVP] wrote:
In your original post you say that you enter a start no earlier than
constraint and then seem surprised that's where Project places the
task.

I'm not at all surprised about that. I'm grateful. It saves me a lot of
work. But what vexes me is that I afterwards cannot move the task
manually without loosing the information about when the material
arrived, when the task can start, if I later see a need to move it
back.

Start->Task1->Task2->Task3->Task4->Task 5->Finish
Start->Task1->Task5->Finish

However, in my particular case, there are no tasks that depend on each
other. None. They depend on deadlines, set per task, and when the
material arrives, set per task. I can perform them as 54213 or 12345 or
24513 as long as they each follow the two constraints "material
arrives" and "result needed" set per task.

You seem
to be using constraints to designate a date the task can start because
that's the date the resource is available

Not at all. Not the resource (person in this case) but the material.


This is information for each task I get from an Excel sheet:
1. Material arrives at date.
2. Needed time duration.
3. Result needed at date.

I can neatly import this to Project, but the piece of information 1
disappears when I move the tasks around so that they make sense and so
the same resource doesn't perform the two tasks at the same time.


I don't want to add a dependency between task A and task B just because
they are performed by the same resource. A can come before B or B
before A. The only snag is that they cannot be performed at the same
time, as they are performed by the same resource.

Do I make sense? Does MSP make sense? What's the meaning of life?

Regards
Magnus

 

[Mike Glen]

You're welcome, Magnus

Mike Glen
MS Project MVP